8 ms·

Startup is about to install bladeless rooftop wind turbines on box buildings

118 points by peutetre 2y ago

jncfhnb 2y ago
What’s the meaning of a 50kW unit with a 5kW generator?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  You put ten of them in a row. Click through to the PDF. "50 kW system of 10 units occupying 50 m"
walthamstow 2y ago
These devices are a lot like the cooling towers on ancient and modern Persian buildings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher
thinkcontext 2y ago
Another article says the company is claims > The scalable, “motionless” wind energy unit can produce 50% more energy than rooftop solar at the same cost, said the company. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/05/23/bladeless-wind-energy-innovation-aims-to-compete-with-rooftop-solar https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/05/23/bladeless-wind-energy...
- fragmede 2y ago
  put solar panels on top of the wind unit
amanzi 2y ago
The PDF linked to in the article explains how it works: https://26011849.fs1.hubspotusercontent-eu1.net/hubfs/26011849/Aeromine%20Website/downloads/Aeromine%205000%20Wind%20system%20brochure%202023.pdf https://26011849.fs1.hubspotusercontent-eu1.net/hubfs/260118... Obviously, it's not bladeless - you just can't see the blades. Page 4 of the PDF explains how it works: the airfoils create a vacuum above the propeller, which then sucks air from below, which generates the power.
ElectricBoogie 2y ago
I'm glad they're sticking these only on box buildings, other shapes might not work so well.
pedalpete 2y ago
I wonder if they could also use these as mounting platforms for mobile tower antennae? We have a bunch of buildings where I live that are covered in black panels for antenae, rather than competing for space, it would be nice to see these as dual use.
Animats 2y ago
This needs a third-party evaluation. Nobody gets that much power from rooftop wind with small devices. Usually you need at least 16 square meters of intake area to get 5KW. Some similar devices with iffy claims: - EIP - encased turbine for rooftop mounting [1] - Sheerwind (active about 2014-2017) Really big funnels. [2] Critique: [3] If ducting a wind turbine would help, everyone would be doing it. [1] http://eiptechnologies.com/ http://eiptechnologies.com/ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20171221050330/http://sheerwind.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171221050330/http://sheerwind.... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtjKXb5gko0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtjKXb5gko0
- metadat 2y ago
  Yes, their generation numbers are not definitively defined in TFA, not even as a concrete typical range.
- goda90 2y ago
  Here's another one, Ventum VX175: https://ventumdynamics.com/ https://ventumdynamics.com/ Regarding what you said about ducting, I don't think that's a fair assessment. Really big turbines are the biggest bang for your buck, but they aren't exactly duct-able. And on the flip side, really big turbines can't be built in a lot of places. So the question is, does ducting help smaller scale turbines, and will placing smaller scale turbines where big turbines won't fit going to be worthwhile?
  - Animats 2y ago
    > So the question is, does ducting help smaller scale turbines, and will placing smaller scale turbines where big turbines won't fit going to be worthwhile? Simple ducting does help some. A group at Clarkson has been working on this. They have a wind tunnel, so they can get solid data. [1] They have a simple duct around a standard wind turbine. This gives the effect of more intake area, and they get almost twice the output power. Unclear if this is cheaper than just increasing the blade length. Many people have been down this road. There are many, many variants on experimental ducted wind turbines. Just search for "ducted wind turbine". There are very few installations. Here's one of the few.[2] They're demo installations on college campuses. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxA-RkwuRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxA-RkwuRY [2] https://www.ductedwind.com/blog https://www.ductedwind.com/blog
neilv 2y ago
Will they contribute to noise pollution? My neighborhood seems to have dramatically increasing noise pollution in the last couple years. The abuses have gotten ridiculous (and often gratuitously obnoxious) enough that I suspect backlash is imminent. Until there's serious regulation, I feel like I have to ask, since the noise environment seems to be a reckless free-for-all at the moment.
- hampelm 2y ago
  That is spoken about in the article.
  - neilv 2y ago
    Where? I saw the word "noiseless" tossed out there, but could just be journalist translating some marketing copy about some aspect of the system, not the entirety of its effect on noise pollution.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- Tagbert 2y ago
  Are your neighborhood noise levels caused by wind turbines or something else?
- omnimus 2y ago
  By far most noise pollution in cities is due to cars. Better start with that.
applied_heat 2y ago
I’ve had good results deploying both wind and solar at remote off grid sites, when there was a week of clouds due to a storm system moving through there was quite often a lot of wind and the batteries would stay fully charged.
- jes5199 2y ago
  what kind of hardware do you use to capture wind energy? It’s pretty easy to get into solar as a hobbyist but wind seems to have a higher barrier to entry (?)
  - applied_heat 2y ago
    Some $300 wind turbines off Ali baba that put out 300 watts or something. It was kind of like a propeller diameter 1m mounted to a little dc motor that was mostly bearings. We mounted it on a pile to a shed made of metal covered foam panels, the whole shed blew over. Guyed it down after that.
    - lm28469 2y ago
      300w for 1m diameter is probably the rating for the absolute best case scenario, the average could be closer to 10x less depending on the location https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-put-to-the-test/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-pu...
      - applied_heat 2y ago
        Maybe 1m was the radius, this project was more than 15 years ago. The point was instead of dead batteries during cloudy times the wind complemented nicely and the batteries were charged and our load powered.
kumarvvr 2y ago
Its not "bladeless". Its "no visible blades" That aside, I do remember a different design that allows for omnidirectional wind capture. A tall funnel structure that directs wind from all directions to a turbine below the structure. It seemed like a good idea, and some installations were made. However, I think the efficiency and costs did not work out.
- userbinator 2y ago
  Thank Dyson for popularising the "bladeless" term. These seem like the reverse of their fans.
sunshinesnacks 2y ago
Paul Gipe’s website [1] is always worth checking out when it comes to unusual wind turbine designs. He knows a ton about the history of wind energy, and lots of things have been tried before. And this NREL report [2] is also relevant. It reviews a number of rooftop wind projects. None of them met their energy goals. And the report also recommends sticking with 3rd party certified horizontal axis wind turbines (but those still underperformed because rooftops are not great for wind energy…). [1] https://wind-works.org/wind/small-wind/rooftop-and-urban-wind/ https://wind-works.org/wind/small-wind/rooftop-and-urban-win... [2] https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65622.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65622.pdf
shmerl 2y ago
Next - windtraps for water.
- Tagbert 2y ago
  Followed by… stillsuits.
leecoursey 2y ago
Oh, dear. I read as far as "Its generator system is a rotor-stator system with a highly efficient 5 kW permanent magnet generator", then immediately thought of the Turbo Encabulator: https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=WSdQIhyki2IDzqVm https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=WSdQIhyki2IDzqVm
numpad0 2y ago
So it's those pumpkin shaped rooftop ventilation thing with a shroud and generator?
quickthrowman 2y ago
These things don’t generate very much power, 5kW @ 208V 3-phase is only 13.88A which means it can’t even run a single 5HP motor. It’s equivalent to ~25 200w solar panels. You’d need 30 of these just to power a single 208v three phase 400A panel, and the size of building these would be installed on will typically have a 2000A or larger electrical service. Assuming it runs at full capacity for an entire year and electricity costs $0.10/kWh, it would save $4,380 a year, but obviously it won’t generating at 100% all the time. I fail to see how these would ever pay themselves back, I’d guess one of these units is between $30-50k installed, possibly more. The roof might need structural reinforcements which could push the cost higher. There will be electrical distribution equipment to transfer loads between the wind powered generators and utility power.

118 points by peutetre 2y ago

jncfhnb 2y ago

What’s the meaning of a 50kW unit with a 5kW generator?

renewiltord 2y ago
You put ten of them in a row. Click through to the PDF. "50 kW system of 10 units occupying 50 m"

walthamstow 2y ago

These devices are a lot like the cooling towers on ancient and modern Persian buildings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher

thinkcontext 2y ago

Another article says the company is claims > The scalable, “motionless” wind energy unit can produce 50% more energy than rooftop solar at the same cost, said the company. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/05/23/bladeless-wind-energy-innovation-aims-to-compete-with-rooftop-solar https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/05/23/bladeless-wind-energy...

fragmede 2y ago
put solar panels on top of the wind unit

amanzi 2y ago

The PDF linked to in the article explains how it works: https://26011849.fs1.hubspotusercontent-eu1.net/hubfs/26011849/Aeromine%20Website/downloads/Aeromine%205000%20Wind%20system%20brochure%202023.pdf https://26011849.fs1.hubspotusercontent-eu1.net/hubfs/260118... Obviously, it's not bladeless - you just can't see the blades. Page 4 of the PDF explains how it works: the airfoils create a vacuum above the propeller, which then sucks air from below, which generates the power.

ElectricBoogie 2y ago

I'm glad they're sticking these only on box buildings, other shapes might not work so well.

pedalpete 2y ago

I wonder if they could also use these as mounting platforms for mobile tower antennae? We have a bunch of buildings where I live that are covered in black panels for antenae, rather than competing for space, it would be nice to see these as dual use.

Animats 2y ago

This needs a third-party evaluation. Nobody gets that much power from rooftop wind with small devices. Usually you need at least 16 square meters of intake area to get 5KW. Some similar devices with iffy claims: - EIP - encased turbine for rooftop mounting [1] - Sheerwind (active about 2014-2017) Really big funnels. [2] Critique: [3] If ducting a wind turbine would help, everyone would be doing it. [1] http://eiptechnologies.com/ http://eiptechnologies.com/ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20171221050330/http://sheerwind.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171221050330/http://sheerwind.... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtjKXb5gko0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtjKXb5gko0

metadat 2y ago
Yes, their generation numbers are not definitively defined in TFA, not even as a concrete typical range.
goda90 2y ago
Here's another one, Ventum VX175: https://ventumdynamics.com/ https://ventumdynamics.com/ Regarding what you said about ducting, I don't think that's a fair assessment. Really big turbines are the biggest bang for your buck, but they aren't exactly duct-able. And on the flip side, really big turbines can't be built in a lot of places. So the question is, does ducting help smaller scale turbines, and will placing smaller scale turbines where big turbines won't fit going to be worthwhile?
- Animats 2y ago
  > So the question is, does ducting help smaller scale turbines, and will placing smaller scale turbines where big turbines won't fit going to be worthwhile? Simple ducting does help some. A group at Clarkson has been working on this. They have a wind tunnel, so they can get solid data. [1] They have a simple duct around a standard wind turbine. This gives the effect of more intake area, and they get almost twice the output power. Unclear if this is cheaper than just increasing the blade length. Many people have been down this road. There are many, many variants on experimental ducted wind turbines. Just search for "ducted wind turbine". There are very few installations. Here's one of the few.[2] They're demo installations on college campuses. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxA-RkwuRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxA-RkwuRY [2] https://www.ductedwind.com/blog https://www.ductedwind.com/blog

neilv 2y ago

Will they contribute to noise pollution? My neighborhood seems to have dramatically increasing noise pollution in the last couple years. The abuses have gotten ridiculous (and often gratuitously obnoxious) enough that I suspect backlash is imminent. Until there's serious regulation, I feel like I have to ask, since the noise environment seems to be a reckless free-for-all at the moment.

hampelm 2y ago
That is spoken about in the article.
- neilv 2y ago
  Where? I saw the word "noiseless" tossed out there, but could just be journalist translating some marketing copy about some aspect of the system, not the entirety of its effect on noise pollution.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Tagbert 2y ago
Are your neighborhood noise levels caused by wind turbines or something else?
omnimus 2y ago
By far most noise pollution in cities is due to cars. Better start with that.

applied_heat 2y ago

I’ve had good results deploying both wind and solar at remote off grid sites, when there was a week of clouds due to a storm system moving through there was quite often a lot of wind and the batteries would stay fully charged.

jes5199 2y ago
what kind of hardware do you use to capture wind energy? It’s pretty easy to get into solar as a hobbyist but wind seems to have a higher barrier to entry (?)
- applied_heat 2y ago
  Some $300 wind turbines off Ali baba that put out 300 watts or something. It was kind of like a propeller diameter 1m mounted to a little dc motor that was mostly bearings. We mounted it on a pile to a shed made of metal covered foam panels, the whole shed blew over. Guyed it down after that.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    300w for 1m diameter is probably the rating for the absolute best case scenario, the average could be closer to 10x less depending on the location https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-put-to-the-test/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/04/small-windmills-pu...
    - applied_heat 2y ago
      Maybe 1m was the radius, this project was more than 15 years ago. The point was instead of dead batteries during cloudy times the wind complemented nicely and the batteries were charged and our load powered.

kumarvvr 2y ago

Its not "bladeless". Its "no visible blades" That aside, I do remember a different design that allows for omnidirectional wind capture. A tall funnel structure that directs wind from all directions to a turbine below the structure. It seemed like a good idea, and some installations were made. However, I think the efficiency and costs did not work out.

userbinator 2y ago
Thank Dyson for popularising the "bladeless" term. These seem like the reverse of their fans.

sunshinesnacks 2y ago

Paul Gipe’s website [1] is always worth checking out when it comes to unusual wind turbine designs. He knows a ton about the history of wind energy, and lots of things have been tried before. And this NREL report [2] is also relevant. It reviews a number of rooftop wind projects. None of them met their energy goals. And the report also recommends sticking with 3rd party certified horizontal axis wind turbines (but those still underperformed because rooftops are not great for wind energy…). [1] https://wind-works.org/wind/small-wind/rooftop-and-urban-wind/ https://wind-works.org/wind/small-wind/rooftop-and-urban-win... [2] https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65622.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65622.pdf

shmerl 2y ago

Next - windtraps for water.

Tagbert 2y ago
Followed by… stillsuits.

leecoursey 2y ago

Oh, dear. I read as far as "Its generator system is a rotor-stator system with a highly efficient 5 kW permanent magnet generator", then immediately thought of the Turbo Encabulator: https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=WSdQIhyki2IDzqVm https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=WSdQIhyki2IDzqVm

numpad0 2y ago

So it's those pumpkin shaped rooftop ventilation thing with a shroud and generator?

quickthrowman 2y ago

These things don’t generate very much power, 5kW @ 208V 3-phase is only 13.88A which means it can’t even run a single 5HP motor. It’s equivalent to ~25 200w solar panels. You’d need 30 of these just to power a single 208v three phase 400A panel, and the size of building these would be installed on will typically have a 2000A or larger electrical service. Assuming it runs at full capacity for an entire year and electricity costs $0.10/kWh, it would save $4,380 a year, but obviously it won’t generating at 100% all the time. I fail to see how these would ever pay themselves back, I’d guess one of these units is between $30-50k installed, possibly more. The roof might need structural reinforcements which could push the cost higher. There will be electrical distribution equipment to transfer loads between the wind powered generators and utility power.