7 ms·

Half of the stories about billing for unused gas are clearly just theft. Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? If I made cha

Half of the stories about billing for unused gas are clearly just theft. Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail.

janice1999 2y ago
It could be worse - Hertz falsely accused hundreds of people of stealing cars which lead to felonies, arrests and jail time. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
- psynister 2y ago
  Holy crap, that is seriously messed up.
- prawn 2y ago
  Something like this happened to me - I'd rented one of their cars with no return date because I hadn't fully planned out a multi-week trip in the eastern USA. The staff member said this was fine; they'd put in a return date of a week or two and then keep pushing it back. Five weeks later I returned the car and flew back home to Australia. Found letters that had been posted saying that the car hadn't been returned and was considered stolen.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - paranoidrobot 2y ago
    For some of these cases, it was arguably worse. It turns out that when Hertz gets back a vehicle they'd reported as stolen, they might "forget" to tell the cops that. They'd rented a car for a fixed period, and were arrested and jailed for driving a stolen vehicle. They've shown police the lease agreement from Hertz showing they were authorised to drive the vehicle but police either couldn't or wouldn't verify the information with Hertz. If being arrested and jailed for this wasn't bad enough, in some cases Hertz managers were slow to respond to police requests for information - so people have sat in jail for extended periods.
- xvector 2y ago
  False accusations and convictions ruin people's lives. I'm not sure why these companies are not mandated to pay people's current income and expected income growth over the course of their working lives because it'll probably be hard for these people to ever find a job again. For instance, if I make $500k today, the company should be obligated to pay me this amount every year plus additional compounding interest on that amount in order to account for inflation and expected salary growth over the remainder of my working life. The company should be forced to put this money aside in a trust immediately so I do not have to worry about the company going bankrupt. Company resources and equity ought to be garnished, if necessary, in order to accomplish this. It's frustrating and bizarre to me that people are allowed to ruin others' lives and then they do not have to bear the full consequences of their actions. Surely, if one is found to have ruined someone's life, the least our justice system can do is obligate them to repay in full?
  - jliptzin 2y ago
    Lol, fat chance
    - john01dav 2y ago
      They're saying what SHOULD happen, not what DOES happen.
  - jerbear4328 2y ago
    Wouldn't that incentivize people to try to get companies to "ruin their lives"? If someone had a way to get a well paying income, then get a big company to do the bare minimum that counts as "ruining their lives", they live the rest of their lives comfortably without having to get a job. I think that, in theory, compensating people for life-ruining is obviously the right thing to do. The issue is that it relies on people to be perfect and never try to abuse the system, and if we can assume that, then we can just get rid of law enforcement and become a communist utopia. What is practical is making these companies far more liable than they currently are, though. It is unacceptable that they have no penalties for destroying someone's future.
- mgerdts 2y ago
  I rented a car from Hertz at SFO. After my trip I tried to file my expense report and found I didn’t have a charge on my credit card and it wasn’t listed in my Hertz account. Looking at the paperwork, I saw they rented it to someone else. Thankfully I had no interactions with the police while driving that car.
- ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
  e-sign
threeseed 2y ago
It's not theft. Rather just regular old big company incompetence. You're dealing with broken automated systems and an out-sourced customer support agent. Wait until LLMs arrive on the scene and further exacerbate the problem.
- db48x 2y ago
  It is theft too. Theft caused by incompetence and out–sourced customer support is still theft.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    No. Theft requires intent. If we accept that it's incompetence and no one actually intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle then it is not theft.
    - db48x 2y ago
      I think that a big part of Hertz’s business model is to deliberately overcharge as many of their customers as possible.
    - Repulsion9513 2y ago
      If no one intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle, then why was the fee applied to an electric vehicle? Moreover why did it happen numerous times? And why was support not immediately like "oh crap lemme fix that"?
- chipgap98 2y ago
  Incompetence is not a valid justification for theft
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  While I generally agree with your premise, the problem is that when companies realize they can make more money through "old big company incompetence", at best it means they have no incentive to improve, and at worst in means they can maliciously overcharge and then just blame it on "incompetence". I really think government needs to enact laws that make companies compensate people for their time when they have to deal with bureaucratic nightmares like this. Right now companies just get to externalize the costs of their fucks ups onto everyone else.
unstatusthequo 2y ago
State Attorney General or Consumer Fraud Departments
laweijfmvo 2y ago
at what point does something like this garner class-action attention? most of the money ends up going to the lawyers, though…
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  It can get extremely expensive before anything is done. And in fact the high price of it can keep it going, when it’s benefitting those with lobbying power Just take a look at wage theft and federal police theft stats compared with all other forms of robbery in the US - it’s out of control but the only thing that seems to get actioned on is the small shoplifting issue, not the vastly worse forms of theft (per dollar value)
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Class action is often prohibited through terms that force you to act solely and also they require arbitration. This sort of thing should be banned and made retroactive.
  - eli 2y ago
    Sadly the courts are on the side of large corporate interests.
  - 1123581321 2y ago
    A judge can still approve a class in those conditions.
- Repulsion9513 2y ago
  When they've made approximately nine digits off of it. After all, they need to be able to keep some of their ill-gotten profits, the lawyers need at least 7 digits (more often 8), the class representatives need perhaps 5-6 digits, and everyone else (who was fleeced out of 3 digits) gets 1 digit.
TulliusCicero 2y ago
As a general rule, people stealing or otherwise breaking the law via companies get cut way more slack than random individuals. Like, Wells Fargo set up millions of fraudulent accounts for its customers, and zero people went to jail. Even if you accept the premise that upper level management somehow didn't know, a certain level of negligence should absolutely lead to prison time when the impact is this is large.
- hnburnsy 2y ago
  No prison time but one was prosecuted and sentenced to home confinement and community service... >A former top Wells Fargo executive avoided prison time for her role in the bank’s sham accounts scandal, after a federal judge on Friday instead sentenced her to six months of home confinement and three years of probation. She was also ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and perform 120 hours of community service.
  - tw04 2y ago
    She DEFINITELY made more than $100k in stock and bonuses for the fraud.
  - jmpman 2y ago
    Was this the person in HR, who, when the good hearted Wells Fargo’s employees reported the ethical violation, had them terminated? I don’t understand why everyone in their HR department wasn’t immediately terminated and thrown into prison, and forced to pay the salaries of anyone who was fired.
- discordance 2y ago
  Another classic example is from the 2007–2008 financial crisis, for which there were only two people who were actually charged for their wrong doing: Kareem Serageldin got a 30 month sentence, and Lee Farkas got 30 years but only served 9 and was released because of his "susceptibility to COVID-19 while incarcerated at the Coleman low-security prison in Wildwood" [0][1]. Talk about a lack of culpability. 0: https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster-lee-farkas-out-of-prison-serves-9-of-30-year-bid https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster... 1: https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-prison/ https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-p...
IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
This is small potatoes. Hertz has been actually triggered false arrets of its own customers -some going to jail - due to poorly implemented software logic....[1] And no one at hertz is going to jail [2]. They are settling as usual. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ [2] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
- dylan604 2y ago
  With all of the pitch fork and torches being gathered, who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Is it Hertz for accepting faulty software, or the software devs for designing such broken code and passing it off as production ready? Where was this program made? How many boats will be required to ferry the gathering crowd to the offshored lands? Also, at what point do police stop accepting "stolen" car reports from Hertz? This is such a failure on so many levels, why is Hertz the only ones receiving the hate?
  - jjav 2y ago
    > who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney, as they are the ones who decide what is prosecuted and what is not. They take unsubstantiated allegations from hertz and put people to jail, but at the same time don't lift a finger to prosecute the clearly guilty corporations for fraud. So yes, while mistakes are made all around, the ultimate guilty party is the district attorney.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      Have there been any convictions in any of these false cases due to poorly written software? I get being arrested and detained in jail for any length of time is total bullshit. Unless these people cannot post bail after being arraigned, that should be the end of it. Once a defense attorney challenges the case, the DA should be dropping charges. If the DA continues to prosecute, what jury is convicting? So this "going to jail" sounds like it's getting conflated from held until arraignment versus serving time after being found guilty
Aurornis 2y ago
> Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. But in this case, the article makes it clear that the people were able to get the charges reversed by talking to Hertz. It wasn't necessarily convenient, but the funds were returned when a human saw the mistake. > If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail. If you entered into an agreement with someone to do business and then accidentally charged them the wrong amount, you would not go to jail. That's what happened here, as annoying as it is. I know this is HN and we're supposed to get our pitchforks out any time a company makes a mistake, but your analogy doesn't hold. Legally, intentional theft is a higher bar than a mistake. You're right that you'd be in trouble if you just started charging random people's credit cards fraudulently, but you're not going to jail if you're doing business with someone and you occasionally make a mistake about the amount when it's time to bill them. (FYI: Billing mistakes happen all the time at scale) If you could prove that someone in Hertz was diabolically masterminding a scheme to knowingly milk money from customers by charging EV drivers for gas, you could have a case. But if Hertz is just accidentally charging a couple people here and there for gas (as appears to be the case from the article) then that's not "stealing". It's just a mistake.
- jononomo 2y ago
  It wasn't a mistake. It was a pretend mistake.
- sneak 2y ago
  > Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. That's not actually true. This sort of "oh, you never have to pay for services not rendered" is mostly just a fiction. I've had multiple issues with major credit card issuers who refused to persist chargebacks when vendors screwed me. The other issue is that, even if you successfully chargeback against a vendor, oftentimes that vendor is a monopoly or duopoloy, and they will terminate your account and ban any new accounts using the same name or card number, and you'll be screwed.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
kevinob11 2y ago
I wonder about this constantly. Why is there such a legal power imbalance between people and companies, especially large companies? If a company wants to charge me extra they just do it, they don't have to provide proof of anything. If I want to resolve the issue I have to call them or my credit card company, neither is simple and has something like a 75% chance of being successful (IME) even if I'm completely right. On two separate occasions a company has charged me for something and after I've made multiple calls and escalations (which of course can only happen during certain hours) they finally refunded me by saying "we'll make a one-time exception as a favor to you" even though they were literally stealing from me. In one case they only finally did it after I contacted the attorney general. Honestly I don't even really care if it was a mistake (which are usually systemic issues) vs intentional, it is theft. In one example Comcast charged me a late fee even though I had autopay set up and they just missed running the charge. I wonder how many people just didn't notice. I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops.
- throwup238 2y ago
  > I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops. We need a corporate death penalty and three strike laws - where three is scaled to the customer base or total monetary damages or whatever. Upon death, any and all assets (including shares of the company, in case of restructuring) go to employee salaries until the company can be wound down.
  - Droobfest 2y ago
    This would only give employees a giant incentive to tank the company this way…
  - pmontra 2y ago
    It's not companies that do this kind of stuff, it's people working at companies. You just jail/fine those people and all the chain of command up to the CEO. That would be an incentive to establish good procedures and not to steal on customers.
exclusiv 2y ago
IANA but I understand CLRA in California is very strong for this type of stuff.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Repulsion9513 2y ago
Welcome to the corporatocracy.

janice1999 2y ago

It could be worse - Hertz falsely accused hundreds of people of stealing cars which lead to felonies, arrests and jail time. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...

psynister 2y ago
Holy crap, that is seriously messed up.
prawn 2y ago
Something like this happened to me - I'd rented one of their cars with no return date because I hadn't fully planned out a multi-week trip in the eastern USA. The staff member said this was fine; they'd put in a return date of a week or two and then keep pushing it back. Five weeks later I returned the car and flew back home to Australia. Found letters that had been posted saying that the car hadn't been returned and was considered stolen.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- paranoidrobot 2y ago
  For some of these cases, it was arguably worse. It turns out that when Hertz gets back a vehicle they'd reported as stolen, they might "forget" to tell the cops that. They'd rented a car for a fixed period, and were arrested and jailed for driving a stolen vehicle. They've shown police the lease agreement from Hertz showing they were authorised to drive the vehicle but police either couldn't or wouldn't verify the information with Hertz. If being arrested and jailed for this wasn't bad enough, in some cases Hertz managers were slow to respond to police requests for information - so people have sat in jail for extended periods.
xvector 2y ago
False accusations and convictions ruin people's lives. I'm not sure why these companies are not mandated to pay people's current income and expected income growth over the course of their working lives because it'll probably be hard for these people to ever find a job again. For instance, if I make $500k today, the company should be obligated to pay me this amount every year plus additional compounding interest on that amount in order to account for inflation and expected salary growth over the remainder of my working life. The company should be forced to put this money aside in a trust immediately so I do not have to worry about the company going bankrupt. Company resources and equity ought to be garnished, if necessary, in order to accomplish this. It's frustrating and bizarre to me that people are allowed to ruin others' lives and then they do not have to bear the full consequences of their actions. Surely, if one is found to have ruined someone's life, the least our justice system can do is obligate them to repay in full?
- jliptzin 2y ago
  Lol, fat chance
  - john01dav 2y ago
    They're saying what SHOULD happen, not what DOES happen.
- jerbear4328 2y ago
  Wouldn't that incentivize people to try to get companies to "ruin their lives"? If someone had a way to get a well paying income, then get a big company to do the bare minimum that counts as "ruining their lives", they live the rest of their lives comfortably without having to get a job. I think that, in theory, compensating people for life-ruining is obviously the right thing to do. The issue is that it relies on people to be perfect and never try to abuse the system, and if we can assume that, then we can just get rid of law enforcement and become a communist utopia. What is practical is making these companies far more liable than they currently are, though. It is unacceptable that they have no penalties for destroying someone's future.
mgerdts 2y ago
I rented a car from Hertz at SFO. After my trip I tried to file my expense report and found I didn’t have a charge on my credit card and it wasn’t listed in my Hertz account. Looking at the paperwork, I saw they rented it to someone else. Thankfully I had no interactions with the police while driving that car.
ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
e-sign

threeseed 2y ago

It's not theft. Rather just regular old big company incompetence. You're dealing with broken automated systems and an out-sourced customer support agent. Wait until LLMs arrive on the scene and further exacerbate the problem.

db48x 2y ago
It is theft too. Theft caused by incompetence and out–sourced customer support is still theft.
- lolinder 2y ago
  No. Theft requires intent. If we accept that it's incompetence and no one actually intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle then it is not theft.
  - db48x 2y ago
    I think that a big part of Hertz’s business model is to deliberately overcharge as many of their customers as possible.
  - Repulsion9513 2y ago
    If no one intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle, then why was the fee applied to an electric vehicle? Moreover why did it happen numerous times? And why was support not immediately like "oh crap lemme fix that"?
chipgap98 2y ago
Incompetence is not a valid justification for theft
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
While I generally agree with your premise, the problem is that when companies realize they can make more money through "old big company incompetence", at best it means they have no incentive to improve, and at worst in means they can maliciously overcharge and then just blame it on "incompetence". I really think government needs to enact laws that make companies compensate people for their time when they have to deal with bureaucratic nightmares like this. Right now companies just get to externalize the costs of their fucks ups onto everyone else.

unstatusthequo 2y ago

State Attorney General or Consumer Fraud Departments

laweijfmvo 2y ago

at what point does something like this garner class-action attention? most of the money ends up going to the lawyers, though…

wahnfrieden 2y ago
It can get extremely expensive before anything is done. And in fact the high price of it can keep it going, when it’s benefitting those with lobbying power Just take a look at wage theft and federal police theft stats compared with all other forms of robbery in the US - it’s out of control but the only thing that seems to get actioned on is the small shoplifting issue, not the vastly worse forms of theft (per dollar value)
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Class action is often prohibited through terms that force you to act solely and also they require arbitration. This sort of thing should be banned and made retroactive.
- eli 2y ago
  Sadly the courts are on the side of large corporate interests.
- 1123581321 2y ago
  A judge can still approve a class in those conditions.
Repulsion9513 2y ago
When they've made approximately nine digits off of it. After all, they need to be able to keep some of their ill-gotten profits, the lawyers need at least 7 digits (more often 8), the class representatives need perhaps 5-6 digits, and everyone else (who was fleeced out of 3 digits) gets 1 digit.

TulliusCicero 2y ago

As a general rule, people stealing or otherwise breaking the law via companies get cut way more slack than random individuals. Like, Wells Fargo set up millions of fraudulent accounts for its customers, and zero people went to jail. Even if you accept the premise that upper level management somehow didn't know, a certain level of negligence should absolutely lead to prison time when the impact is this is large.

hnburnsy 2y ago
No prison time but one was prosecuted and sentenced to home confinement and community service... >A former top Wells Fargo executive avoided prison time for her role in the bank’s sham accounts scandal, after a federal judge on Friday instead sentenced her to six months of home confinement and three years of probation. She was also ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and perform 120 hours of community service.
- tw04 2y ago
  She DEFINITELY made more than $100k in stock and bonuses for the fraud.
- jmpman 2y ago
  Was this the person in HR, who, when the good hearted Wells Fargo’s employees reported the ethical violation, had them terminated? I don’t understand why everyone in their HR department wasn’t immediately terminated and thrown into prison, and forced to pay the salaries of anyone who was fired.
discordance 2y ago
Another classic example is from the 2007–2008 financial crisis, for which there were only two people who were actually charged for their wrong doing: Kareem Serageldin got a 30 month sentence, and Lee Farkas got 30 years but only served 9 and was released because of his "susceptibility to COVID-19 while incarcerated at the Coleman low-security prison in Wildwood" [0][1]. Talk about a lack of culpability. 0: https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster-lee-farkas-out-of-prison-serves-9-of-30-year-bid https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster... 1: https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-prison/ https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-p...

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago

This is small potatoes. Hertz has been actually triggered false arrets of its own customers -some going to jail - due to poorly implemented software logic....[1] And no one at hertz is going to jail [2]. They are settling as usual. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ [2] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...

dylan604 2y ago
With all of the pitch fork and torches being gathered, who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Is it Hertz for accepting faulty software, or the software devs for designing such broken code and passing it off as production ready? Where was this program made? How many boats will be required to ferry the gathering crowd to the offshored lands? Also, at what point do police stop accepting "stolen" car reports from Hertz? This is such a failure on so many levels, why is Hertz the only ones receiving the hate?
- jjav 2y ago
  > who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney, as they are the ones who decide what is prosecuted and what is not. They take unsubstantiated allegations from hertz and put people to jail, but at the same time don't lift a finger to prosecute the clearly guilty corporations for fraud. So yes, while mistakes are made all around, the ultimate guilty party is the district attorney.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Have there been any convictions in any of these false cases due to poorly written software? I get being arrested and detained in jail for any length of time is total bullshit. Unless these people cannot post bail after being arraigned, that should be the end of it. Once a defense attorney challenges the case, the DA should be dropping charges. If the DA continues to prosecute, what jury is convicting? So this "going to jail" sounds like it's getting conflated from held until arraignment versus serving time after being found guilty

Aurornis 2y ago

> Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. But in this case, the article makes it clear that the people were able to get the charges reversed by talking to Hertz. It wasn't necessarily convenient, but the funds were returned when a human saw the mistake. > If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail. If you entered into an agreement with someone to do business and then accidentally charged them the wrong amount, you would not go to jail. That's what happened here, as annoying as it is. I know this is HN and we're supposed to get our pitchforks out any time a company makes a mistake, but your analogy doesn't hold. Legally, intentional theft is a higher bar than a mistake. You're right that you'd be in trouble if you just started charging random people's credit cards fraudulently, but you're not going to jail if you're doing business with someone and you occasionally make a mistake about the amount when it's time to bill them. (FYI: Billing mistakes happen all the time at scale) If you could prove that someone in Hertz was diabolically masterminding a scheme to knowingly milk money from customers by charging EV drivers for gas, you could have a case. But if Hertz is just accidentally charging a couple people here and there for gas (as appears to be the case from the article) then that's not "stealing". It's just a mistake.

jononomo 2y ago
It wasn't a mistake. It was a pretend mistake.
sneak 2y ago
> Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. That's not actually true. This sort of "oh, you never have to pay for services not rendered" is mostly just a fiction. I've had multiple issues with major credit card issuers who refused to persist chargebacks when vendors screwed me. The other issue is that, even if you successfully chargeback against a vendor, oftentimes that vendor is a monopoly or duopoloy, and they will terminate your account and ban any new accounts using the same name or card number, and you'll be screwed.
- throwaway2037 2y ago

kevinob11 2y ago

I wonder about this constantly. Why is there such a legal power imbalance between people and companies, especially large companies? If a company wants to charge me extra they just do it, they don't have to provide proof of anything. If I want to resolve the issue I have to call them or my credit card company, neither is simple and has something like a 75% chance of being successful (IME) even if I'm completely right. On two separate occasions a company has charged me for something and after I've made multiple calls and escalations (which of course can only happen during certain hours) they finally refunded me by saying "we'll make a one-time exception as a favor to you" even though they were literally stealing from me. In one case they only finally did it after I contacted the attorney general. Honestly I don't even really care if it was a mistake (which are usually systemic issues) vs intentional, it is theft. In one example Comcast charged me a late fee even though I had autopay set up and they just missed running the charge. I wonder how many people just didn't notice. I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops.

throwup238 2y ago
> I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops. We need a corporate death penalty and three strike laws - where three is scaled to the customer base or total monetary damages or whatever. Upon death, any and all assets (including shares of the company, in case of restructuring) go to employee salaries until the company can be wound down.
- Droobfest 2y ago
  This would only give employees a giant incentive to tank the company this way…
- pmontra 2y ago
  It's not companies that do this kind of stuff, it's people working at companies. You just jail/fine those people and all the chain of command up to the CEO. That would be an incentive to establish good procedures and not to steal on customers.

exclusiv 2y ago

IANA but I understand CLRA in California is very strong for this type of stuff.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Repulsion9513 2y ago

Welcome to the corporatocracy.