14 ms·

I couldn't escape poison oak, so I started eating it

136 points by hcrisp 2y ago

corinroyal 2y ago
Please don't do this. It's a great way to get urushiol poisoning of your GI tract.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  This sounds very much like something that someone might hear on Joe Rogan's podcast and think it's a good idea because someone who knows how to put two sentences together sounded like they knew what they were talking about.
  - phoronixrly 2y ago
    Same with vitamin d self-medication here on HN
    - mort96 2y ago
      Is there any research out there which links moderate amounts of vitamin D (such as the recommended dosages on vitamin D supplements) to any negative effects at all? Is there any research to indicate that a lack of urushiol has negative effects, similar to how we know that a lack of vitamin D has negative effects? If not I don't really see the connection
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      There is lots of research saying that vitamin D deficiency causes problems, and the deficiency is more common than you'd expect. Other health conditions and habits can lead to a deficiency.
      - Ekaros 2y ago
        There is fixing deficiency and then there is "hyper dozing". Also lot of it is seasonal, northern hemisphere is entering summer so there should be plenty of sun light even with short exposure to light.
        wakawaka28 2y ago
        I don't think exposure to light is enough to overcome an actual deficiency. When you're exposed to light you get kind of a huge dose, until you get a tan. Then your skin won't produce much more for a while. You're right about overdoing it. There is such a thing as vitamin D poisioning. I think it draws calcium out of your bones or something. On the other hand, not enough vitamin D is bad for your bones too. Fortunately, there are tests for vitamin D. If you think you have a problem with it, you ought to get a test.
    - OJFord 2y ago
      It's not a prescription drug, so I'm not really sure what 'self-medication' means; I self-medicate with caffeine, might eat an orange and self-medicate vit C later, etc. NHS (UK) guidance: > Government advice is that everyone should consider taking a daily vitamin D supplement during the autumn and winter. > People at high risk of not getting enough vitamin D, all children aged 1 to 4, and all babies (unless they're having more than 500ml of infant formula a day) should take a daily supplement throughout the year. (People at high risk = for example darker skin, or indoor jobs.)
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      Vitamin D deficiency (and while we're at it, B12 deficiency and iron deficiency) are real deficiency issues that have risen in numbers across Western societies for quite the time now - IIRC, a large contributor is our change in diets and living habits. Basically, we're spending far less time working out in the open so our body doesn't generate vitamin D on its own in sufficient quantities, and the trend towards highly processed, nutritionally inflexible diets on one side and vegetarianism/veganism on the other side leads to a whole host of malnutrition issues. Unfortunately, the "malnutrition" levels in bloodwork are mostly calibrated on white European males... so similar to BMI [1] and a few medications and diseases [2], there is a "vitamin D paradox" in Black people who seem to not be that sensitive to lower vit-D levels than White people [3]. Human bodies and genetics are fascinating, even if you're not an expert in it. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9877251/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9877251/ [2] https://academic.oup.com/ehjcvp/article/8/7/738/6644872 https://academic.oup.com/ehjcvp/article/8/7/738/6644872 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5954269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5954269/
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    Gradual exposure to allergens like urushiol has been a legitimate recognized treatment plan for decades. Animals are able to eat poison ivy and poison oak. It's a brave strategy to eat the stuff, but nobody including smug netizens like yourself knows if it will work for someone else. Everything that works in medicine was probably thought to be ridiculous by someone at one point. Joe Rogan isn't the best source of medical advice, but he has been smeared by the media on behalf of big pharma. His approach to treating COVID came from a doctor and was not "horse paste"... CNN was proven to have edited video of Joe Rogan to make his skin look off-color. Also, never forget that the mainstream media said the "vaccines" would stop transmission of the virus when all the experts knew it wouldn't do so, from the start. They also lied about side effects.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
      Pointing out that at some points Joe Rogan might have been smeared unjustly by mainstream media does not in any way come close to absolving the crimes JR has committed against modern science by giving constant airtime to outright quacks. Anyone remotely interested in making sure proper science knowledge and education makes it out to gen pop should be completely against Rogan and everything he stands for. It only takes one to ruin your reputation. Rogan has aired hundreds. It’s even more dangerous than one might think because sometimes, like in some examples you reference, there is some legitimate medicine mixed in.
      - freedomben 2y ago
        This is the most anti-science attitude I think I've seen in a very long time. It's also foolish and dangerous IMHO, because it greatly contributes to the very thing you want to prevent: amplification and creation of quack science to the gen pop. Simply depriving these people of airtime does NOT quash their views and make them go away. It fuels conspiracy theories such as about how big pharma is censoring ideas about natural (or already highly-available) treatments in order to make billions on devoloping their vaccines and using government levers to force people to buy them. (They did try to do that too, though they got lucky in that none of the "natural" treatments seemed to really work. But had they worked, their reaction would have been the same.) It also means the discussions people see are going to happen on shows/forums/podcasts where the host doesn't push back on them and offer challenges and critical thinking. This not only sets a terrible example for people by demonstrating through social proof that one should accept these things uncritically, but it makes it appear as though the case is very strong and there isn't a good counter-argument! This double effect makes a strong impression on people in the exact opposite way that we want. I think Joe Rogan has done more to bring sanity to these things than most people. Have you ever watched those episodes? He is very conversational but if there is ever a claim that doesn't seem supported, he will ask Jamie (his assistant or producer or whatever) look it up, and they are highly skeptical and choosy of sources. We should know by now that censoring information these days does not work. We're no longer living in the society where the average person only gets information from TV or books available at their library or local book store. If there's a quack theory out there, it will get to people through the internet. The answer is not to shut down the internet. We need to expose these ideas and defeat them using logical and scientific refutation, and we need to encourage and teach critical thinking skills. This is a new world we are living in, and the tried and true techniques or censoring and book burning do not work anymore. Embrace it and use it.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  It’s not the first time I’ve heard about it. I can’t condone it but I can’t rule out that some variant of this might work. The reaction to urushiol is an allergic reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol and a vaccine is under development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDC-APB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDC-APB Some people just don’t react to it while others do. I had hay fever as a kid which developed into asthma in my 30s, I had immune therapy from a specialist who gave me increasingly concentrated shots of allergens weekly for years. After a while my asthma went into remission and I quit taking medicine for it. I still have hay fever symptoms some times but they aren’t too bad and I rarely medicate for them because I get side effects even from some of the “non-drowsy” antihistamines. Even though it is done under medical supervision, it is a controversial treatment. It’s banned in the U.K. They’d have me sit around the office for 30 minutes in case I had a bad reaction which they could usually treat with an injection of epinephrine but could be lethal if somebody was really unlucky. Note there is at least one report of treatment of poison ivy sensitivity this way https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(09)01972-1/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(09)01972-1/ful... The thing is I got a treatment from my doc which was somewhat evidence based, compare that to all the bizzaro ideas circulating such as Edgar Cayce’s idea that you could treat hay fever with an alcohol tincture of ragweed. (Got that from a herbalist once, it does seem harmless) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce
  - rwmj 2y ago
    Is it the same plant that was used for shokushinbutsu, the "self-mummification" practiced by Japanese monks? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu Edit: OK, not quite. The Japanese lacquer tree was used which produces the same "active" substance which is what slowly kills you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernicifluum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernicifluum
    - mlyle 2y ago
      > which is what slowly kills you Again, not quite: starvation by not eating normal food is what kills you. Urushiol is non-toxic at even massive doses; but vanishingly small doses will provoke painful/itchy allergic reactions in many people.
- alecst 2y ago
  Would be nice if you addressed the article instead of the headline. It’s actually fascinating.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
    Unfortunately the article is paywalled
- x3n0ph3n3 2y ago
  Urushiol soup is actually a common East-Asian folk remedy and you can order it in some restaurants -- I've actually had it. It's not exactly a _toxin_, just sometimes trigger allergic reactions.
freefaler 2y ago
https://archive.ph/F4PZX https://archive.ph/F4PZX
skepticalmd 2y ago
Absurd that there is zero mention of Mithridates in the article. As always, Chesterton's Fence applies to medicine. Be very wary of anything outside of healthy diet, sleep, exercise, and relationships. If you don't know why your body is fevering, don't lower the fever. If you don't know why your blood pressure is high, don't lower it. We in the medical field vastly overestimate our understanding of human physiology.
- Sebb767 2y ago
  > If you don't know why your body is fevering, don't lower the fever. If you don't know why your blood pressure is high, don't lower it. And if you don't know why you have cancer, don't do anything about it? Like, I get the point with fever (which is a known defense mechanism), but high blood pressure is a big problem in the long run and even if it's just a symptom, not doing anything about it is not likely to be the best move.
  - samtho 2y ago
    The point is that we treat certain things like high blood pressure as a primary issue instead of a secondary one. Instead of addressing something cholesterol, which can often be a lifestyle issue, more emphasis is placed on just taking the statin.
    - lazide 2y ago
      because most people will refuse to address the lifestyle issue, not because they aren’t made extremely aware of it!
- wetpaws 2y ago
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- mmastrac 2y ago
  This is so wrong, sorry. Humans evolved to reproduce as a species successfully, not to ensure the optimum survival of an individual. Not everything your body does is in your best interests: something that tends to be the best solution for long-term survival for a group might be entirely wrong for your specific case.
michaelbuckbee 2y ago
Several kids in our family's social group have successfully undergone desensitization therapy for severe nut allergies. It was much more rigorous than the author's approach, with weekly doctor visits and taking increasingly large amounts of whatever they were allergic to (starting with micrograms of nut powder). I think my niece had the best time as she eventually was advised to start eating daily measured amounts of nutella. I mention this mostly because I do think the author was a bit cavalier in his approach (mostly because it's hard to accurately judge dosage from wild plants) but also to just spread the word that the allergy desensitization therapies are out there and quite effective and life changing.
- wawayanda 2y ago
  I have direct experience with this and it is indeed a miracle. What's interesting is that the protocol largely emerged outside the regulatory channels, with a handful of doctors worldwide developing it once the science became clear that exposure could help and more and more offering it to patients every year. These allergists have carefully figured out regimens that work and it can take a year of daily dosing, with dose sizes increasing twice monthly, until one can safely eat, say, a handful of peanuts. There's still today another camp: Many allergists still preach avoidance however and put fear into worried parents about the dangers of oral immunotherapy. Because it can be hard to find an office that will run your immunotherapy program for you, or costly if you do, many parents are doing it on their own, following dosing protocols they find in Facebook groups or on YouTube. The ones I've seen have been supportive and helpful, not quackery. Meanwhile the medical establishment is finding ways to monetize this immunotherapy by turning, for example, peanut doses into pharmaceuticals, e.g. Palforzia, which is a recently FDA approved "food allergy treatment" and is in fact simply peanut protein.
  - modeless 2y ago
    Oral immunotherapy is indeed dangerous. Eosinophilic esophagitis is real. Anaphylaxis is common. It's a long, tedious road, with daily dosing for years, and in many people the treatment ends in failure rendering the effort wasted. Although many do achieve remission, there is no guarantee that the allergy is gone for good. The immunity obtained by immunotherapy is not necessarily the same as natural immunity. It may not be complete and it may not be long lasting. The immune system has a long, long memory and we do not have any reliable tests to determine if anyone's immunity is permanent. For that reason allergists recommend continuing dosing indefinitely to maintain immunity, and continuing to carry an epi-pen. For the rest of your life. You will get sick of peanut butter. All that said, we are doing sublingual immunotherapy for our son. But I am hoping that within his lifetime new treatments are developed that will free him from allergies completely. Precise control of the immune system would be the holy grail of medicine IMO. Dysfunctions of the immune system are at the root of so many diseases, not just allergies. If the immune system could be easily trained to ignore or attack arbitrary targets at will it could likely cure almost any infection or cancer. And I bet it could be useful in treating the diseases of aging as well.
FLT8 2y ago
My first introduction to urushiol was as a kid... there was a Japanese rhus tree [1] near my local bus stop and I happened to play with some of the seed pods while waiting for a bus one day. I ended up looking like the elephant man for a few days, and it took a bit of time to figure out what was going on. It turns out that Urushiol shows up in some surprising places, including mango skin, which I discovered later in life after peeling a bunch of mangoes to make a mango salad. Apparently the husks of cashew nuts are notoriously bad for the workers who deal with them too (although the nuts themselves are perfectly safe).. I don't think I'm likely to deliberately eat anything with urushiol in it, but I must admit, the idea of being able to train my immune system to deal with it is kind of appealing. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_succedaneum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_succedaneum
- sdwr 2y ago
  My sister got a strange rash on her face growing up.. our pediatrician traced it back to the boxes of mangos she ate
DeathArrow 2y ago
Metamizole is the only thing that works for me when I have fever. But it seems that I recently developped an allergy to it, which is a bummer. Every single damn time I take metamizole, I develop very itch rashes. So by taking some substance it seem I became more sensitive to it's side effects, not less.
- goda90 2y ago
  The immune system is so complex. I have to wonder if allergies develop when something else is stressing the immune system and it misidentifies the culprit.
  - modeless 2y ago
    Current research seems to suggest that allergies develop when the immune system doesn't find anything to fight and goes looking for trouble (the hygiene hypothesis). Although that is a long term effect and I think it's likely that what you said is true as well, on a short term basis. There's also a big difference in being exposed to the natural environment with lots of bacteria and viruses and plants that don't cause disease in humans, which is really what the hygiene hypothesis is about, and getting sick with human diseases, which is not actually beneficial in any way (the immunity gained this way is narrow, not broad, it doesn't "train" your immune system to fight anything but the particular strain of whatever you got). So my best guess is that when you live a life indoors for years without much exposure to natural outdoor bacteria/viruses/plants, and then you encounter a human disease, your immune system goes into overdrive and misidentifies the culprit.
- rvba 2y ago
  I never found any drug that can actually reduce fever and is available without prescription.
- aae42 2y ago
  This article, and your story reminds me of a University of Guelph professors info regarding bee stings. https://hbrc.ca/bee-stings/ https://hbrc.ca/bee-stings/ Those most at risk of developing anaphylaxis from bee stings are not those that get some as rarely as the typical population, or as often as experienced and busy beekeepers wearing mediocre protection, it was the hobbyists wearing complete protection that only got stung once or twice a year. Made me start wearing a little less protection for fear of developing a stronger allergy.
harimau777 2y ago
Does anyone know why desensitization works for some allergies but for other things, like latex, the more you are exposed to them the more likely you are to develop an allergy?
- modeless 2y ago
  It's not just the amount of exposure, it's the type. Skin exposure is generally sensitizing. Mouth exposure is generally desensitizing, as long as it is below the threshold that causes a severe reaction, and the exposure is more often than roughly twice weekly (the more often the better). This may be a reason why babies stick everything in their mouths. This is the basis of oral immunotherapy, and if you ate latex daily it could possibly desensitize you. However, the immune system is insanely complicated and not fully understood. There are a lot of gotchas here. It may actually be possible to desensitize with skin exposure with careful control of the dose, as there are some 'skin patch" treatments that work for some people although generally not nearly as well as the oral route. Not all allergies are the same, and may not be treatable by exposure in some people. The immunity obtained by immunotherapy may not be the same as natural immunity, it may disappear over time, and the treatment itself can have hard to detect but severe chronic side effects like eosinophilic esophagitis. So don't DIY! Interestingly I have heard that mango skin contains the same irritant chemical as poison oak. I wonder if eating mango skin would help desensitize people to poison oak. I once ate a very small amount by accident and had a weird feeling in my throat and a bad taste in my mouth for ten minutes afterward, so it sounds pretty unpleasant to me.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    Mithridatism is pretty well-studied at this point, and an allegist can likely help with any sort of desensitization that you do. Many common allergies have available therapies at this point. Latex may be an exception depending on the mechanism of action, but almost all organic compounds that can be metabolized by your body can be adapted to.
- muffinman26 2y ago
  My layman's understanding is that the key to desensitization is that it has to be below the level of a certain kind of reaction. Allergies occur because the immune system incorrectly associates a substance with a bad reaction, and so attacks it as it would a pathogen. The problem is that the allergen isn't a pathogen, and so the immune system can't actually kill it. There's a treatment for pet/pollen/etc. allergies that works by injecting a very small quantity of the allergenic substance every week, slowly building up tolerance. The body learns that the small dose didn't cause problems, and slowly gets accustomed to higher and higher doses. If the doctor sets the dosage too high, the body has an allergic reaction and then that allergic reaction reinforces the immune system's determination that the substance is dangerous. The treatment response to this is to drastically reduce the dosage and try again. If the sibling comment's assertation that oral exposure was desensitizing was correct, that wouldn't explain why some people develop food allergies later in life. (As one anecdotal example, my Wilderness First Responder instructor was slowly getting more and more allergic to mangos.)
el_benhameen 2y ago
According to family lore, my grandmother’s rural northern-ca elementary school teacher had the class eat some poison oak. Despite living in prime poison oak territory and being a lifelong outdoors person, she never got it. I always assumed it was some wild folk medicine ritual, so it’s interesting to see that there might be some basis for it.
AlbertCory 2y ago
Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. By way of contrast, I've told my doctor about sinus rinsing, and she was not disapproving. But she said, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." I think this is a better response than blanket disapproval. The corresponding response to urushiol desensitization would be "There's no guidance on this. Be very careful! Here are some risks." Which is the best you should expect from an establishment doctor. A homeopathic doctor would tell you a lot of stuff that might or might not be accurate or safe.
- burnte 2y ago
  > Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. Not in the USA. In the USA doctors can absolutely recommend non-medical treatments like supplements and homeopathy and other crap. Each doctor has their own threshold of comfort in what they will and won't recommend. But as you yourself then followed up, your doctor said when you brought up nasal rinses, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." Other doctors will go so far as to suggest them, mine has, and he was right. My doctor (same doc for my wife) will bring up lots of things, and explains his position on them all clearly, even explaining risks and things. He even went so far one time as to suggest a Chinese medicine treatment for a rare disorder my wife has. He didn't say it would work, but said he's heard about it and it should be risk free if she wanted to try it. Doctors are allowed to recommend lots of things, it's the presentation and outcome that define liability. If a Dr says "you should shove bees up your butt to cure this ear infection" then yeah, they're going to get in trouble. But it's a lot less black and white than you seem to feel. Note: I've worked in real-medicine healthcare for 9 years now.
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    OK. I said "pretty much" which leaves a lot of wiggle room.
  - Zenzero 2y ago
    > But it's a lot less black and white than you seem to feel. That's the problem. The concept of what is reasonable is too nebulous to rely on. Also people are quite simply really dumb. You can make some innocuous statement like "others have found nasal rinses to be beneficial", and some idiot will get themselves hospitalized with a draining abscess in their face. It turns out that person decided their nasal rinse was going to be alternating eucalyptus oil and bone broth because someone on Facebook said that was the most healing, and they claim that you as their doctor said it was OK. The case gets escalated to you having to explain to the board that you didn't make any such claim, but because there is a record of you saying that nasal rinses can be beneficial, it can be at the discretion of a "reasonable person" if that skirted too close to their line of culpability for the injury that the person sustained. The solution is to stick close to what is accepted medicine, and if people want to complain about establishment medicine, then let them. Doctors understand there is safety in the herd.
addingadimensio 2y ago
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foobarian 2y ago
If this would help with poison ivy outbreaks I would be all over this.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
You don't need to eat it. A well-known phenomenon in the US military is that some of the sites for Basic Training of new recruits have prodigious quantities of poison oak/ivy/sumac as the local flora. As consequence of the military training, you are rolling around in those plants daily. Initially, a large percentage of people have the usual reaction but it quickly disappears after a few weeks and it never happens again, providing apparent permanent immunity. This is in contrast to the experience many kids have in the US of sporadic exposure and no immunity. Apparently intense sustained exposure is required.
- HarryHirsch 2y ago
  That's the exact opposite to what happens with DCC in chemical labs. DCC reacts with amino groups in proteins, same as urushiol in poison {oak,ivy,sumac} and is a notorious sensitizer. It happens to some graduate students that they are unable to work in a lab any longer.
- taurusnoises 2y ago
  This is not how it works with these plants. Prolonged, sustained exposure results in worse symptoms over time as your immune response increases in intensity. https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-some-common-myths/#:~:text=Myth%202%3A%20You%20Can%20Develop%20An%20Immunity%20To%20Poison%20Ivy&text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20more%20times,it%20perceives%20as%20a%20threat https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-...
  - samatman 2y ago
    That can't possibly be true. East Asian countries have a long tradition of lacquerware, which is made with urushiol-containing saps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquerware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquerware In fact urushi is the Japanese word for lacquer, the plant is in the genus Toxicodendron. Like most jobs until recently, making lacquerware was hereditary, and (clearly) the people making it were able to withstand sustained and direct exposure. It's possible that there is a genetic proclivity involved in ability to do the work, but just as clearly, there is hyposensitivity gained in exposure. Let me back that up with a citation. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1839723/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1839723/
nashashmi 2y ago
Just wash off the chemical soon as possible. It will turn red. And then it will go away. If it bubbles up, then wrap something around it to absorb the liquid that explodes from the rash.
- ethagnawl 2y ago
  This is a bit of an oversimplification. I am probably on the more sensitive end of the spectrum when it comes to poison ivy/oak but I have gotten rashes that are legitimately debilitating (i.e. typing was very painful). This was also after washing with dish soap post-exposure. I've since switched to Tecnu and it seems to work better but, unfortunately, is ridiculously expensive.
jelliclesfarm 2y ago
I have read that the urushiol is also present in the skin of the mango fruit. I don’t know if those who consume a lot of mangoes or have grown up with mango trees around them are immune to poison oak’s urushiol(arguably much more concentrated) as its present in stems, saps, leaves, skin more than the flesh..but they likely have more tolerance. Also..in India, we don’t burn mango leaves or branches as it increases respiratory risks..which ..now that I think about it..is likely due to the urushiol
- lostfiddler 2y ago
  huh, every time I eat a kiwi my lips get itchy. I just googled and it doesn’t look like it contains urushiol, but it does contain an allergen called “actinidin”. This thread made me realize I’m allergic to kiwi’s…
  - modeless 2y ago
    You may have oral allergy syndrome (OAS), which is similar to food allergy but not as severe. It doesn't typically lead to anaphylaxis. It is caused by pollen allergy, where the food has a protein similar to one that's in the pollen you're allergic to. This is called "cross-reactivity". Personally I have OAS with raw carrots, which is likely cross-reactive from my birch pollen allergy. Raw carrots make my throat mildly itchy, but I don't have a food allergy to carrots and I don't get anaphylaxis. Cooked carrots are totally fine, the cooking destroys the protein. This is a common feature of OAS. Actually, while I did have OAS with carrots in the past, I have recently been undergoing immunotherapy for pollen allergies (plus cat dander and mold) and in addition to my hay fever symptoms disappearing, I no longer get the itchy throat with raw carrots. This page has a list of common pollen allergies and the foods that they may be cross-reactive with: https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/oral-allergy-syndrome-oas https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/oral-allergy-syndro...
    - ianburrell 2y ago
      Kiwis are also linked to latex allergy. I have friend who has latex and kiwi allergies.
talkingtab 2y ago
I have worked with Urushi, aka Japanese lacquer. You get a rash, some people never get over it. Others do get over it, and I did. Years ago I was in the black thumb club. I could stick my thumb in Urushi, and not get a rash. Since Urushi was a big thing in Japan (and other places), people who worked harvesting or packaging or using it either got over or did not. I have a friend who did not. He said he could walk down the street and detect if there was raw Urushi anywhere near by. I still got a "tingle" even when I did not get a rash. The way to tolerate the adaptation is hot water - spray water as hot as you can stand (without damage) on the affected area and you will get substantial relief for about 12 hours. The relief of hot water on an affected area cannot be understated. A friend used the word "orgasmic" and it fits. I can almost imagine someone purposefully getting the rash just to take a shower. Finally in this bizarre world of Urushi - when it is cured (warm & humid), NOT dried, the chemical properties change so the coating does not cause problems. If you see photos of Chinese or Japanese rice bows ls that are red or black they are probably wooden bowl coated with Urushi and cured. Urushi as used to make eating utensils. There is more. There are an incredible number of decorative techniques. Supposedly each village had its own. One of the best is Rankaku. Tiny chips of quail egg shells are placed to form a pattern.
- shriphani 2y ago
  would love to see some pics of your work. Since you seem to know about Japanese craft techniques - do you know what sort of adhesive is used in Japanese gold leaf application? I am not able to use bole or animal hide glue due (vegan) but was curious if the Japanese have some rice-paste based method.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Did you read about maki-e? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki-e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki-e Asian lacquerware, which may be called "true lacquer", are objects coated with the treated, dyed and dried sap of Toxicodendron vernicifluum or related trees, applied in several coats to a base that is usually wood.
  - talkingtab 2y ago
plasticchris 2y ago
As a child I used to romp through poison ivy and poison oak. It has never bothered me.
- zikduruqe 2y ago
  The more repeated exposures you get, your body cannot fight it off anymore. Then you suddenly "become allergic" to poison ivy. There are two types of people; those that are allergic to poison ivy, and those that will become allergic eventually.
  - EvanAnderson 2y ago
    I never got a rash until my late 30s (even after known exposure). Now I get the rash readily. I wish I'd avoided it more when I was younger.
  - plasticchris 2y ago
    I am almost forty now, never try to avoid it, still no problems. I even had a side gig going in high school removing it. But it is still only any anecdote.
    - gr8r 2y ago
      like the gardeners these days, did you hype the poison oak only to ask for a big $ amount to remove a small growth haha?
      - plasticchris 2y ago
        No, people know how it looks here. Usually it was full walls of the stuff.
TexanFeller 2y ago
The first few bites when fire ants came to Texas hurt. The next few hurt less. Then they came to live in the walls of my parents’ house. I would get multiple bites every day and wake up with a dozen more after every night. It wasn’t that long before they didn’t hurt or leave a bump at all anymore. First hand education in how the body develops resistance to toxins.
- m463 2y ago
  Sounds like people who get used to chili and soon start seeking 3 alarm chili and 4 alarm chili...
- animal531 2y ago
  I need this for mosquitos. They tend to go for my ankles and 1 bite is still fine, but as soon as I get 2+ the swelling up and itching just multiplies 10x.
greenie_beans 2y ago
i learned from an herbalist that you can eat poison ivy as a vaccine against it, but i've been too afraid to try.
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  According to the article, urushiol extract is considered safe and effective by the US FDA and pills were available over the counter up until the 1970s. They disappeared from the market because of regulations regarding determining exact dosage needs and the ability to make pills containing that dosage. It is, apparently, a difficult problem. But a company claims to have solved the problem and will start doing trials shortly. In other words, eating poison ivy absolutely will work. But nobody knows how much you should eat. And the leaves aren't fungible, so how can anyone tell you how many to eat even if they knew how much you should eat?
- forgotmypw17 2y ago
  i also learned this and have tried it. the way i was taught to do it is to take just the tip of a leaf from a young plant and eat that, put it on my tongue and swallow it.
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    that was how i was told to do it, too. they said to put them into gel capsules so the leaves don't touch your skin. supposedly you want to dose up like two weeks worth of gel capsules.
milleramp 2y ago
I just had a conversation today with someone who had a friend who ate poison oak for immunity. I brushed it off as bro science. What a crazy coincidence.
gadders 2y ago
Do any plants with urishoil exist in Europe any where? Fairly confident they don't in the UK. The worst common plant we have that irritates skin is the stinging nettele.
sethammons 2y ago
A guy in my village, a few years before I was alive, was immune to poison oak (as am I; not sure how common it is) and he would show off by eating a bit of it. After several years of this parlor trick, he had a severe reaction one time and went to the hospital. Throat nearly swelled shut. This guy should be aware of said story.
- im3w1l 2y ago
  Makes you wonder what went differently that one time. Does the body say produce immune cells with some level of natural variation and that one time it happened to produce ones sensitive to the substance?
eth0up 2y ago
Question: I've worn leather gloves most of my adult life. Last year, after using a new pair, I developed a severe rash that spread beyond my hands. Having used gloves regularly for many years, I initially assumed it was a reaction to formaldehyde or whatever substance was used in manufacturing. But now, without exception, any time I wear leather anywhere with direct skin contact, I get a persistent rash. Also, I have an extreme sensitivity to poison ivy and react to mango and peach leaves. Perhaps there's a clue here? Anyway, I'd be grateful to understand why I spontaneously developed an allergy to leather, which really hinders my work at times.
hollywood_court 2y ago
I grew up in the woods. I was a latchkey kid from age 5 so every afternoon I was in the woods with a dog, a horse, and a rifle. I would be covered in poison ivy each day and it never bothered me. Until I turned about 35 years old. Then I started to be affected by it every time I went out and did work on our land. Now I take precautions although I have eradicated most of the poison ivy on our lot.
spookybones 2y ago
Great, I’ll eat my cat.
giantg2 2y ago
I've actually gotten more sensitive over time. I used to be practically immune to poison ivy. I've also become somewhat sensitive to low quality cashews (they can contain urushiol from the shells).

136 points by hcrisp 2y ago

corinroyal 2y ago

Please don't do this. It's a great way to get urushiol poisoning of your GI tract.

SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
This sounds very much like something that someone might hear on Joe Rogan's podcast and think it's a good idea because someone who knows how to put two sentences together sounded like they knew what they were talking about.
- phoronixrly 2y ago
  Same with vitamin d self-medication here on HN
  - mort96 2y ago
    Is there any research out there which links moderate amounts of vitamin D (such as the recommended dosages on vitamin D supplements) to any negative effects at all? Is there any research to indicate that a lack of urushiol has negative effects, similar to how we know that a lack of vitamin D has negative effects? If not I don't really see the connection
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    There is lots of research saying that vitamin D deficiency causes problems, and the deficiency is more common than you'd expect. Other health conditions and habits can lead to a deficiency.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      There is fixing deficiency and then there is "hyper dozing". Also lot of it is seasonal, northern hemisphere is entering summer so there should be plenty of sun light even with short exposure to light.
      - wakawaka28 2y ago
        I don't think exposure to light is enough to overcome an actual deficiency. When you're exposed to light you get kind of a huge dose, until you get a tan. Then your skin won't produce much more for a while. You're right about overdoing it. There is such a thing as vitamin D poisioning. I think it draws calcium out of your bones or something. On the other hand, not enough vitamin D is bad for your bones too. Fortunately, there are tests for vitamin D. If you think you have a problem with it, you ought to get a test.
  - OJFord 2y ago
    It's not a prescription drug, so I'm not really sure what 'self-medication' means; I self-medicate with caffeine, might eat an orange and self-medicate vit C later, etc. NHS (UK) guidance: > Government advice is that everyone should consider taking a daily vitamin D supplement during the autumn and winter. > People at high risk of not getting enough vitamin D, all children aged 1 to 4, and all babies (unless they're having more than 500ml of infant formula a day) should take a daily supplement throughout the year. (People at high risk = for example darker skin, or indoor jobs.)
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    Vitamin D deficiency (and while we're at it, B12 deficiency and iron deficiency) are real deficiency issues that have risen in numbers across Western societies for quite the time now - IIRC, a large contributor is our change in diets and living habits. Basically, we're spending far less time working out in the open so our body doesn't generate vitamin D on its own in sufficient quantities, and the trend towards highly processed, nutritionally inflexible diets on one side and vegetarianism/veganism on the other side leads to a whole host of malnutrition issues. Unfortunately, the "malnutrition" levels in bloodwork are mostly calibrated on white European males... so similar to BMI [1] and a few medications and diseases [2], there is a "vitamin D paradox" in Black people who seem to not be that sensitive to lower vit-D levels than White people [3]. Human bodies and genetics are fascinating, even if you're not an expert in it. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9877251/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9877251/ [2] https://academic.oup.com/ehjcvp/article/8/7/738/6644872 https://academic.oup.com/ehjcvp/article/8/7/738/6644872 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5954269/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5954269/
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  Gradual exposure to allergens like urushiol has been a legitimate recognized treatment plan for decades. Animals are able to eat poison ivy and poison oak. It's a brave strategy to eat the stuff, but nobody including smug netizens like yourself knows if it will work for someone else. Everything that works in medicine was probably thought to be ridiculous by someone at one point. Joe Rogan isn't the best source of medical advice, but he has been smeared by the media on behalf of big pharma. His approach to treating COVID came from a doctor and was not "horse paste"... CNN was proven to have edited video of Joe Rogan to make his skin look off-color. Also, never forget that the mainstream media said the "vaccines" would stop transmission of the virus when all the experts knew it wouldn't do so, from the start. They also lied about side effects.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
    Pointing out that at some points Joe Rogan might have been smeared unjustly by mainstream media does not in any way come close to absolving the crimes JR has committed against modern science by giving constant airtime to outright quacks. Anyone remotely interested in making sure proper science knowledge and education makes it out to gen pop should be completely against Rogan and everything he stands for. It only takes one to ruin your reputation. Rogan has aired hundreds. It’s even more dangerous than one might think because sometimes, like in some examples you reference, there is some legitimate medicine mixed in.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      This is the most anti-science attitude I think I've seen in a very long time. It's also foolish and dangerous IMHO, because it greatly contributes to the very thing you want to prevent: amplification and creation of quack science to the gen pop. Simply depriving these people of airtime does NOT quash their views and make them go away. It fuels conspiracy theories such as about how big pharma is censoring ideas about natural (or already highly-available) treatments in order to make billions on devoloping their vaccines and using government levers to force people to buy them. (They did try to do that too, though they got lucky in that none of the "natural" treatments seemed to really work. But had they worked, their reaction would have been the same.) It also means the discussions people see are going to happen on shows/forums/podcasts where the host doesn't push back on them and offer challenges and critical thinking. This not only sets a terrible example for people by demonstrating through social proof that one should accept these things uncritically, but it makes it appear as though the case is very strong and there isn't a good counter-argument! This double effect makes a strong impression on people in the exact opposite way that we want. I think Joe Rogan has done more to bring sanity to these things than most people. Have you ever watched those episodes? He is very conversational but if there is ever a claim that doesn't seem supported, he will ask Jamie (his assistant or producer or whatever) look it up, and they are highly skeptical and choosy of sources. We should know by now that censoring information these days does not work. We're no longer living in the society where the average person only gets information from TV or books available at their library or local book store. If there's a quack theory out there, it will get to people through the internet. The answer is not to shut down the internet. We need to expose these ideas and defeat them using logical and scientific refutation, and we need to encourage and teach critical thinking skills. This is a new world we are living in, and the tried and true techniques or censoring and book burning do not work anymore. Embrace it and use it.
PaulHoule 2y ago
It’s not the first time I’ve heard about it. I can’t condone it but I can’t rule out that some variant of this might work. The reaction to urushiol is an allergic reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol and a vaccine is under development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDC-APB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDC-APB Some people just don’t react to it while others do. I had hay fever as a kid which developed into asthma in my 30s, I had immune therapy from a specialist who gave me increasingly concentrated shots of allergens weekly for years. After a while my asthma went into remission and I quit taking medicine for it. I still have hay fever symptoms some times but they aren’t too bad and I rarely medicate for them because I get side effects even from some of the “non-drowsy” antihistamines. Even though it is done under medical supervision, it is a controversial treatment. It’s banned in the U.K. They’d have me sit around the office for 30 minutes in case I had a bad reaction which they could usually treat with an injection of epinephrine but could be lethal if somebody was really unlucky. Note there is at least one report of treatment of poison ivy sensitivity this way https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(09)01972-1/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(09)01972-1/ful... The thing is I got a treatment from my doc which was somewhat evidence based, compare that to all the bizzaro ideas circulating such as Edgar Cayce’s idea that you could treat hay fever with an alcohol tincture of ragweed. (Got that from a herbalist once, it does seem harmless) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce
- rwmj 2y ago
  Is it the same plant that was used for shokushinbutsu, the "self-mummification" practiced by Japanese monks? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu Edit: OK, not quite. The Japanese lacquer tree was used which produces the same "active" substance which is what slowly kills you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernicifluum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_vernicifluum
  - mlyle 2y ago
    > which is what slowly kills you Again, not quite: starvation by not eating normal food is what kills you. Urushiol is non-toxic at even massive doses; but vanishingly small doses will provoke painful/itchy allergic reactions in many people.
alecst 2y ago
Would be nice if you addressed the article instead of the headline. It’s actually fascinating.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
  Unfortunately the article is paywalled
x3n0ph3n3 2y ago
Urushiol soup is actually a common East-Asian folk remedy and you can order it in some restaurants -- I've actually had it. It's not exactly a _toxin_, just sometimes trigger allergic reactions.

freefaler 2y ago

https://archive.ph/F4PZX https://archive.ph/F4PZX

skepticalmd 2y ago

Absurd that there is zero mention of Mithridates in the article. As always, Chesterton's Fence applies to medicine. Be very wary of anything outside of healthy diet, sleep, exercise, and relationships. If you don't know why your body is fevering, don't lower the fever. If you don't know why your blood pressure is high, don't lower it. We in the medical field vastly overestimate our understanding of human physiology.

Sebb767 2y ago
> If you don't know why your body is fevering, don't lower the fever. If you don't know why your blood pressure is high, don't lower it. And if you don't know why you have cancer, don't do anything about it? Like, I get the point with fever (which is a known defense mechanism), but high blood pressure is a big problem in the long run and even if it's just a symptom, not doing anything about it is not likely to be the best move.
- samtho 2y ago
  The point is that we treat certain things like high blood pressure as a primary issue instead of a secondary one. Instead of addressing something cholesterol, which can often be a lifestyle issue, more emphasis is placed on just taking the statin.
  - lazide 2y ago
    because most people will refuse to address the lifestyle issue, not because they aren’t made extremely aware of it!
wetpaws 2y ago
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mmastrac 2y ago
This is so wrong, sorry. Humans evolved to reproduce as a species successfully, not to ensure the optimum survival of an individual. Not everything your body does is in your best interests: something that tends to be the best solution for long-term survival for a group might be entirely wrong for your specific case.

michaelbuckbee 2y ago

Several kids in our family's social group have successfully undergone desensitization therapy for severe nut allergies. It was much more rigorous than the author's approach, with weekly doctor visits and taking increasingly large amounts of whatever they were allergic to (starting with micrograms of nut powder). I think my niece had the best time as she eventually was advised to start eating daily measured amounts of nutella. I mention this mostly because I do think the author was a bit cavalier in his approach (mostly because it's hard to accurately judge dosage from wild plants) but also to just spread the word that the allergy desensitization therapies are out there and quite effective and life changing.

wawayanda 2y ago
I have direct experience with this and it is indeed a miracle. What's interesting is that the protocol largely emerged outside the regulatory channels, with a handful of doctors worldwide developing it once the science became clear that exposure could help and more and more offering it to patients every year. These allergists have carefully figured out regimens that work and it can take a year of daily dosing, with dose sizes increasing twice monthly, until one can safely eat, say, a handful of peanuts. There's still today another camp: Many allergists still preach avoidance however and put fear into worried parents about the dangers of oral immunotherapy. Because it can be hard to find an office that will run your immunotherapy program for you, or costly if you do, many parents are doing it on their own, following dosing protocols they find in Facebook groups or on YouTube. The ones I've seen have been supportive and helpful, not quackery. Meanwhile the medical establishment is finding ways to monetize this immunotherapy by turning, for example, peanut doses into pharmaceuticals, e.g. Palforzia, which is a recently FDA approved "food allergy treatment" and is in fact simply peanut protein.
- modeless 2y ago
  Oral immunotherapy is indeed dangerous. Eosinophilic esophagitis is real. Anaphylaxis is common. It's a long, tedious road, with daily dosing for years, and in many people the treatment ends in failure rendering the effort wasted. Although many do achieve remission, there is no guarantee that the allergy is gone for good. The immunity obtained by immunotherapy is not necessarily the same as natural immunity. It may not be complete and it may not be long lasting. The immune system has a long, long memory and we do not have any reliable tests to determine if anyone's immunity is permanent. For that reason allergists recommend continuing dosing indefinitely to maintain immunity, and continuing to carry an epi-pen. For the rest of your life. You will get sick of peanut butter. All that said, we are doing sublingual immunotherapy for our son. But I am hoping that within his lifetime new treatments are developed that will free him from allergies completely. Precise control of the immune system would be the holy grail of medicine IMO. Dysfunctions of the immune system are at the root of so many diseases, not just allergies. If the immune system could be easily trained to ignore or attack arbitrary targets at will it could likely cure almost any infection or cancer. And I bet it could be useful in treating the diseases of aging as well.

FLT8 2y ago

My first introduction to urushiol was as a kid... there was a Japanese rhus tree [1] near my local bus stop and I happened to play with some of the seed pods while waiting for a bus one day. I ended up looking like the elephant man for a few days, and it took a bit of time to figure out what was going on. It turns out that Urushiol shows up in some surprising places, including mango skin, which I discovered later in life after peeling a bunch of mangoes to make a mango salad. Apparently the husks of cashew nuts are notoriously bad for the workers who deal with them too (although the nuts themselves are perfectly safe).. I don't think I'm likely to deliberately eat anything with urushiol in it, but I must admit, the idea of being able to train my immune system to deal with it is kind of appealing. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_succedaneum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_succedaneum

sdwr 2y ago
My sister got a strange rash on her face growing up.. our pediatrician traced it back to the boxes of mangos she ate

DeathArrow 2y ago

Metamizole is the only thing that works for me when I have fever. But it seems that I recently developped an allergy to it, which is a bummer. Every single damn time I take metamizole, I develop very itch rashes. So by taking some substance it seem I became more sensitive to it's side effects, not less.

goda90 2y ago
The immune system is so complex. I have to wonder if allergies develop when something else is stressing the immune system and it misidentifies the culprit.
- modeless 2y ago
  Current research seems to suggest that allergies develop when the immune system doesn't find anything to fight and goes looking for trouble (the hygiene hypothesis). Although that is a long term effect and I think it's likely that what you said is true as well, on a short term basis. There's also a big difference in being exposed to the natural environment with lots of bacteria and viruses and plants that don't cause disease in humans, which is really what the hygiene hypothesis is about, and getting sick with human diseases, which is not actually beneficial in any way (the immunity gained this way is narrow, not broad, it doesn't "train" your immune system to fight anything but the particular strain of whatever you got). So my best guess is that when you live a life indoors for years without much exposure to natural outdoor bacteria/viruses/plants, and then you encounter a human disease, your immune system goes into overdrive and misidentifies the culprit.
rvba 2y ago
I never found any drug that can actually reduce fever and is available without prescription.
aae42 2y ago
This article, and your story reminds me of a University of Guelph professors info regarding bee stings. https://hbrc.ca/bee-stings/ https://hbrc.ca/bee-stings/ Those most at risk of developing anaphylaxis from bee stings are not those that get some as rarely as the typical population, or as often as experienced and busy beekeepers wearing mediocre protection, it was the hobbyists wearing complete protection that only got stung once or twice a year. Made me start wearing a little less protection for fear of developing a stronger allergy.

harimau777 2y ago

Does anyone know why desensitization works for some allergies but for other things, like latex, the more you are exposed to them the more likely you are to develop an allergy?

modeless 2y ago
It's not just the amount of exposure, it's the type. Skin exposure is generally sensitizing. Mouth exposure is generally desensitizing, as long as it is below the threshold that causes a severe reaction, and the exposure is more often than roughly twice weekly (the more often the better). This may be a reason why babies stick everything in their mouths. This is the basis of oral immunotherapy, and if you ate latex daily it could possibly desensitize you. However, the immune system is insanely complicated and not fully understood. There are a lot of gotchas here. It may actually be possible to desensitize with skin exposure with careful control of the dose, as there are some 'skin patch" treatments that work for some people although generally not nearly as well as the oral route. Not all allergies are the same, and may not be treatable by exposure in some people. The immunity obtained by immunotherapy may not be the same as natural immunity, it may disappear over time, and the treatment itself can have hard to detect but severe chronic side effects like eosinophilic esophagitis. So don't DIY! Interestingly I have heard that mango skin contains the same irritant chemical as poison oak. I wonder if eating mango skin would help desensitize people to poison oak. I once ate a very small amount by accident and had a weird feeling in my throat and a bad taste in my mouth for ten minutes afterward, so it sounds pretty unpleasant to me.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  Mithridatism is pretty well-studied at this point, and an allegist can likely help with any sort of desensitization that you do. Many common allergies have available therapies at this point. Latex may be an exception depending on the mechanism of action, but almost all organic compounds that can be metabolized by your body can be adapted to.
muffinman26 2y ago
My layman's understanding is that the key to desensitization is that it has to be below the level of a certain kind of reaction. Allergies occur because the immune system incorrectly associates a substance with a bad reaction, and so attacks it as it would a pathogen. The problem is that the allergen isn't a pathogen, and so the immune system can't actually kill it. There's a treatment for pet/pollen/etc. allergies that works by injecting a very small quantity of the allergenic substance every week, slowly building up tolerance. The body learns that the small dose didn't cause problems, and slowly gets accustomed to higher and higher doses. If the doctor sets the dosage too high, the body has an allergic reaction and then that allergic reaction reinforces the immune system's determination that the substance is dangerous. The treatment response to this is to drastically reduce the dosage and try again. If the sibling comment's assertation that oral exposure was desensitizing was correct, that wouldn't explain why some people develop food allergies later in life. (As one anecdotal example, my Wilderness First Responder instructor was slowly getting more and more allergic to mangos.)

el_benhameen 2y ago

According to family lore, my grandmother’s rural northern-ca elementary school teacher had the class eat some poison oak. Despite living in prime poison oak territory and being a lifelong outdoors person, she never got it. I always assumed it was some wild folk medicine ritual, so it’s interesting to see that there might be some basis for it.

AlbertCory 2y ago

Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. By way of contrast, I've told my doctor about sinus rinsing, and she was not disapproving. But she said, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." I think this is a better response than blanket disapproval. The corresponding response to urushiol desensitization would be "There's no guidance on this. Be very careful! Here are some risks." Which is the best you should expect from an establishment doctor. A homeopathic doctor would tell you a lot of stuff that might or might not be accurate or safe.

burnte 2y ago
> Doctors are pretty much required to follow Establishment medicine. They're not going to tell you about folk remedies, because it could be malpractice for them. Not in the USA. In the USA doctors can absolutely recommend non-medical treatments like supplements and homeopathy and other crap. Each doctor has their own threshold of comfort in what they will and won't recommend. But as you yourself then followed up, your doctor said when you brought up nasal rinses, "a lot of my patients do this and they seem to like it." Other doctors will go so far as to suggest them, mine has, and he was right. My doctor (same doc for my wife) will bring up lots of things, and explains his position on them all clearly, even explaining risks and things. He even went so far one time as to suggest a Chinese medicine treatment for a rare disorder my wife has. He didn't say it would work, but said he's heard about it and it should be risk free if she wanted to try it. Doctors are allowed to recommend lots of things, it's the presentation and outcome that define liability. If a Dr says "you should shove bees up your butt to cure this ear infection" then yeah, they're going to get in trouble. But it's a lot less black and white than you seem to feel. Note: I've worked in real-medicine healthcare for 9 years now.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  OK. I said "pretty much" which leaves a lot of wiggle room.
- Zenzero 2y ago
  > But it's a lot less black and white than you seem to feel. That's the problem. The concept of what is reasonable is too nebulous to rely on. Also people are quite simply really dumb. You can make some innocuous statement like "others have found nasal rinses to be beneficial", and some idiot will get themselves hospitalized with a draining abscess in their face. It turns out that person decided their nasal rinse was going to be alternating eucalyptus oil and bone broth because someone on Facebook said that was the most healing, and they claim that you as their doctor said it was OK. The case gets escalated to you having to explain to the board that you didn't make any such claim, but because there is a record of you saying that nasal rinses can be beneficial, it can be at the discretion of a "reasonable person" if that skirted too close to their line of culpability for the injury that the person sustained. The solution is to stick close to what is accepted medicine, and if people want to complain about establishment medicine, then let them. Doctors understand there is safety in the herd.

addingadimensio 2y ago

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foobarian 2y ago

If this would help with poison ivy outbreaks I would be all over this.

jandrewrogers 2y ago

You don't need to eat it. A well-known phenomenon in the US military is that some of the sites for Basic Training of new recruits have prodigious quantities of poison oak/ivy/sumac as the local flora. As consequence of the military training, you are rolling around in those plants daily. Initially, a large percentage of people have the usual reaction but it quickly disappears after a few weeks and it never happens again, providing apparent permanent immunity. This is in contrast to the experience many kids have in the US of sporadic exposure and no immunity. Apparently intense sustained exposure is required.

HarryHirsch 2y ago
That's the exact opposite to what happens with DCC in chemical labs. DCC reacts with amino groups in proteins, same as urushiol in poison {oak,ivy,sumac} and is a notorious sensitizer. It happens to some graduate students that they are unable to work in a lab any longer.
taurusnoises 2y ago
This is not how it works with these plants. Prolonged, sustained exposure results in worse symptoms over time as your immune response increases in intensity. https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-some-common-myths/#:~:text=Myth%202%3A%20You%20Can%20Develop%20An%20Immunity%20To%20Poison%20Ivy&text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20more%20times,it%20perceives%20as%20a%20threat https://www.pbsnc.org/blogs/science/poison-ivy-and-its-pals-...
- samatman 2y ago
  That can't possibly be true. East Asian countries have a long tradition of lacquerware, which is made with urushiol-containing saps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquerware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquerware In fact urushi is the Japanese word for lacquer, the plant is in the genus Toxicodendron. Like most jobs until recently, making lacquerware was hereditary, and (clearly) the people making it were able to withstand sustained and direct exposure. It's possible that there is a genetic proclivity involved in ability to do the work, but just as clearly, there is hyposensitivity gained in exposure. Let me back that up with a citation. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1839723/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1839723/

nashashmi 2y ago

Just wash off the chemical soon as possible. It will turn red. And then it will go away. If it bubbles up, then wrap something around it to absorb the liquid that explodes from the rash.

ethagnawl 2y ago
This is a bit of an oversimplification. I am probably on the more sensitive end of the spectrum when it comes to poison ivy/oak but I have gotten rashes that are legitimately debilitating (i.e. typing was very painful). This was also after washing with dish soap post-exposure. I've since switched to Tecnu and it seems to work better but, unfortunately, is ridiculously expensive.

jelliclesfarm 2y ago

I have read that the urushiol is also present in the skin of the mango fruit. I don’t know if those who consume a lot of mangoes or have grown up with mango trees around them are immune to poison oak’s urushiol(arguably much more concentrated) as its present in stems, saps, leaves, skin more than the flesh..but they likely have more tolerance. Also..in India, we don’t burn mango leaves or branches as it increases respiratory risks..which ..now that I think about it..is likely due to the urushiol

lostfiddler 2y ago
huh, every time I eat a kiwi my lips get itchy. I just googled and it doesn’t look like it contains urushiol, but it does contain an allergen called “actinidin”. This thread made me realize I’m allergic to kiwi’s…
- modeless 2y ago
  You may have oral allergy syndrome (OAS), which is similar to food allergy but not as severe. It doesn't typically lead to anaphylaxis. It is caused by pollen allergy, where the food has a protein similar to one that's in the pollen you're allergic to. This is called "cross-reactivity". Personally I have OAS with raw carrots, which is likely cross-reactive from my birch pollen allergy. Raw carrots make my throat mildly itchy, but I don't have a food allergy to carrots and I don't get anaphylaxis. Cooked carrots are totally fine, the cooking destroys the protein. This is a common feature of OAS. Actually, while I did have OAS with carrots in the past, I have recently been undergoing immunotherapy for pollen allergies (plus cat dander and mold) and in addition to my hay fever symptoms disappearing, I no longer get the itchy throat with raw carrots. This page has a list of common pollen allergies and the foods that they may be cross-reactive with: https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/oral-allergy-syndrome-oas https://www.chop.edu/conditions-diseases/oral-allergy-syndro...
  - ianburrell 2y ago
    Kiwis are also linked to latex allergy. I have friend who has latex and kiwi allergies.

talkingtab 2y ago

I have worked with Urushi, aka Japanese lacquer. You get a rash, some people never get over it. Others do get over it, and I did. Years ago I was in the black thumb club. I could stick my thumb in Urushi, and not get a rash. Since Urushi was a big thing in Japan (and other places), people who worked harvesting or packaging or using it either got over or did not. I have a friend who did not. He said he could walk down the street and detect if there was raw Urushi anywhere near by. I still got a "tingle" even when I did not get a rash. The way to tolerate the adaptation is hot water - spray water as hot as you can stand (without damage) on the affected area and you will get substantial relief for about 12 hours. The relief of hot water on an affected area cannot be understated. A friend used the word "orgasmic" and it fits. I can almost imagine someone purposefully getting the rash just to take a shower. Finally in this bizarre world of Urushi - when it is cured (warm & humid), NOT dried, the chemical properties change so the coating does not cause problems. If you see photos of Chinese or Japanese rice bows ls that are red or black they are probably wooden bowl coated with Urushi and cured. Urushi as used to make eating utensils. There is more. There are an incredible number of decorative techniques. Supposedly each village had its own. One of the best is Rankaku. Tiny chips of quail egg shells are placed to form a pattern.

shriphani 2y ago
would love to see some pics of your work. Since you seem to know about Japanese craft techniques - do you know what sort of adhesive is used in Japanese gold leaf application? I am not able to use bole or animal hide glue due (vegan) but was curious if the Japanese have some rice-paste based method.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Did you read about maki-e? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki-e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki-e Asian lacquerware, which may be called "true lacquer", are objects coated with the treated, dyed and dried sap of Toxicodendron vernicifluum or related trees, applied in several coats to a base that is usually wood.
- talkingtab 2y ago

plasticchris 2y ago

As a child I used to romp through poison ivy and poison oak. It has never bothered me.

zikduruqe 2y ago
The more repeated exposures you get, your body cannot fight it off anymore. Then you suddenly "become allergic" to poison ivy. There are two types of people; those that are allergic to poison ivy, and those that will become allergic eventually.
- EvanAnderson 2y ago
  I never got a rash until my late 30s (even after known exposure). Now I get the rash readily. I wish I'd avoided it more when I was younger.
- plasticchris 2y ago
  I am almost forty now, never try to avoid it, still no problems. I even had a side gig going in high school removing it. But it is still only any anecdote.
  - gr8r 2y ago
    like the gardeners these days, did you hype the poison oak only to ask for a big $ amount to remove a small growth haha?
    - plasticchris 2y ago
      No, people know how it looks here. Usually it was full walls of the stuff.

TexanFeller 2y ago

The first few bites when fire ants came to Texas hurt. The next few hurt less. Then they came to live in the walls of my parents’ house. I would get multiple bites every day and wake up with a dozen more after every night. It wasn’t that long before they didn’t hurt or leave a bump at all anymore. First hand education in how the body develops resistance to toxins.

m463 2y ago
Sounds like people who get used to chili and soon start seeking 3 alarm chili and 4 alarm chili...
animal531 2y ago
I need this for mosquitos. They tend to go for my ankles and 1 bite is still fine, but as soon as I get 2+ the swelling up and itching just multiplies 10x.

greenie_beans 2y ago

i learned from an herbalist that you can eat poison ivy as a vaccine against it, but i've been too afraid to try.

Kon-Peki 2y ago
According to the article, urushiol extract is considered safe and effective by the US FDA and pills were available over the counter up until the 1970s. They disappeared from the market because of regulations regarding determining exact dosage needs and the ability to make pills containing that dosage. It is, apparently, a difficult problem. But a company claims to have solved the problem and will start doing trials shortly. In other words, eating poison ivy absolutely will work. But nobody knows how much you should eat. And the leaves aren't fungible, so how can anyone tell you how many to eat even if they knew how much you should eat?
forgotmypw17 2y ago
i also learned this and have tried it. the way i was taught to do it is to take just the tip of a leaf from a young plant and eat that, put it on my tongue and swallow it.
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  that was how i was told to do it, too. they said to put them into gel capsules so the leaves don't touch your skin. supposedly you want to dose up like two weeks worth of gel capsules.

milleramp 2y ago

I just had a conversation today with someone who had a friend who ate poison oak for immunity. I brushed it off as bro science. What a crazy coincidence.

gadders 2y ago

Do any plants with urishoil exist in Europe any where? Fairly confident they don't in the UK. The worst common plant we have that irritates skin is the stinging nettele.

sethammons 2y ago

A guy in my village, a few years before I was alive, was immune to poison oak (as am I; not sure how common it is) and he would show off by eating a bit of it. After several years of this parlor trick, he had a severe reaction one time and went to the hospital. Throat nearly swelled shut. This guy should be aware of said story.

im3w1l 2y ago
Makes you wonder what went differently that one time. Does the body say produce immune cells with some level of natural variation and that one time it happened to produce ones sensitive to the substance?

eth0up 2y ago

Question: I've worn leather gloves most of my adult life. Last year, after using a new pair, I developed a severe rash that spread beyond my hands. Having used gloves regularly for many years, I initially assumed it was a reaction to formaldehyde or whatever substance was used in manufacturing. But now, without exception, any time I wear leather anywhere with direct skin contact, I get a persistent rash. Also, I have an extreme sensitivity to poison ivy and react to mango and peach leaves. Perhaps there's a clue here? Anyway, I'd be grateful to understand why I spontaneously developed an allergy to leather, which really hinders my work at times.

hollywood_court 2y ago

I grew up in the woods. I was a latchkey kid from age 5 so every afternoon I was in the woods with a dog, a horse, and a rifle. I would be covered in poison ivy each day and it never bothered me. Until I turned about 35 years old. Then I started to be affected by it every time I went out and did work on our land. Now I take precautions although I have eradicated most of the poison ivy on our lot.

spookybones 2y ago

Great, I’ll eat my cat.

giantg2 2y ago

I've actually gotten more sensitive over time. I used to be practically immune to poison ivy. I've also become somewhat sensitive to low quality cashews (they can contain urushiol from the shells).