8 ms·

I don't know your sister so I won't comment on her particular case. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of these "quality of life" career choices often involve

I don't know your sister so I won't comment on her particular case. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of these "quality of life" career choices often involve a partner - men, more often than not - swallowing the trash in a corporate job.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
yup. currently paying those bills now, or rather, every month. don't love IT, but one of us needs to get enough cash to live.
sshine 2y ago
> swallowing the trash in a corporate job My wife is an artist with a marketing degree. I love programming. Swallowing trash at work just feels less painful to me.
- throwawaysleep 2y ago
  I doubt he disputes that men can love their work. It is just they have fewer options if they do not.
  - superb_dev 2y ago
    What options are closed to men?
    - dudul 2y ago
      Looking pretty and finding a sugar-mommy?
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        It is an option; I remember an article on HEMA that mentioned a participant who was idle and supported by his wife. But it's a much more competitive option for men than it is for women. (That is, a man attempting to fill this role will face much tougher competition than a woman trying to do the same thing. It's not that the option is competitive with other options.)
        mlrtime 2y ago
        These types of discussions where people are very careful to be politically correct seem to always break down. Of course you will find some outlier situation where one gender can do the same as another. This is not helpful and not the course of discussion. We're talking about what actually happens statistically, now and for generations. Men are not the same as Woman, they aren't now, never have been and never will be.
        dudul 2y ago
        I think it's well understood yes. When an option is only available to 1% of the population I believe it is fair to say that it's not really an option.
    - dijit 2y ago
      I think men are looked down on if they go back to study, take an unpaid internship, become house-husbands (IE; non-breadwinners), exclusively attempt a creative endeavour (high risk enjoyable pursuits are seen as self-indulgent and lazy) or if they change career later in life (after 28~). If I think the same of women, I do not believe that we would typically look down on them or consider them bad people in the same way for being somehow deficient in capability (IE; "a loser") or shirking responsibility if they decided to do those things. In this sense, those opportunities can be considered effectively closed to them.
      - singleshot_ 2y ago
        I went back to study, took on an unpaid internship, and changed careers later in life. It was awesome and it seems to make a lot of people who stuck to their first career jealous. You may look down on men such as me, but most people appear not to do so. I admit I don't know too much about the house-husband or the creative endeavor.
        dijit 2y ago
        I don't look down on you, I consider myself a bit more egalitarian in my principles than that. Is your notion then that you did not face social stigma? That would be an interesting counter-anecdote to what I said, may I ask where you live?
  - benterix 2y ago
    I disagree. Granted, they are less likely to earn money on OnlyFans etc., but apart from that they can do the same things: they can be artists and do low paying jobs that they like. What I agree though is that if they do chose a low-paying job, it might be more difficult for them to find a partner, which is not necessarily true for women. We are still by and large living in cultures where the male has to bring home the bacon ("a real man knows how to take care of his family") and it will take decades for it to change, if ever.
    - Sammi 2y ago
      The phenomenon is cross cultural, meaning it's biological not cultural. Women tend to prefer men who can provide. Men tend to prefer women who are young fertile caregivers. Mythological stories across cultures reflect this general tendency. It's not something we made up recently or locally. It's a global timeless phenomenon.
fire_lake 2y ago
Sad but true. The publishing industry (think Penguin books) is full of independently wealthy white women - “This unpaid internship is a fantastic career opportunity!”
- PartiallyTyped 2y ago
  Edit: disregard the comment. Sadly enough, independently wealthy people are virtually the only ones who could actually publish consistently and thus possibly earn something out of the whole endeavour — under the assumption that any single book by an unknown / non-celebrity author has equal probability of being a hit. Reality seems to be that most books are failures, publishers prefer celebrities as that reduces marketing costs, and they prefer established audiences. This is a good read on the topic: https://www.elysian.press/p/no-one-buys-books https://www.elysian.press/p/no-one-buys-books
  - delfinom 2y ago
    https://slate.com/culture/2024/04/book-sales-publishing-industry-statistics-substack-penguin-lawsuit.html https://slate.com/culture/2024/04/book-sales-publishing-indu... A rebuttal to that article.
    - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
      Very interesting, thank you for the new knowledge!
- TMWNN 2y ago
  Historically and today, a sought-after job for a young woman out of college who has majored in, say, English with wealthy parents is in publishing/media in NYC, with the parents paying the bills (publishing doesn't pay very much at the entry level). It's a genteel job that the parents can tell their friends about, and the daughter can meet suitable men; the classic marriage among these types has the husband working in finance and the wife in media.
colmvp 2y ago
Or possibly financial assistance from the Bank of Mom and Dad.
- apantel 2y ago
  Aka non-state welfare.
giantg2 2y ago
This is my experience as well.
exitb 2y ago
How often do you actually see people go „oh we have enough, we’re going to take lower paying jobs”? People work these jobs regardless of their partner's income.
- sojournerc 2y ago
  I recently switched from a 15 year programming career to becoming an apprentice woodworker at an architectural millwork shop, and I could do it because I have a partner with income that can support us both. Might not be often, but it certainly happens
- __s 2y ago
  My father took a 1 dollar pay cut from 16 CAD/hour to 15 CAD/hour. Working in furniture repair he wanted to transfer from house calls (driving everyday) to in-shop repairs My mother's a secretary (they call them administrative assistants now to be correct). She could advance her career by becoming a clerk, which mostly does more of the same, only more. Instead she's happy where she's at I used to work for Microsoft. I left for a startup (peerdb) & while my pay didn't go down, that meant leaving behind >50k USD in unvested stocks & my salary growth at Microsoft was pretty fast (hired as junior in 2019, was one promo away from principal when I left in 2023) which I don't expect a startup environment to match
  - vsnf 2y ago
    > Junior in 2019, was one promo away from principal when I left in 2023 I'm broadly unfamiliar with Microsoft's promotion culture, but this strikes me as incredible. But in the "something seems incorrect" sense of the word. Were you hired at an incorrectly low level, were you a one-in-a-million talent, or is there huge title inflation at Microsoft now?
    - __s 2y ago
      Incorrectly low level (tho I'd like to think I'm uniquely talented too) Had ~10 years of experience working at small companies (pointerware, mldsolutions) after dropping out of college (had internship with pointeware where I correctly guessed they'd hire me if I dropped out). Interviewed at Citus a week before they announced being acquired, got shooed in. Junior pay at MS was still 2x salary increase
throwawaysleep 2y ago
I can’t say I have heard of or know of a man who has done a “quality of life” career without either inheriting or getting rich first.
- coldtea 2y ago
  Widen your social circle
  - jollofricepeas 2y ago
    Underrated comment and great advice. If all your friends and acquaintances look like you and don’t have differing perspectives, then you should totally widen your social circle. Speak less, learn more. Ask questions. Break out of the loop. Say no to the algorithm.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      >Underrated comment and great advice. useless swipe and naive advice, especially in this day and age. I can barely make friends who share my hobbies, what hope do I have in breaking the ice with someone completely different? I'm not going to specifically crash other meetups just to "expand my horizons". >Speak less, learn more. yes, that's why inroverts dont make as many friends, and are instead arguing with each other on Hacker News.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      To be a little more helpful, I'll add that people DO take “quality of life” careers "without either inheriting or getting rich first". Just ask your average gigging musician, writer, designer, and so on. People who run "lifestyle" business and refuse to grow them outside a living income. People who opted out of the rat race, from the start, or mid-career, and downsized, without being rich, to have more time with family, reduce stress, etc.
- giantg2 2y ago
  I know of one or two supported by a high earning wife. But it seems rare.
marcianx 2y ago
Reminds me of Max Shulman's advice to aspiring authors: "Marry money"
afavour 2y ago
[]
- imtringued 2y ago
  Men aren't supposed to make more money and the wage gap is in favour of women when you look at recent male vs female graduation rates simply because there are more educated women.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    > wage gap is in favour of women Hahahahaha… no. You can argue that the wage gap is an imperfect metric and that it can't take into account certain advantages but it has not ever been in favor of women. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pay-gap-facts/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pa...
    - cristiancavalli 2y ago
      Not sure why your valid point is being downvoted. You also brought a source which most people don’t bother. Kudos!
    - tim333 2y ago
      I saw stats in the UK that for women who had not had kids yet the average pay was slightly higher in the same job than for blokes. Kids are the main thing that makes the difference.
      - Spivak 2y ago
        You're talking about the adjusted wage gap, not the wage gap. The adjusted wage gap measures sexism on an individual basis — all else being equal. The wage gap measures sexism on a societal basis, this is where the "explained" parts fall away. If 10% of the gap is explained by women having lower paying roles then that's good. Women aren't getting paid (that much) less for the same work. But it doesn't fix the issue of women systematically working lower paying roles or roles typically held by women being seen as less valuable. The straight wage gap has never been in favor of women. "Men and women make the same when you control for the variables that cause them to make less" isn't as applicable when you're talking about group dynamics.
timmg 2y ago
Interestingly, for my older sister, the answer is yes. For my younger sister, it is no. I agree with the point, though. It's more socially acceptable for a women to choose a lower paying job that she prefers.
- boppo1 2y ago
  Yeah, I'm a man working a low paying job that I enjoy. Almost everyone I know seems to look down on me for it. 'When will you get a real job', 'when will you start your career?'
  - MaKey 2y ago
    Sorry to hear that. Does it affect your dating life too?
    - boppo1 2y ago
      What dating life? I was at a grocery store today and wound up flirting with a cutie, but I don't make enough money to pay for myself to go out for dinner more than once a month. The expenses a typical woman expects (from my experience) are beyond what I can afford.
      - achenet 2y ago
        go for hippie chicks who like doing acroyoga in the park, they're cheap dates :)
  - cristiancavalli 2y ago
    Good for you! You should do what makes you happy and revel in the knowledge that you provide many different kinds of value and you yourself extract value from something you like doing in multiple ways. The way I think about it: no one else has to be me and work my job. Since im going to so the work then I will choose how and what I do so long as I can. It took time for me to build the emotional strength to do what I love and not care about what others think but working on that intentionally has brought so many unforeseen, manifold benefits that I wouldn’t change that path for any other opportunity.
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  - 000ooo000 2y ago
    What are you on about? People demand data and statistics in order to verify claims. >a lot of x often involves y is a broad claim which warrants more than a few anecdotes. GP may have an unpleasant tone but they're not wrong for asking that a sweeping generalisation come with something more solid than 1 person's perspective.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      >People demand data and statistics in order to verify claims. I don't like the "educate yourself" dismissal for answers like these, but the divides in income and gender isn't exactly a niche topic. If you can believe that women often won't date men who make less and that women more often become stay at home parents than men, you can derive why woman may be more likely to pursue passions that pay a pittance compared to men in a relationship. If any of those 2 points feel contentious, all I'll say is Google it. I'm not interested in digging up such common facts for someone else.
cableshaft 2y ago
Yep, at least in my case. My wife is able to pursue her fiction writing career full-time right now because I'm still working a corporate job. Just before deciding she was too burnt out and had to quit she was working a 130k/year proposal management job and self-publishing a book a year on the side. Right now she's making a little over 1k/month with her fiction writing (and just recently started offering editing services on the side, which she's gotten a few customers already), so it's definitely been shock to our finances ($140k -> ~$12k), and our emergency savings have been steadily draining every month, although we have been able to tighten the belt on several things so it hasn't been as steep as it would if we had maintained the same lifestyle. But she's a lot happier, and she's very talented, and she's had multiple millions of page reads on Kindle unlimited already and her books are highly rated, so hopefully this takes off (there are writers in her genre making hundreds of thousands, including a couple writers she's friends with, maybe she'll become one herself, although I'd be happy if she can get it to the point where it's like $60k/year). I also wouldn't mind a break from my own corporate job so I can hopefully work on my own creative works fulltime as well (I code video games and design board games in my spare time), but obviously we can't both afford to do this at the same time, we'd be homeless pretty quick. But yeah, in the meantime, I'm 'swallowing the trash' in a corporate job.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > hopefully this takes off (there are writers in her genre making hundreds of thousands, including a couple writers she's friends with, maybe she'll become one herself, although I'd be happy if she can get it to the point where it's like $60k/year) That might be more difficult than becoming a runaway success. I don't think the distribution of author earnings peaks in the middle.
  - cableshaft 2y ago
    I can see that. A lot of things tend to be bimodal in their distribution. Let's hope she becomes a runaway success then :). And if not, it's not like she lost her ability to do proposal management. If it gets to that point, I'm sure she could find a well-paying job again if need be. She's got a lot more practice with those interviews than I do, in fact, since she would interview when recruiters contacted her with a potentially better-paying job even if she wasn't really looking at the moment, whereas I tend to ignore recruiters when I'm not actively looking (or at least debating if I should start looking).
uptime 2y ago
Wow this tuned into a different narrative quickly. The above comment did not blame women for men’s plight but did not compare apples to apples. Gender pay gaps usually involve different wages for same work, not downgrades that all genders do. The “great” thing about cutthroat paring down by groups like private capital in management is all genders get downgraded at the same rate. So equity will even out in the race to the bottom, and we can enjoy more balanced stories of men contributing less to the household income.
- dijit 2y ago
  > Gender pay gaps usually involve different wages for same work That's not true, the oft-touted statistics are "77cents on the dollar", which is taking median women's earnings when employed with median men's earnings when employed, without regard to hours worked or responsibility[0]. In fact when accounting for hours worked, years of experience, responsibility and before maternity age women typically out-earn men[1][2], though mostly in large urban environments. I don't think anyone is blaming women here, but I think we should speak with factual information, lest we continue to propagate myths or erroneous talking points. Please keep in mind that women seem to be disproportionately disadvantaged after having children, which is what the study from pew research concludes after noting the early advantage for women. [0]: https://now.org/resource/the-gender-pay-gap-myth-vs-fact/ https://now.org/resource/the-gender-pay-gap-myth-vs-fact/ -- "By comparing differences in annual earnings between men and women, we find that there is about a 23 cent difference per dollar according to the Census Bureau." [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... [2]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/young-women-earnings-gender-quality-b2046389.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/young-wome...
  - apantel 2y ago
    > Please keep in mind that women seem to be disproportionately disadvantaged after having children That’s because children are a full time job — the hours, the energy required, but especially the cognitive load. If the woman takes on some or most of that responsibility, then any other job she has becomes a second job.
lemper 2y ago
bro your comment hits a bit too close to home. my partner took her master's degree yet she couldn't find a matching job in our area. at the very least, she now has better grasp on some things that actually matter to our life and her input is really valuable for me. so all in all, it's fine I guess.
klyrs 2y ago
Well, my brother is a musician and rents a room in a large house. He doesn't have a sugar mama/papa, music pays the the bills because he's actually frugal. For decades my dad implored him to "get a job" but in his mid-40s he's still is still happy with his life. Some other working musicians have partners with a higher income, but many don't; it's more common for them to be happily single or coupled with other musicians. If you don't like swallowing corporate trash, don't. If you want to bring somebody along on your quest for enrichment, recognize that your choice there is yours.
- Taurenking 2y ago
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barbariangrunge 2y ago
To chime in, I see a lot of women supporting their men as well, probably more often tbh. But yeah, one stressed out breadwinner, one struggling x isn’t that uncommon. For some reason I’ve seen a lot of breadwinners go into the trades rather than corporate
- deleted 2y ago
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solumunus 2y ago
This point would have been better made without involving gender. Who cares if it’s more often than not the man? That’s completely irrelevant. Unless your point really was about the gender, in which case you should elaborate.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >Who cares if it’s more often than not the man? women, to put it crudely. >in which case you should elaborate. what's to elaborate on? Women are much less likely to "date down" econmically than men. Hence, women are less often the "breadwinners" and as such may be more likely to either spend their time as a full time parent or chasing jobs for passions over compensation. These aren't novel phenomenon.
  - cristiancavalli 2y ago
    You may want to try widening your social circles if this is a recurring theme in your life. Making friends as an adult is hard and making intimate connections sometimes even harder. The best thing I did for myself and my dating/personal life was get involved in charity work. You get to give back, meet people and improve your community. Who knows —- you might even fall in love with your community.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I am currently celebrating one year since my last layoff with no real job lead in site. Plenty of dead end interviews despite 8 years of experience. I have some part time freelance work but it is not sustainable. I literally lack the time and energy for free labor. I looked into it a bit last year and honestly, what I saw in the community was depressing. lots of healthcare for sick (often terminal) elders, homeless soup kitchens, and lots of work with kids (I hate kids). Maybe I'd help make the world a little better but I'd lose myself in the process. The previous comment wasn't a personal reflection, I know I'm not viable for modern dating and I'm not puting myself out in the market. I was simply pointing out a persistent societal statistic. It's not really one localized to any location, demographic, or time period. It's always been true.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Not necessarily a partner, parents are often where the extra income comes from. Though I suspect parents are more likely to support a grown daughter than a grown son.

red-iron-pine 2y ago

yup. currently paying those bills now, or rather, every month. don't love IT, but one of us needs to get enough cash to live.

sshine 2y ago

> swallowing the trash in a corporate job My wife is an artist with a marketing degree. I love programming. Swallowing trash at work just feels less painful to me.

throwawaysleep 2y ago
I doubt he disputes that men can love their work. It is just they have fewer options if they do not.
- superb_dev 2y ago
  What options are closed to men?
  - dudul 2y ago
    Looking pretty and finding a sugar-mommy?
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      It is an option; I remember an article on HEMA that mentioned a participant who was idle and supported by his wife. But it's a much more competitive option for men than it is for women. (That is, a man attempting to fill this role will face much tougher competition than a woman trying to do the same thing. It's not that the option is competitive with other options.)
      - mlrtime 2y ago
        These types of discussions where people are very careful to be politically correct seem to always break down. Of course you will find some outlier situation where one gender can do the same as another. This is not helpful and not the course of discussion. We're talking about what actually happens statistically, now and for generations. Men are not the same as Woman, they aren't now, never have been and never will be.
      - dudul 2y ago
        I think it's well understood yes. When an option is only available to 1% of the population I believe it is fair to say that it's not really an option.
  - dijit 2y ago
    I think men are looked down on if they go back to study, take an unpaid internship, become house-husbands (IE; non-breadwinners), exclusively attempt a creative endeavour (high risk enjoyable pursuits are seen as self-indulgent and lazy) or if they change career later in life (after 28~). If I think the same of women, I do not believe that we would typically look down on them or consider them bad people in the same way for being somehow deficient in capability (IE; "a loser") or shirking responsibility if they decided to do those things. In this sense, those opportunities can be considered effectively closed to them.
    - singleshot_ 2y ago
      I went back to study, took on an unpaid internship, and changed careers later in life. It was awesome and it seems to make a lot of people who stuck to their first career jealous. You may look down on men such as me, but most people appear not to do so. I admit I don't know too much about the house-husband or the creative endeavor.
      - dijit 2y ago
        I don't look down on you, I consider myself a bit more egalitarian in my principles than that. Is your notion then that you did not face social stigma? That would be an interesting counter-anecdote to what I said, may I ask where you live?
- benterix 2y ago
  I disagree. Granted, they are less likely to earn money on OnlyFans etc., but apart from that they can do the same things: they can be artists and do low paying jobs that they like. What I agree though is that if they do chose a low-paying job, it might be more difficult for them to find a partner, which is not necessarily true for women. We are still by and large living in cultures where the male has to bring home the bacon ("a real man knows how to take care of his family") and it will take decades for it to change, if ever.
  - Sammi 2y ago
    The phenomenon is cross cultural, meaning it's biological not cultural. Women tend to prefer men who can provide. Men tend to prefer women who are young fertile caregivers. Mythological stories across cultures reflect this general tendency. It's not something we made up recently or locally. It's a global timeless phenomenon.

fire_lake 2y ago

Sad but true. The publishing industry (think Penguin books) is full of independently wealthy white women - “This unpaid internship is a fantastic career opportunity!”

PartiallyTyped 2y ago
Edit: disregard the comment. Sadly enough, independently wealthy people are virtually the only ones who could actually publish consistently and thus possibly earn something out of the whole endeavour — under the assumption that any single book by an unknown / non-celebrity author has equal probability of being a hit. Reality seems to be that most books are failures, publishers prefer celebrities as that reduces marketing costs, and they prefer established audiences. This is a good read on the topic: https://www.elysian.press/p/no-one-buys-books https://www.elysian.press/p/no-one-buys-books
- delfinom 2y ago
  https://slate.com/culture/2024/04/book-sales-publishing-industry-statistics-substack-penguin-lawsuit.html https://slate.com/culture/2024/04/book-sales-publishing-indu... A rebuttal to that article.
  - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
    Very interesting, thank you for the new knowledge!
TMWNN 2y ago
Historically and today, a sought-after job for a young woman out of college who has majored in, say, English with wealthy parents is in publishing/media in NYC, with the parents paying the bills (publishing doesn't pay very much at the entry level). It's a genteel job that the parents can tell their friends about, and the daughter can meet suitable men; the classic marriage among these types has the husband working in finance and the wife in media.

colmvp 2y ago

Or possibly financial assistance from the Bank of Mom and Dad.

apantel 2y ago
Aka non-state welfare.

giantg2 2y ago

This is my experience as well.

exitb 2y ago

How often do you actually see people go „oh we have enough, we’re going to take lower paying jobs”? People work these jobs regardless of their partner's income.

sojournerc 2y ago
I recently switched from a 15 year programming career to becoming an apprentice woodworker at an architectural millwork shop, and I could do it because I have a partner with income that can support us both. Might not be often, but it certainly happens
__s 2y ago
My father took a 1 dollar pay cut from 16 CAD/hour to 15 CAD/hour. Working in furniture repair he wanted to transfer from house calls (driving everyday) to in-shop repairs My mother's a secretary (they call them administrative assistants now to be correct). She could advance her career by becoming a clerk, which mostly does more of the same, only more. Instead she's happy where she's at I used to work for Microsoft. I left for a startup (peerdb) & while my pay didn't go down, that meant leaving behind >50k USD in unvested stocks & my salary growth at Microsoft was pretty fast (hired as junior in 2019, was one promo away from principal when I left in 2023) which I don't expect a startup environment to match
- vsnf 2y ago
  > Junior in 2019, was one promo away from principal when I left in 2023 I'm broadly unfamiliar with Microsoft's promotion culture, but this strikes me as incredible. But in the "something seems incorrect" sense of the word. Were you hired at an incorrectly low level, were you a one-in-a-million talent, or is there huge title inflation at Microsoft now?
  - __s 2y ago
    Incorrectly low level (tho I'd like to think I'm uniquely talented too) Had ~10 years of experience working at small companies (pointerware, mldsolutions) after dropping out of college (had internship with pointeware where I correctly guessed they'd hire me if I dropped out). Interviewed at Citus a week before they announced being acquired, got shooed in. Junior pay at MS was still 2x salary increase

throwawaysleep 2y ago

I can’t say I have heard of or know of a man who has done a “quality of life” career without either inheriting or getting rich first.

coldtea 2y ago
Widen your social circle
- jollofricepeas 2y ago
  Underrated comment and great advice. If all your friends and acquaintances look like you and don’t have differing perspectives, then you should totally widen your social circle. Speak less, learn more. Ask questions. Break out of the loop. Say no to the algorithm.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >Underrated comment and great advice. useless swipe and naive advice, especially in this day and age. I can barely make friends who share my hobbies, what hope do I have in breaking the ice with someone completely different? I'm not going to specifically crash other meetups just to "expand my horizons". >Speak less, learn more. yes, that's why inroverts dont make as many friends, and are instead arguing with each other on Hacker News.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    To be a little more helpful, I'll add that people DO take “quality of life” careers "without either inheriting or getting rich first". Just ask your average gigging musician, writer, designer, and so on. People who run "lifestyle" business and refuse to grow them outside a living income. People who opted out of the rat race, from the start, or mid-career, and downsized, without being rich, to have more time with family, reduce stress, etc.
giantg2 2y ago
I know of one or two supported by a high earning wife. But it seems rare.

marcianx 2y ago

Reminds me of Max Shulman's advice to aspiring authors: "Marry money"

afavour 2y ago

[]

imtringued 2y ago
Men aren't supposed to make more money and the wage gap is in favour of women when you look at recent male vs female graduation rates simply because there are more educated women.
- Spivak 2y ago
  > wage gap is in favour of women Hahahahaha… no. You can argue that the wage gap is an imperfect metric and that it can't take into account certain advantages but it has not ever been in favor of women. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pay-gap-facts/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pa...
  - cristiancavalli 2y ago
    Not sure why your valid point is being downvoted. You also brought a source which most people don’t bother. Kudos!
  - tim333 2y ago
    I saw stats in the UK that for women who had not had kids yet the average pay was slightly higher in the same job than for blokes. Kids are the main thing that makes the difference.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      You're talking about the adjusted wage gap, not the wage gap. The adjusted wage gap measures sexism on an individual basis — all else being equal. The wage gap measures sexism on a societal basis, this is where the "explained" parts fall away. If 10% of the gap is explained by women having lower paying roles then that's good. Women aren't getting paid (that much) less for the same work. But it doesn't fix the issue of women systematically working lower paying roles or roles typically held by women being seen as less valuable. The straight wage gap has never been in favor of women. "Men and women make the same when you control for the variables that cause them to make less" isn't as applicable when you're talking about group dynamics.

timmg 2y ago

Interestingly, for my older sister, the answer is yes. For my younger sister, it is no. I agree with the point, though. It's more socially acceptable for a women to choose a lower paying job that she prefers.

boppo1 2y ago
Yeah, I'm a man working a low paying job that I enjoy. Almost everyone I know seems to look down on me for it. 'When will you get a real job', 'when will you start your career?'
- MaKey 2y ago
  Sorry to hear that. Does it affect your dating life too?
  - boppo1 2y ago
    What dating life? I was at a grocery store today and wound up flirting with a cutie, but I don't make enough money to pay for myself to go out for dinner more than once a month. The expenses a typical woman expects (from my experience) are beyond what I can afford.
    - achenet 2y ago
      go for hippie chicks who like doing acroyoga in the park, they're cheap dates :)
- cristiancavalli 2y ago
  Good for you! You should do what makes you happy and revel in the knowledge that you provide many different kinds of value and you yourself extract value from something you like doing in multiple ways. The way I think about it: no one else has to be me and work my job. Since im going to so the work then I will choose how and what I do so long as I can. It took time for me to build the emotional strength to do what I love and not care about what others think but working on that intentionally has brought so many unforeseen, manifold benefits that I wouldn’t change that path for any other opportunity.

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- 000ooo000 2y ago
  What are you on about? People demand data and statistics in order to verify claims. >a lot of x often involves y is a broad claim which warrants more than a few anecdotes. GP may have an unpleasant tone but they're not wrong for asking that a sweeping generalisation come with something more solid than 1 person's perspective.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    >People demand data and statistics in order to verify claims. I don't like the "educate yourself" dismissal for answers like these, but the divides in income and gender isn't exactly a niche topic. If you can believe that women often won't date men who make less and that women more often become stay at home parents than men, you can derive why woman may be more likely to pursue passions that pay a pittance compared to men in a relationship. If any of those 2 points feel contentious, all I'll say is Google it. I'm not interested in digging up such common facts for someone else.

cableshaft 2y ago

Yep, at least in my case. My wife is able to pursue her fiction writing career full-time right now because I'm still working a corporate job. Just before deciding she was too burnt out and had to quit she was working a 130k/year proposal management job and self-publishing a book a year on the side. Right now she's making a little over 1k/month with her fiction writing (and just recently started offering editing services on the side, which she's gotten a few customers already), so it's definitely been shock to our finances ($140k -> ~$12k), and our emergency savings have been steadily draining every month, although we have been able to tighten the belt on several things so it hasn't been as steep as it would if we had maintained the same lifestyle. But she's a lot happier, and she's very talented, and she's had multiple millions of page reads on Kindle unlimited already and her books are highly rated, so hopefully this takes off (there are writers in her genre making hundreds of thousands, including a couple writers she's friends with, maybe she'll become one herself, although I'd be happy if she can get it to the point where it's like $60k/year). I also wouldn't mind a break from my own corporate job so I can hopefully work on my own creative works fulltime as well (I code video games and design board games in my spare time), but obviously we can't both afford to do this at the same time, we'd be homeless pretty quick. But yeah, in the meantime, I'm 'swallowing the trash' in a corporate job.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> hopefully this takes off (there are writers in her genre making hundreds of thousands, including a couple writers she's friends with, maybe she'll become one herself, although I'd be happy if she can get it to the point where it's like $60k/year) That might be more difficult than becoming a runaway success. I don't think the distribution of author earnings peaks in the middle.
- cableshaft 2y ago
  I can see that. A lot of things tend to be bimodal in their distribution. Let's hope she becomes a runaway success then :). And if not, it's not like she lost her ability to do proposal management. If it gets to that point, I'm sure she could find a well-paying job again if need be. She's got a lot more practice with those interviews than I do, in fact, since she would interview when recruiters contacted her with a potentially better-paying job even if she wasn't really looking at the moment, whereas I tend to ignore recruiters when I'm not actively looking (or at least debating if I should start looking).

uptime 2y ago

Wow this tuned into a different narrative quickly. The above comment did not blame women for men’s plight but did not compare apples to apples. Gender pay gaps usually involve different wages for same work, not downgrades that all genders do. The “great” thing about cutthroat paring down by groups like private capital in management is all genders get downgraded at the same rate. So equity will even out in the race to the bottom, and we can enjoy more balanced stories of men contributing less to the household income.

dijit 2y ago
> Gender pay gaps usually involve different wages for same work That's not true, the oft-touted statistics are "77cents on the dollar", which is taking median women's earnings when employed with median men's earnings when employed, without regard to hours worked or responsibility[0]. In fact when accounting for hours worked, years of experience, responsibility and before maternity age women typically out-earn men[1][2], though mostly in large urban environments. I don't think anyone is blaming women here, but I think we should speak with factual information, lest we continue to propagate myths or erroneous talking points. Please keep in mind that women seem to be disproportionately disadvantaged after having children, which is what the study from pew research concludes after noting the early advantage for women. [0]: https://now.org/resource/the-gender-pay-gap-myth-vs-fact/ https://now.org/resource/the-gender-pay-gap-myth-vs-fact/ -- "By comparing differences in annual earnings between men and women, we find that there is about a 23 cent difference per dollar according to the Census Bureau." [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-e... [2]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/young-women-earnings-gender-quality-b2046389.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/young-wome...
- apantel 2y ago
  > Please keep in mind that women seem to be disproportionately disadvantaged after having children That’s because children are a full time job — the hours, the energy required, but especially the cognitive load. If the woman takes on some or most of that responsibility, then any other job she has becomes a second job.

lemper 2y ago

bro your comment hits a bit too close to home. my partner took her master's degree yet she couldn't find a matching job in our area. at the very least, she now has better grasp on some things that actually matter to our life and her input is really valuable for me. so all in all, it's fine I guess.

klyrs 2y ago

Well, my brother is a musician and rents a room in a large house. He doesn't have a sugar mama/papa, music pays the the bills because he's actually frugal. For decades my dad implored him to "get a job" but in his mid-40s he's still is still happy with his life. Some other working musicians have partners with a higher income, but many don't; it's more common for them to be happily single or coupled with other musicians. If you don't like swallowing corporate trash, don't. If you want to bring somebody along on your quest for enrichment, recognize that your choice there is yours.

Taurenking 2y ago
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barbariangrunge 2y ago

To chime in, I see a lot of women supporting their men as well, probably more often tbh. But yeah, one stressed out breadwinner, one struggling x isn’t that uncommon. For some reason I’ve seen a lot of breadwinners go into the trades rather than corporate

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solumunus 2y ago

This point would have been better made without involving gender. Who cares if it’s more often than not the man? That’s completely irrelevant. Unless your point really was about the gender, in which case you should elaborate.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
>Who cares if it’s more often than not the man? women, to put it crudely. >in which case you should elaborate. what's to elaborate on? Women are much less likely to "date down" econmically than men. Hence, women are less often the "breadwinners" and as such may be more likely to either spend their time as a full time parent or chasing jobs for passions over compensation. These aren't novel phenomenon.
- cristiancavalli 2y ago
  You may want to try widening your social circles if this is a recurring theme in your life. Making friends as an adult is hard and making intimate connections sometimes even harder. The best thing I did for myself and my dating/personal life was get involved in charity work. You get to give back, meet people and improve your community. Who knows —- you might even fall in love with your community.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I am currently celebrating one year since my last layoff with no real job lead in site. Plenty of dead end interviews despite 8 years of experience. I have some part time freelance work but it is not sustainable. I literally lack the time and energy for free labor. I looked into it a bit last year and honestly, what I saw in the community was depressing. lots of healthcare for sick (often terminal) elders, homeless soup kitchens, and lots of work with kids (I hate kids). Maybe I'd help make the world a little better but I'd lose myself in the process. The previous comment wasn't a personal reflection, I know I'm not viable for modern dating and I'm not puting myself out in the market. I was simply pointing out a persistent societal statistic. It's not really one localized to any location, demographic, or time period. It's always been true.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago

Not necessarily a partner, parents are often where the extra income comes from. Though I suspect parents are more likely to support a grown daughter than a grown son.