5 ms·

> Frozen food and canned goods probably never expire. They do, just much slower.

beerandt 2y ago
We hit a peak of canned food durability probably 20-40 years ago. Where we figured out manufacturing well enough, but hadn't gone fully synthetic with liners, overly minimized wall thickness, etc. Probably packaging contamination issues as well. I've had more (young) cans rupture in the last decade than any time before, even as they're stored next to much older ones. We're doing the same thing right now with plastic - drink bottles now weak thin and brittle vs the relatively strong/ ductile stuff of 10-15yrs ago.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Sounds like manufacturing is getting better at reducing waste, since they’re able to use less material per can. Yes, you should recycle, but we all know that not everyone does.
  - beerandt 2y ago
    If the product is ruined, the entire package and contents become waste. Metal is at least mostly recoverable energy. The footprint of the contents lost is not. And ironically the lighter plastic packaging makes it more likely to be trashed and not reused, or even attempted to be recycled. (Reuse is 1-2 magnitudes more efficient than recycling.)
    - SJC_Hacker 2y ago
      >Metal is at least mostly recoverable energy. The footprint of the contents lost is not. It should be, but how much of that is actually recycled vs. how much ends up in a landfill.
      - beerandt 2y ago
        Doesn't matter. Marginal savings is meaningless if the resulting product is worthless. On top of that- 99% of people who find a ruptured can with black ooze are trashing it. And the other 1% are spending more energy/resources to clean a contaminated container than the recycling will save. (Washing things is surprisingly expensive in terms of energy/resources. Often worth it for reuse, but not recycling.) Now you're essentially comparing mpg on a trip to no where.
        kragen 2y ago
        on the contrary, if you can reduce the environmental cost per can by 30%, but the result is that 20% of the cans rupture and go to waste, you have still reduced the total environmental cost you are likely to go bankrupy tho
    - SkyPuncher 2y ago
      Sure, but what percent of product are you actually loosing? It’s not a lot.
      - beerandt 2y ago
        It varies. The manufacture has an interest in delivering it undamaged, but less in storage or handling or longevity. They used to overshoot to ensure hitting the goal they car about. It's probably efficient for them. They draw the system boundary after delivery. Because that doesn't necessarily make the full Life Cycle of the container and contents efficient as its actually used. It's similar to 'water saving' toilets. The manufacture sells a product with gal/flush, not gal/use. Real world use differs from nominal, and interests aren't always aligned, especially if regulatory bodies are involved. But the point is- the number is different depending on if you're the manufacturer, retailer, consumer, or recycling/ waste agency. Maximizing one parties efficiency doesn't mean an increase in net efficiency as viewed by others.
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  Wine bottles are continuing to go down in size too. The glass is still roughly half of the carbon footprint. Weights range wildly (and glass is largely unnecessary). https://www.joannasimon.com/post/lightly-does-it-reducing-bottle-weight-and-alternative-formats https://www.joannasimon.com/post/lightly-does-it-reducing-bo...
  - beerandt 2y ago
    I think ultimately we'll realize overengineered glass (even if it's single use or crushed/repurposed or landfilled or recycled) is the best all around solution, especially taking into account health and future abundant (fusion-similar) energy. But also from big picture pollution/environmental and even carbon perspectives.
psunavy03 2y ago
I'm surprised in retrospect it took me so long to get a vacuum sealer, and why they aren't ubiquitous. I'm trying to really force myself to use it so I don't just chuck meat in a Ziploc bag, throw it in the freezer, and then months later throw it out because it's freezer burned.
- rolph 2y ago
  you may want to consider, smoking and drying/dehydrating. then use your vacuum sealer. custom, roll yer own, jacklinks rule, esp. caribou
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Butcher paper or freezer-quality Ziplocs make a huge difference. When I used to buy a quarter beef, there would be over 100 lbs. of beef in my deep freeze at any given moment, mostly wrapped in thick butcher paper. Ground beef was in plastic sleeves. It would be in there for over a year at times, and I never noticed even the slightest burn
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    A lot of freezer burn comes from the auto defrost common on kitchen refrigerators. When the temperature regularly cycles above freezing, the packaging has a nearly impossible job.
- nick__m 2y ago
  I find that zip lock bag, a bucket of water, a straw and the archimedes principle is sufficient to prevent freeze burn.
RetroTechie 2y ago
Frozen food: slowly. Canned food (if still hermetically sealed): never. The "going bad" concerns quality/taste, not safety. I've had a few occasions where someone cleared out cabinets in their kitchen, and gave contents away. General findings: Dry stuff (pasta, cookies, rice, beans, spices, etc): fine for years (if not a decade+) past its best-before date. Canned food: if hermetic seal is intact, it's edible. Personal record: ~25y old fruit cocktail. Physical structure was poor and taste was bland, but it was edible. For fresh foods like meat, dairy, vegetables etc: look, feel & sniff. It's almost always obvious when it's gone bad.
- selectodude 2y ago
  Spices aren’t going to make you sick but they don’t actually taste like anything after a couple months.
  - mrec 2y ago
    My black pepper is BBE Jan 2006 but still tastes peppery.
    - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
      Dried spices vary by volatility and oxidizability. I tried some 10 year old saffron kept in a corked vial, and it really didn't do much. I basically had to use the whole thing to get any yellow out of it, probably $20 worth.
    - Vegemeister 2y ago
      Probably doesn't smell peppery, though, especially if it's pre-ground.
- Merad 2y ago
  > Canned food: if hermetic seal is intact, it's edible. Definitely not a universal truth. Canned food can develop botulism, you do not want to mess with it. Any cans that are bulged or show signs of swelling should be discarded - don't even risk opening them. There are guys on YouTube who explore old army rations (which were basically all canned food prior to the 1980s), and when they decide to open a bulged can "for science" they will often literally break out a gas mask. That said, it's also not terribly uncommon for them to find rations dating back to WW2 and older that are still partially edible.
jowea 2y ago
Not that it really proves anything but here a video of a niche youtuber eating Boer War surplus canned food https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoHuMwZwTke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoHuMwZwTke
euroderf 2y ago
Twinkies and Spam: the forever foods ?
- rs999gti 2y ago
  Nope still rots, the preservatives just make it happen slowly.

We hit a peak of canned food durability probably 20-40 years ago. Where we figured out manufacturing well enough, but hadn't gone fully synthetic with liners, overly minimized wall thickness, etc. Probably packaging contamination issues as well. I've had more (young) cans rupture in the last decade than any time before, even as they're stored next to much older ones. We're doing the same thing right now with plastic - drink bottles now weak thin and brittle vs the relatively strong/ ductile stuff of 10-15yrs ago.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
Sounds like manufacturing is getting better at reducing waste, since they’re able to use less material per can. Yes, you should recycle, but we all know that not everyone does.
- beerandt 2y ago
  If the product is ruined, the entire package and contents become waste. Metal is at least mostly recoverable energy. The footprint of the contents lost is not. And ironically the lighter plastic packaging makes it more likely to be trashed and not reused, or even attempted to be recycled. (Reuse is 1-2 magnitudes more efficient than recycling.)
  - SJC_Hacker 2y ago
    >Metal is at least mostly recoverable energy. The footprint of the contents lost is not. It should be, but how much of that is actually recycled vs. how much ends up in a landfill.
    - beerandt 2y ago
      Doesn't matter. Marginal savings is meaningless if the resulting product is worthless. On top of that- 99% of people who find a ruptured can with black ooze are trashing it. And the other 1% are spending more energy/resources to clean a contaminated container than the recycling will save. (Washing things is surprisingly expensive in terms of energy/resources. Often worth it for reuse, but not recycling.) Now you're essentially comparing mpg on a trip to no where.
      - kragen 2y ago
        on the contrary, if you can reduce the environmental cost per can by 30%, but the result is that 20% of the cans rupture and go to waste, you have still reduced the total environmental cost you are likely to go bankrupy tho
  - SkyPuncher 2y ago
    Sure, but what percent of product are you actually loosing? It’s not a lot.
    - beerandt 2y ago
      It varies. The manufacture has an interest in delivering it undamaged, but less in storage or handling or longevity. They used to overshoot to ensure hitting the goal they car about. It's probably efficient for them. They draw the system boundary after delivery. Because that doesn't necessarily make the full Life Cycle of the container and contents efficient as its actually used. It's similar to 'water saving' toilets. The manufacture sells a product with gal/flush, not gal/use. Real world use differs from nominal, and interests aren't always aligned, especially if regulatory bodies are involved. But the point is- the number is different depending on if you're the manufacturer, retailer, consumer, or recycling/ waste agency. Maximizing one parties efficiency doesn't mean an increase in net efficiency as viewed by others.
Scoundreller 2y ago
Wine bottles are continuing to go down in size too. The glass is still roughly half of the carbon footprint. Weights range wildly (and glass is largely unnecessary). https://www.joannasimon.com/post/lightly-does-it-reducing-bottle-weight-and-alternative-formats https://www.joannasimon.com/post/lightly-does-it-reducing-bo...
- beerandt 2y ago
  I think ultimately we'll realize overengineered glass (even if it's single use or crushed/repurposed or landfilled or recycled) is the best all around solution, especially taking into account health and future abundant (fusion-similar) energy. But also from big picture pollution/environmental and even carbon perspectives.

psunavy03 2y ago

I'm surprised in retrospect it took me so long to get a vacuum sealer, and why they aren't ubiquitous. I'm trying to really force myself to use it so I don't just chuck meat in a Ziploc bag, throw it in the freezer, and then months later throw it out because it's freezer burned.

rolph 2y ago
you may want to consider, smoking and drying/dehydrating. then use your vacuum sealer. custom, roll yer own, jacklinks rule, esp. caribou
HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
Butcher paper or freezer-quality Ziplocs make a huge difference. When I used to buy a quarter beef, there would be over 100 lbs. of beef in my deep freeze at any given moment, mostly wrapped in thick butcher paper. Ground beef was in plastic sleeves. It would be in there for over a year at times, and I never noticed even the slightest burn
- maxerickson 2y ago
  A lot of freezer burn comes from the auto defrost common on kitchen refrigerators. When the temperature regularly cycles above freezing, the packaging has a nearly impossible job.
nick__m 2y ago
I find that zip lock bag, a bucket of water, a straw and the archimedes principle is sufficient to prevent freeze burn.

RetroTechie 2y ago

Frozen food: slowly. Canned food (if still hermetically sealed): never. The "going bad" concerns quality/taste, not safety. I've had a few occasions where someone cleared out cabinets in their kitchen, and gave contents away. General findings: Dry stuff (pasta, cookies, rice, beans, spices, etc): fine for years (if not a decade+) past its best-before date. Canned food: if hermetic seal is intact, it's edible. Personal record: ~25y old fruit cocktail. Physical structure was poor and taste was bland, but it was edible. For fresh foods like meat, dairy, vegetables etc: look, feel & sniff. It's almost always obvious when it's gone bad.

selectodude 2y ago
Spices aren’t going to make you sick but they don’t actually taste like anything after a couple months.
- mrec 2y ago
  My black pepper is BBE Jan 2006 but still tastes peppery.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    Dried spices vary by volatility and oxidizability. I tried some 10 year old saffron kept in a corked vial, and it really didn't do much. I basically had to use the whole thing to get any yellow out of it, probably $20 worth.
  - Vegemeister 2y ago
    Probably doesn't smell peppery, though, especially if it's pre-ground.
Merad 2y ago
> Canned food: if hermetic seal is intact, it's edible. Definitely not a universal truth. Canned food can develop botulism, you do not want to mess with it. Any cans that are bulged or show signs of swelling should be discarded - don't even risk opening them. There are guys on YouTube who explore old army rations (which were basically all canned food prior to the 1980s), and when they decide to open a bulged can "for science" they will often literally break out a gas mask. That said, it's also not terribly uncommon for them to find rations dating back to WW2 and older that are still partially edible.

jowea 2y ago

Not that it really proves anything but here a video of a niche youtuber eating Boer War surplus canned food https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoHuMwZwTke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZoHuMwZwTke

euroderf 2y ago

Twinkies and Spam: the forever foods ?

rs999gti 2y ago
Nope still rots, the preservatives just make it happen slowly.