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Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger
- matt_daemon 2y agoFor anyone interested in the numbers behind how bad beef and deforestation are for the environment, see Hannah Ritchie’s great new book Not the End of the World.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoBeef in itself is not bad for the environment. It's the scale of demand that is bad. And that demand is fueled by the combined effects of global population growth and global increase in standards of living. We tend to stop at the symptoms instead of going after the root cause.
- defiamazing 2y agoAgreed. Check out /r/keto and /r/zerocarb for some great research about the natural human diet. Humans have eaten beef (exclusively even) for billions of years.
- crawfishphase 2y ago[flagged]
- chickenchase-rd 2y agoBrazilians of years, not billions
- jdietrich 2y agoHumans have only existed for about 300,000 years. Cows are about 10,000 years old.
- Qem 2y ago> Beef in itself is not bad for the environment. It's the scale of demand that is bad. Wasting crops feeding cattle is inherently worse than the alternative, feeding directly on the crops and avoiding the wasting of calories when going up one trophic level.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoThat's an uneeded "optimisation". There is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. Again, the issue is that the environment has a limited, finite capacity, which we exceed when we are 10 billion with good standards of living. To reduce quality of life (because it's not limited to meat, it's comprehensive restrictions) simply to accomodate ever more humans on the planet is madness and unsustainable, anyway. PS: Let's also remember, for example, that 50-60 million bisons roamed North America before European settlement, whereas there are about 28 million beef cows in the US today (according to Google).
- repelsteeltje 2y agoAnother way to cast the meat vs crops debate is "true pricing": the growing demand for meat is not simply a result of growing population or growing standards of living, but caused by ignoring "externalities". I.e.: if the true impact of turning crops into meat were reflected in the price of a hamburger, demand elasticity would eventually result in much less production. Or: growing meat consumption is mostly a result of implicit subsidies to maintain status quo, ignore climate change,etc.
- emptysongglass 2y ago> There is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. You're not doing a whole lot to explain why there is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. I can think of a whole host of reasons why it is wrong in matters of ethics and mercy. Who is there to advocate for the cow? We know cows feel a gamut of emotions just as we do. They are not insensate. Most humans, when given a knife or a captive bolt gun and told to go kill that cow on yonder would not. So we externalize the death-making to slaughterhouse workers who coincidentally also suffer: > ...SHWs had significantly higher levels of depression compared with office workers, but not butchers. The difference in depression rates differed from study to study, ranging from 10% to 50% [1] There's really no good, ethical argument to be made for the killing of animals for food or pleasure. Did we need to do it once to survive as a species? Yes. Are we largely living in a post-scarcity world where those practices should now be challenged? Yes. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10009492/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10009492/
- DasIch 2y agoBeef is extremely inefficient compared to plant-based food. We could sustain a far larger population with no loss in standards of living without it.
- wk_end 2y agoMost people would argue that not eating beef would lower their standard of living.
- _3u10 2y ago[flagged]
- rangestransform 2y ago[flagged]
- pickleberto 2y ago[dead]
- colordrops 2y agoThat's like saying "oil is not bad for the environment, it's the scale of the demand that is bad".
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- willcipriano 2y ago> deforestation https://science.nasa.gov/earth/climate-change/co2-is-making-earth-greenerfor-now/ https://science.nasa.gov/earth/climate-change/co2-is-making-... https://terra.nasa.gov/news/modis-shows-earth-is-greener https://terra.nasa.gov/news/modis-shows-earth-is-greener
- Qem 2y agoGreening != Recovery > China’s outsized contribution to the global greening trend comes in large part (42%) from programs to conserve and expand forests. These were developed in an effort to reduce the effects of soil erosion, air pollution and climate change. Another 32% there – and 82% of the greening seen in India – comes from intensive cultivation of food crops. If the green of pristine forests is replaced by the green desert of a monocultural eucalyptus planted forest, or the green of grass pastures, it's still a big ecological net loss.
- willcipriano 2y agoRead the first one. The second has a lot of spin that is obvious once you have the context from the first article. The entire planet is greener. Everywhere. The planting did little. > Results showed that carbon dioxide fertilization explains 70 percent of the greening effect One of those Inconvenient Truths.
- _3u10 2y agoExactly, the US and Europe are free to reforest but choose not to for some unexplained reason. Brazilian beef is frankly way less deforested than anything from the U.S. or Europe. The three most forested countries in the world are Russia, Canada and Brazil in that order. In all honesty I’m perfectly fine with the bans / boycotts it keeps farmers here poor and beef cheap.
- willcipriano 2y agoNorth America (and the US) is greener than 20 years ago. Europe is greener than 20 years ago. Asia is greener than 20 years ago. Africa is greener than 20 years ago. The entire planet is greener than 20 years ago. It has nothing to do with people planting trees and everything to do with Co2 being what plants eat.
- debacle 2y agoAs a counter point, livestock are a critical part of the regenerative ag movement. Our property was farmland for 150 years before it basically ran out of nutrients in the 1970s. After one year of a pretty good harvest (not great) in 2019, we couldn't grow anything. One home testing kit later, and we found that there were virtually no minerals in the soil. Fast forward five years and between heavy composting and generating a very healthy amount of bird waste, we're just starting to restore the nutrient balance in the soil. The next step (in progress) is planting some native grasses and low lying shrubs to try and break up the practically impenetrable clay pan that exists below the soil. Many people dislike meat eating, and I understand that, but developing a healthy relationship with the land practically requires some form of livestock. We are turning "dead" land into highly productive pasture literally in one growing cycle.
- guhidalg 2y agoWhere did the feed for the animals come from?
- debacle 2y agoKitchen scraps and forage mostly. We did add some feed during the winter because we miscalculated our needs. We aren't doing anything intensive, and we don't have chickens or pigs. I did the math, and it doesn't really seem like you can have chickens or pigs just range, you have to supplement their diet in some way. Geese on the other hand are like...the best animals for regenerative ag, maybe next to sheep. We will probably get chickens at some point (unless we miraculously can range enough ducks for eggs), but we will have to buy in their feed.
- shmageggy 2y agoThis is currently downvoted, but it's a valid question. The concept at play is "ghost acres". The idea being that you might have a wonderful regenerated plot of productive land, but if it requires a massive amount of land elsewhere to maintain, you might not have gained as much as you think.
- LinXitoW 2y ago
- nanna 2y agoA month or so ago a ship filled with 19,000 Brazilian cattle destined for the Middle East docked in Cape Town. The cows were living in such horrendous conditions that the stink of the ship took over the entire city. Living in pools of excrement, sick, lame, pregnant and even dead cows among them. The South African animal protection service had to put many down. It's easy, its right to blame the Bolsonaro regime for having ramped up cattle farming in the Amazon leading to situations like this. It's harder to think of them when we have beef on our plates. https://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/seven-hundred-tons-of-poop-a-day-the-ethics-of-livestock-carriers-b0fb9ba1-5af1-4204-95a7-293b903e73e2 https://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/seven-h...
- hpestyghr 2y agoIn this specific case, it's because Middle Eastern countries want live imports due to halal requirements. Live exports should be entirely banned.
- debacle 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mtnGoat 2y agoIt’s really profitable to. I know a Greek fella that transports goats in bulk and has said it’s very profitable due to not many ships fitted to do it well.
- nanna 2y agoDon't see why halal needs live imports. The main thing is theyre slaughtered in a halal way. Presumably it's just cheaper to ship them live (or just about) to the middle east and then slaughter them there than send halal qualified slaughters to Brazil and then ship over frozen meat. Also, don't think it's right to let Brazil off the hook here - it's their cattle ranching practices and export legislation.
- _3u10 2y ago[flagged]
- brabel 2y agoYeah, because crossing a border completely changes the flavour of the meat.
- _3u10 2y agoIt’s more the feed. If you’re getting factory farmed stuff yeah it’s all going to taste roughly the same. But the Amazon, Chaco, and Pampas are wildly different ecological regions. Will Argentine Chaco and Paraguayan Chaco taste roughly the same, yes. But the pampas, that is where real beef comes from.
- brabel 2y agoSure, but the Pampas are partly in Brazil as well... and there's probably a lot of beef from Argentina that is not from the Pampas region. I mean, you could just say "pampas beef" tastes better, that would make more sense.
- _3u10 2y agoYou’re an idiot. If you get Brazilian, Argentine or Paraguayan beef it’s not from the triple frontier where they border each other. Anywhere other than that area are vastly different ecologies. Especially the beef growing areas. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1073718/number-cattle-livestock-brazil-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1073718/number-cattle-li... Where as in Argentina over half the cows are from the pampas not 10% Go to a restaurant or grocery store and have a steak in each country, they are distinctly different.
- brabel 2y ago> You’re an idiot. How classy, I can clearly see I am dealing with a very refined person.
- block_dagger 2y ago[flagged]
- skirge 2y agoand Brasillians will have nothing to sell to us
- uneoneuno 2y agoWhat about the cool carnival hats??
- bilekas 2y agoBrazil is the largest soybean producer in the world.
- mtam 2y agoI believe you are misinformed. Brazil is the top exporter in the world of several agricultural products and metals. Beef is not even in the top 10 exports from Brazil to the US. https://tradingeconomics.com/brazil/exports/united-states https://tradingeconomics.com/brazil/exports/united-states
- 2y ago
- ljf 2y agoI grew up on a (very) small farm - so I knew where all the meat we ate (and eggs, apple, plums and jam) came from. One of the things I find most disconcerting as an adult is the disconnect with the food I eat. Even the local 'farmer butcher' - I don't actually know if the meat they sell me is what they say it is. I buy a lot of deer from a friend of a friend as it feels slightly more known to me - even if I have no idea about what the deer actually ate in it's life.
- chasd00 2y agoIsn’t selling venison against the law?
- snapcaster 2y agoYeah you're on a site called hackernews quit being a dork
- WarOnPrivacy 2y agoexcuse me. where else are we dorks supposed do go? i'm running out of forums where I can post with the replica of my childhood pc rig.
- scoot 2y agoWhich law, where? Please don't assume that everyone here lives in the same city/state/country/continent as you.
- willyt 2y agoDepends which jurisdiction. It’s legal in the UK if you have a license and I think it has to be professionally butchered and labelled at a registered slaughterhouse.
- ljf 2y agoI'm in the UK - but yes he's a registered 'pest controller' - he gets paid by local farmers to keep the invasive deer population low (muncjac and Chinese water deer), and is also licenced to sell the meat. You can get either a whole/half skinned and basically butchered deer from him, or any selected cuts, for £9 a kg - which pretty damn cheap really!
- andsmedeiros 2y ago[flagged]
- AlgorithmicTime 2y ago[dead]
- cogman10 2y ago> There is no ethical meat Depends on your definition of ethical. Assuming you define it in terms of a lack of cruelty to the animals and their handlers then such meat does exist. However, the vast majority of meat is not that. The issue is it's cheaper to produce meat unethically than it is to produce it ethically. Because of that, at every step in the production to mouth there's a strong incentive to go the cheap route rather than the ethical route.
- SkyBelow 2y ago>a lack of cruelty But doesn't this depend upon your definition of cruelty? I've seen vegans who define raising an animal for the purpose of eating it to be inherently cruel, even if it doesn't suffer any negative treatment until the day it is killed to be eaten. Even this is just going with common enough definitions found in modern society. If we expand our scope of what ethics and what views of cruelty are allowed, there is no end to what results we see.
- cogman10 2y agoTotally agree. And I don't fault people for taking such a position about livestock, it's not unreasonable. I don't land there myself but can see why others would. It really just comes down to definitions.
- jonahbenton 2y agoTell that to your genetic predecessors.
- 2y ago
- emsign 2y agoYou can trace back where an animal grew up and lived by analyzing its isotopes. There's a unique pattern for every place on Earth.
- swayvil 2y ago[flagged]
- jareklupinski 2y ago> You are locked in a cell with a kitten. You must punch the kitten in the face every day or else you will not be fed. in my head, i already died the moment i became locked in a cell everything I do after that just determines where i'm going next i guess dont hang around people who have the habit of keeping jail cells and kittens around?
- swayvil 2y agoYou people are failing to grasp my metaphor. Replace it with "the only way to feed my kids is by performing evil deeds, like trafficking in illicit beef". What do you do when you are stuck in a game like that? You aren't exactly evil, but what are you? What other games like this are there?
- jareklupinski 2y ago> when you are stuck in a game like that "we" people just aren't in the habit (or have overcome our desire) of getting stuck in evil games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-win_situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-win_situation > "the only winning move is not to play" as long as the sun isn't terribly angry at its energy being used to help my heart beat, there should be a path to converting its energy into what i need in 2024
- swayvil 2y agoYou pay taxes under pain of imprisonment. Your taxes fund maiming and killing innocent civilians. That's one of those evil games.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yareal 2y agoI've moved to a meat buying strategy of "only buy meat if you've met the farmer". I don't object to eating meat, but so much of the industrial meat production world is a nightmare. From disease risk, to abuse of animals, to slash and burn, to waste. By buying meat from a local farmer, you can eliminate a lot of that. You end up eating less meat, probably, but we buy a whole cow every few years and divvy it up between friends. You could do that more or less often if you still wanted to eat a lot of meat.
- luxuryballs 2y agoNow THIS is first world problems, having enough choices to be able to be picky.
- righthand 2y agoAs an American why would you buy Brazilian beef when it’s already available here probably for cheaper, local, and higher quality?
- mistrial9 2y agoask the chain burger fast-food companies.. they buy it
- righthand 2y agoWho buys the chain burgers fast-food companies burgers?
- freejazz 2y agoAmericans.
- righthand 2y agoGOTO 10
- hombre_fatal 2y agoActually, everyone. Even stereotypical food snobs like the French https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/19/the-french-have-fallen-in-love-with-american-fast-food-heres-why.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/19/the-french-have-fallen-in-lo... The world would be much better if fast food were a US-only phenomenon but that's trivially untrue.
- freejazz 2y agoI didn't mean for my response to be exhaustive so much as directly responsive to the question asked... why Americans eat the Brazilian beef?
- augusto-moura 2y agoI can see two reasons: maybe it is not cheaper, or maybe there's not enough for local consumers. There should definitely be some economic incentive somewhere. Higher quality is debatable, foreign imports are not necessarily "lower quality", I'm a Brazilian so I'm on the other side of the coin, our beef is anything but low quality. The problem that the article wants to expose is that much of it is raised on illegal ranches, more often than not on the deflorested Amazon. Being local is not something that food chains care about.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- fyt2024 2y agoGive Brazil time. Things will improve again. I hope the EU Mercosul FTA puts protections in place if it is ever signed. Brazil reached 92 percent renewable energy. So there are good news. https://www.gmexconsulting.com/cms/brazil-hits-92-renewable-energy-milestone/ https://www.gmexconsulting.com/cms/brazil-hits-92-renewable-...
- diegoholiveira 2y ago> Give Brazil time. Things will improve again. What mechanisms were put into action that indicate improvement? I'm Brazilian, living in Brazil and I don't share your optimism.