9 ms·

Telegram founder claims Signal has a US government backdoor

83 points by mappu 2y ago

Voultapher 2y ago
Funny, given I've heard from multiple infosec people, that they believe telegram is a honeypot.
- simfree 2y ago
  This is pretty rich coming from the founder of Telegram, which doesn't have any End to End encryption by default, nor are group chats encrypted in any way. Client devices have many routes of compromise available, it's very possible that the data exfilaration is occuring there rather than server side. You'd think the backers of Matrix (largely European Governments) or the privacy focused userbase of XMPP would go beyond forklifting in the same double rachet library that Signal and ilk use, but apparently they all think it's the best available option.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    On the Matrix side, we explicitly didn't forklift the same library - we wrote our own cleanroom implementation from scratch, first in C/C++ as https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm and then in rust as https://github.com/matrix-org/vodozemac https://github.com/matrix-org/vodozemac. They have no code at all in common with libsignal, and are Apache licensed rather than copyleft, and have been independently audited, independent of whatever Signal gets up to (https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrix-s-olm-end-to-end-encryption-security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at-last/ https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrix-s-olm-end-to-end-e... and https://matrix.org/blog/2022/05/16/independent-public-audit-of-vodozemac-a-native-rust-reference-implementation-of-matrix-end-to-end-encryption/ https://matrix.org/blog/2022/05/16/independent-public-audit-... respectively)
    - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
      off the topic but any updates on eu dma integration with messenger et al? also, an unanswered question remaining was that the integration with meta viz DMA would apply to element only or the matrix ecosystem in general like i would be able to use fluffychat or cinny for example
    - simfree 2y ago
      You have steadfastly spread the good word in spite of undue negativity directed towards the Matrix ecosystem. Thank you for your hard work on making Matrix better for everyone and explaining why in depth! You make the world a better place!
    - realityfactchex 2y ago
      Good to know, and keep it up!
  - pjfin123 2y ago
    To be fair trying to do encrypted group chats isn't at all straightforward.
vetrom 2y ago
You don't need government backdoors when os trust isnt user-trustable and you could chain whatever into a sesame backdoor: https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/626.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/626.pdf (for the tldr crowd; this explains a fairly glaring failure mode in signal's post-compromise security when any secondary devices are involved)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwaway74354 2y ago
Durov, bring back the wall!
thomas34298 2y ago
>Unlike Telegram, Signal doesn’t allow researchers to make sure that their GitHub code is the same code that is used in the Signal app run on users’ iPhones. I remember Telegram not publishing their Android source code for extended periods of time, which caused Telegram-FOSS to be significantly behind: https://github.com/Telegram-FOSS-Team/Telegram-FOSS/issues/128 https://github.com/Telegram-FOSS-Team/Telegram-FOSS/issues/1... I'm not up to date on the current state of affairs, but I hope this has improved since then.
anthk 2y ago
If you want security and a paranoid like setup just use Tox. If you want a no-brainer chat app with video support, there's GNU Jami. If you want resilence on natural disasters, keep Braid somewhere.
- thisislife2 2y ago
  Does GNU Jami work in the middle-east where most voip are banned, and only middle-eastern intelligence agency run apps like BotIM are allowed?
  - anthk 2y ago
    Tox might.
- anonbanker 2y ago
  Tox is not secure. Jason Donnenfeld (of Wireguard fame) filed a very alarming issue about how obviously bad the handshake was implemented[1], and lead developer Andre Almeida (iphydf/noavarice) continued to downplay the severity in public, while fashioning exploits based on it inside his "Club Cyberia" Tox group to weaponize said issue. Stay away from Tox. 1. https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426 https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426
Moldoteck 2y ago
Says the guy when his messenger is not e2ee by default(meaning the same as plain text), groups not encrypted e2e at all and uses some shady encryption mechanism
- WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
  that's why it is the prefered one, naked is privacy, but for you to understand, you need to not work for any of these agencies ;) there is a reason why the source of most content from the NATO/RUS war comes from telegram because being naked works better than "being anonymous and encrypted", protonmail users wants to interview you: "Encrypted services Apple, Proton and Wire helped Spanish police identify activist" - https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/08/encrypted-services-apple-proton-and-wire-helped-spanish-police-identify-activist/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/08/encrypted-services-apple-p...
- adboofer 2y ago
  because telegram has group chats and channels, which are also accessible cross platform, it doesn't make sense to turn on e2e by default. secret chat feature is encrypted and thus only available on the device you start it from.
  - jacooper 2y ago
    What does being multi platform have to do with E2E? Matrix does the same thing yet supports E2E, whatsapp allows multi platform access while also having full E2E support.
    - adboofer 2y ago
      In whatsapp, there is a primary source (your phone) and you can "link" other devices with the primary source. This is different from how telegram handles it. In telegram you can use sms login to use the client from multiple clients, within the same smartphone, or different devices. With whatsapp, you can only have one sms login device, which would be primary device. If you use sms login with another device, you wont be able to use the previous device. To overcome this, it has a feature which can allow you to link your primary client with other clients but it is janky and does not have all the features. For matrix on the other hand, the encryption keys are tied to the account.
thisislife2 2y ago
Want to bet that any messenger service that requires your phone number to register and id you on their network is compromised? For those interested, watch this interview of the Telegram founder by the US right- media as it offers an interesting insight about the politics and competition behind these messenger / social networks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ut6RouSs0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ut6RouSs0w ... (And this is, by the way, the original source of the story - https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher-problem https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher... - which also seems to be US right- media. Looks like a concerted Republican / Trump followers attempt to have their flock use Telegram now.)
- bionhoward 2y ago
  How?
ceeg 2y ago
[flagged]
- shove 2y ago
  Isn’t it fascinating how a post like this gets downvoted on HN? What a wild and unlikely coincidence!
  - richbell 2y ago
    I mean, it doesn't really contribute anything to the subject being discussed.
  - allarm 2y ago
    Probably the reason is this post was bullshit? I’ve been using Telegram since forever and haven’t found yet any neonazi content. I’ve not tried hard enough probably though.
WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
Anything that operates in the US, specially telecom, is subject to American law, therefore weak to US intelligence agencies, that's how it is, since 9/11
- geor9e 2y ago
  There's no US law requiring encryption weakening.
  - HumanProtractor 2y ago
    That typically comes in the form of a national security letter.
bvinayakh 2y ago
I never use Signal because the moment you provide your phone numnber, there is no more annonymity.
- moe_sc 2y ago
  To be fair, anonymity never was one of signals claims.
aquatica 2y ago
Says the guy who had a backdoor in their super-secure e2e secret chats https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/ https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/
- zaik 2y ago
  > super-secure e2e secret chats Which aren't enabled by default so almost nobody uses them. Telegram users are often surprised to find out their messages aren't end-to-end encrypted at all.
  - adboofer 2y ago
    Telegram can be used on multiple devices simultaneously. Syncing the private key for each chat across multiple devices can be an issue. That's why secret chats are only available on the device they were created on, and having encryption on by default would not make sense.
    - jacooper 2y ago
      Yet whatsapp and matrix seem to be able to do that just fine, impossible they said
      - adboofer 2y ago
        AFAIK, whatsapp is still dependent on your mobile being the primary source. It has "link a device" feature, which has some of the features but cannot be used as an independent client. For example if you're using the web version and want to see some old chats, you can't unless you use it from your mobile. WhatsApp's encryption keys are tied to the device, not the account. In Matrix, encryption keys are tied to the user's account, not the device, and thus it wont be an issue.
        jacooper 2y ago
        > AFAIK, whatsapp is still dependent on your mobile being the primary source. It has "link a device" feature, which has some of the features but cannot be used as an independent client. Not anymore https://blog.whatsapp.com/one-whatsapp-account-now-across-multiple-phone https://blog.whatsapp.com/one-whatsapp-account-now-across-mu...
binary132 2y ago
“Some people say” isn’t really good enough evidence to support this claim. It perhaps casts doubt but I wouldn’t consider it trustworthy either.
jacooper 2y ago
Apart from telegram not having any kind of actually used E2E Encryption, they store everything, which means the cost of running their service is crazy high compared to something like whatsapp which AFAIK only stores stuff up to 3 months when the device isn't online. So we have an app which has access to everything you send, and has incredibly high hosting costs with no real income, you put 1 and 1 together and you can see it for yourself. Ironically they claim cloud storage as the reason for not having E2E, yet matrix seems to be able to do just that.
not_me_ever 2y ago
The random number generator in signal is fully predictable. There is no need for a back door -- when the front door has no lock. :sigh:
- SahAssar 2y ago
  Do you have a source for that?
  - longitudinal93 2y ago
    Of course he doesn't have a source for that
- roastedpeacock 2y ago
  That is a pretty damming accusation. Can you provide more details? This should be the sort of thing you should be hearing from a disclosure or ideally a vendor advisory - not an HN comment thread on a vaguely related article. Failures of randomness are almost always fatal to a cryptosystem.
- churchill 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- geor9e 2y ago
  Source: made it up
  - not_me_ever 2y ago
    Source: Read and understood the original whitepaper. Plus verified it in the (probably fake) source code. You can do it too. Might take a decade or two depending on your mathematical background.
windrim 2y ago
FWIW the underlying article[1] is written by Chris Rufo, a prominent right-winger[2]: [1] https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher-problem https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher... [2] e.g. https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conse...
thebeardisred 2y ago
I know & trust the founders of signal personally. Every time I've used telegram it smacks of a data collection tool for an Eastern Bloc nation. I'll stick with what I know, thanks. Edit: Also the article linked is just a hit piece on the current signal leadership by a guy promoting a book about "the radical left". This is just reinforcing my tendency to say "fuck telegram".
- stufffer 2y ago
  Tucker Carlson interviewed the founder of Telegram, interesting interview. Telegram is based out of UAE to avoid jurisdiction of Russian and Western intelligence agencies. Tucker Carlson also revealed that he's had the contents of his private signal messages leaked to media (allegedly by US Intel agencies monitoring his communication).
  - VagabundoP 2y ago
    Very hard to trust Tucker, is there any way of verifying his bullshit?
    - BizarroLand 2y ago
      The guy is a shill to anyone that throws money his way. I need independent third party verification of anything he claims.

83 points by mappu 2y ago

Voultapher 2y ago

Funny, given I've heard from multiple infosec people, that they believe telegram is a honeypot.

simfree 2y ago
This is pretty rich coming from the founder of Telegram, which doesn't have any End to End encryption by default, nor are group chats encrypted in any way. Client devices have many routes of compromise available, it's very possible that the data exfilaration is occuring there rather than server side. You'd think the backers of Matrix (largely European Governments) or the privacy focused userbase of XMPP would go beyond forklifting in the same double rachet library that Signal and ilk use, but apparently they all think it's the best available option.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  On the Matrix side, we explicitly didn't forklift the same library - we wrote our own cleanroom implementation from scratch, first in C/C++ as https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm and then in rust as https://github.com/matrix-org/vodozemac https://github.com/matrix-org/vodozemac. They have no code at all in common with libsignal, and are Apache licensed rather than copyleft, and have been independently audited, independent of whatever Signal gets up to (https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrix-s-olm-end-to-end-encryption-security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at-last/ https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrix-s-olm-end-to-end-e... and https://matrix.org/blog/2022/05/16/independent-public-audit-of-vodozemac-a-native-rust-reference-implementation-of-matrix-end-to-end-encryption/ https://matrix.org/blog/2022/05/16/independent-public-audit-... respectively)
  - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
    off the topic but any updates on eu dma integration with messenger et al? also, an unanswered question remaining was that the integration with meta viz DMA would apply to element only or the matrix ecosystem in general like i would be able to use fluffychat or cinny for example
  - simfree 2y ago
    You have steadfastly spread the good word in spite of undue negativity directed towards the Matrix ecosystem. Thank you for your hard work on making Matrix better for everyone and explaining why in depth! You make the world a better place!
  - realityfactchex 2y ago
    Good to know, and keep it up!
- pjfin123 2y ago
  To be fair trying to do encrypted group chats isn't at all straightforward.

vetrom 2y ago

You don't need government backdoors when os trust isnt user-trustable and you could chain whatever into a sesame backdoor: https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/626.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/626.pdf (for the tldr crowd; this explains a fairly glaring failure mode in signal's post-compromise security when any secondary devices are involved)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throwaway74354 2y ago

Durov, bring back the wall!

thomas34298 2y ago

>Unlike Telegram, Signal doesn’t allow researchers to make sure that their GitHub code is the same code that is used in the Signal app run on users’ iPhones. I remember Telegram not publishing their Android source code for extended periods of time, which caused Telegram-FOSS to be significantly behind: https://github.com/Telegram-FOSS-Team/Telegram-FOSS/issues/128 https://github.com/Telegram-FOSS-Team/Telegram-FOSS/issues/1... I'm not up to date on the current state of affairs, but I hope this has improved since then.

anthk 2y ago

If you want security and a paranoid like setup just use Tox. If you want a no-brainer chat app with video support, there's GNU Jami. If you want resilence on natural disasters, keep Braid somewhere.

thisislife2 2y ago
Does GNU Jami work in the middle-east where most voip are banned, and only middle-eastern intelligence agency run apps like BotIM are allowed?
- anthk 2y ago
  Tox might.
anonbanker 2y ago
Tox is not secure. Jason Donnenfeld (of Wireguard fame) filed a very alarming issue about how obviously bad the handshake was implemented[1], and lead developer Andre Almeida (iphydf/noavarice) continued to downplay the severity in public, while fashioning exploits based on it inside his "Club Cyberia" Tox group to weaponize said issue. Stay away from Tox. 1. https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426 https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426

Moldoteck 2y ago

Says the guy when his messenger is not e2ee by default(meaning the same as plain text), groups not encrypted e2e at all and uses some shady encryption mechanism

WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
that's why it is the prefered one, naked is privacy, but for you to understand, you need to not work for any of these agencies ;) there is a reason why the source of most content from the NATO/RUS war comes from telegram because being naked works better than "being anonymous and encrypted", protonmail users wants to interview you: "Encrypted services Apple, Proton and Wire helped Spanish police identify activist" - https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/08/encrypted-services-apple-proton-and-wire-helped-spanish-police-identify-activist/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/08/encrypted-services-apple-p...
adboofer 2y ago
because telegram has group chats and channels, which are also accessible cross platform, it doesn't make sense to turn on e2e by default. secret chat feature is encrypted and thus only available on the device you start it from.
- jacooper 2y ago
  What does being multi platform have to do with E2E? Matrix does the same thing yet supports E2E, whatsapp allows multi platform access while also having full E2E support.
  - adboofer 2y ago
    In whatsapp, there is a primary source (your phone) and you can "link" other devices with the primary source. This is different from how telegram handles it. In telegram you can use sms login to use the client from multiple clients, within the same smartphone, or different devices. With whatsapp, you can only have one sms login device, which would be primary device. If you use sms login with another device, you wont be able to use the previous device. To overcome this, it has a feature which can allow you to link your primary client with other clients but it is janky and does not have all the features. For matrix on the other hand, the encryption keys are tied to the account.

thisislife2 2y ago

Want to bet that any messenger service that requires your phone number to register and id you on their network is compromised? For those interested, watch this interview of the Telegram founder by the US right- media as it offers an interesting insight about the politics and competition behind these messenger / social networks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ut6RouSs0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ut6RouSs0w ... (And this is, by the way, the original source of the story - https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher-problem https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher... - which also seems to be US right- media. Looks like a concerted Republican / Trump followers attempt to have their flock use Telegram now.)

bionhoward 2y ago
How?

ceeg 2y ago

[flagged]

shove 2y ago
Isn’t it fascinating how a post like this gets downvoted on HN? What a wild and unlikely coincidence!
- richbell 2y ago
  I mean, it doesn't really contribute anything to the subject being discussed.
- allarm 2y ago
  Probably the reason is this post was bullshit? I’ve been using Telegram since forever and haven’t found yet any neonazi content. I’ve not tried hard enough probably though.

WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago

Anything that operates in the US, specially telecom, is subject to American law, therefore weak to US intelligence agencies, that's how it is, since 9/11

geor9e 2y ago
There's no US law requiring encryption weakening.
- HumanProtractor 2y ago
  That typically comes in the form of a national security letter.

bvinayakh 2y ago

I never use Signal because the moment you provide your phone numnber, there is no more annonymity.

moe_sc 2y ago
To be fair, anonymity never was one of signals claims.

aquatica 2y ago

Says the guy who had a backdoor in their super-secure e2e secret chats https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/ https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/

zaik 2y ago
> super-secure e2e secret chats Which aren't enabled by default so almost nobody uses them. Telegram users are often surprised to find out their messages aren't end-to-end encrypted at all.
- adboofer 2y ago
  Telegram can be used on multiple devices simultaneously. Syncing the private key for each chat across multiple devices can be an issue. That's why secret chats are only available on the device they were created on, and having encryption on by default would not make sense.
  - jacooper 2y ago
    Yet whatsapp and matrix seem to be able to do that just fine, impossible they said
    - adboofer 2y ago
      AFAIK, whatsapp is still dependent on your mobile being the primary source. It has "link a device" feature, which has some of the features but cannot be used as an independent client. For example if you're using the web version and want to see some old chats, you can't unless you use it from your mobile. WhatsApp's encryption keys are tied to the device, not the account. In Matrix, encryption keys are tied to the user's account, not the device, and thus it wont be an issue.
      - jacooper 2y ago
        > AFAIK, whatsapp is still dependent on your mobile being the primary source. It has "link a device" feature, which has some of the features but cannot be used as an independent client. Not anymore https://blog.whatsapp.com/one-whatsapp-account-now-across-multiple-phone https://blog.whatsapp.com/one-whatsapp-account-now-across-mu...

binary132 2y ago

“Some people say” isn’t really good enough evidence to support this claim. It perhaps casts doubt but I wouldn’t consider it trustworthy either.

jacooper 2y ago

Apart from telegram not having any kind of actually used E2E Encryption, they store everything, which means the cost of running their service is crazy high compared to something like whatsapp which AFAIK only stores stuff up to 3 months when the device isn't online. So we have an app which has access to everything you send, and has incredibly high hosting costs with no real income, you put 1 and 1 together and you can see it for yourself. Ironically they claim cloud storage as the reason for not having E2E, yet matrix seems to be able to do just that.

not_me_ever 2y ago

The random number generator in signal is fully predictable. There is no need for a back door -- when the front door has no lock. :sigh:

SahAssar 2y ago
Do you have a source for that?
- longitudinal93 2y ago
  Of course he doesn't have a source for that
roastedpeacock 2y ago
That is a pretty damming accusation. Can you provide more details? This should be the sort of thing you should be hearing from a disclosure or ideally a vendor advisory - not an HN comment thread on a vaguely related article. Failures of randomness are almost always fatal to a cryptosystem.
churchill 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
geor9e 2y ago
Source: made it up
- not_me_ever 2y ago
  Source: Read and understood the original whitepaper. Plus verified it in the (probably fake) source code. You can do it too. Might take a decade or two depending on your mathematical background.

windrim 2y ago

FWIW the underlying article[1] is written by Chris Rufo, a prominent right-winger[2]: [1] https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher-problem https://www.city-journal.org/article/signals-katherine-maher... [2] e.g. https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conse...

thebeardisred 2y ago

I know & trust the founders of signal personally. Every time I've used telegram it smacks of a data collection tool for an Eastern Bloc nation. I'll stick with what I know, thanks. Edit: Also the article linked is just a hit piece on the current signal leadership by a guy promoting a book about "the radical left". This is just reinforcing my tendency to say "fuck telegram".

stufffer 2y ago
Tucker Carlson interviewed the founder of Telegram, interesting interview. Telegram is based out of UAE to avoid jurisdiction of Russian and Western intelligence agencies. Tucker Carlson also revealed that he's had the contents of his private signal messages leaked to media (allegedly by US Intel agencies monitoring his communication).
- VagabundoP 2y ago
  Very hard to trust Tucker, is there any way of verifying his bullshit?
  - BizarroLand 2y ago
    The guy is a shill to anyone that throws money his way. I need independent third party verification of anything he claims.