4 ms·

There is an obvious difference between lying and being wrong. Theranos claimed to already have created their magic machine, which was a blatant lie. They inten

There is an obvious difference between lying and being wrong. Theranos claimed to already have created their magic machine, which was a blatant lie. They intentionally misled investors by pretending to put samples into a fake testing machine, secretly removing the samples to test them in a lab elsewhere, then putting them back into the machine to make it look like the machine was doing the testing. That's careful, calculated fraud, which was obviously a criminal act. Musk, by contrast, never claimed to have something that he did not have. He made overly-optimistic claims about product development. There is no reason to assume that these projections were lies, given that everyone else in the space was making similarly aggressive projections. Musk was wrong for selling FSD-related features before they were ready, and Tesla should obviously make that right. But pretending that being wrong (in good company) is the same thing as calculated fraud is just goofy.

api 2y ago
That's the question: is there any calculated fraud here or was he just vastly overly optimistic? ... but even if there is no calculated fraud, I think some Tesla buyers are owed refunds or other compensation. If a company promises me X, I pay for it, and years later has not delivered X, eventually I need a refund.
- MBCook 2y ago
  I agree. After 7 years or whatever you can’t keep being “overly optimistic”. At some point it becomes clear it’s just not ready and you need to give people their money back and stop selling it until it is. If all FSD things were sold with a “really will be in 2 years or 80% of your money back” clause that would be different in my mind. But taking money and just never delivering is flat out fraud. No matter how many times you say “just one more year”.
jcranmer 2y ago
> Musk, by contrast, never claimed to have something that he did not have. IIRC, wasn't the video that claimed to demonstrate a full trip conducted by FSD actually like 100 different splices? That right there would be a claim of something that didn't exist.
uberdru 2y ago
It's about revenue recognition. TSLA has beaten estimates multiple times based on revenue recognized from FSD "Beta". There's your fraud.
malfist 2y ago
> Theranos claimed to already have created their magic machine, which was a blatant lie. And to this day, you can go on Tesla's website, configure a car, and be offered the option to purchase "Full Self Driving Capability" which does not offer a fully self driving vehicle.
windexh8er 2y ago
By this reasoning it would be OK for a car company to market a car with an automatic transmission, yet the clutch was still required to be used on gear changes at delivery. You paid a large premium for the automatic clutch as was marketed by the CEO of the company to be delivered "next year". This claim you bought into was now made over 8 years ago and what the CEO stated has still not been delivered. Your car now has over 120k miles on it with a feature that is only half delivered. You wouldn't consider this a fraudulent claim?
- Sparyjerry 2y ago
  This doesn't seem fraudulent, FSD was an additional optional feature you didn't have to buy not a required featured. Then when you bought it there was plenty of disclaimer about how there is no timeline for release. So your claiming that because the CEO said something at random speech - that was technically correct anyways, that apparently that overrides all of the disclaimers you have to sign when actually buying the car?
  - windexh8er 2y ago
    You also had the option to not buy automatic transmissions for a lot of time automobiles have been sold. The example is relevant. I think you're misunderstanding that Elon has not made this statement just once. He's literally said it every year multiple times per year and he still has not delivered. At this point it truly is fraudulent.

api 2y ago

That's the question: is there any calculated fraud here or was he just vastly overly optimistic? ... but even if there is no calculated fraud, I think some Tesla buyers are owed refunds or other compensation. If a company promises me X, I pay for it, and years later has not delivered X, eventually I need a refund.

MBCook 2y ago
I agree. After 7 years or whatever you can’t keep being “overly optimistic”. At some point it becomes clear it’s just not ready and you need to give people their money back and stop selling it until it is. If all FSD things were sold with a “really will be in 2 years or 80% of your money back” clause that would be different in my mind. But taking money and just never delivering is flat out fraud. No matter how many times you say “just one more year”.

jcranmer 2y ago

> Musk, by contrast, never claimed to have something that he did not have. IIRC, wasn't the video that claimed to demonstrate a full trip conducted by FSD actually like 100 different splices? That right there would be a claim of something that didn't exist.

uberdru 2y ago

It's about revenue recognition. TSLA has beaten estimates multiple times based on revenue recognized from FSD "Beta". There's your fraud.

malfist 2y ago

> Theranos claimed to already have created their magic machine, which was a blatant lie. And to this day, you can go on Tesla's website, configure a car, and be offered the option to purchase "Full Self Driving Capability" which does not offer a fully self driving vehicle.

windexh8er 2y ago

By this reasoning it would be OK for a car company to market a car with an automatic transmission, yet the clutch was still required to be used on gear changes at delivery. You paid a large premium for the automatic clutch as was marketed by the CEO of the company to be delivered "next year". This claim you bought into was now made over 8 years ago and what the CEO stated has still not been delivered. Your car now has over 120k miles on it with a feature that is only half delivered. You wouldn't consider this a fraudulent claim?

Sparyjerry 2y ago
This doesn't seem fraudulent, FSD was an additional optional feature you didn't have to buy not a required featured. Then when you bought it there was plenty of disclaimer about how there is no timeline for release. So your claiming that because the CEO said something at random speech - that was technically correct anyways, that apparently that overrides all of the disclaimers you have to sign when actually buying the car?
- windexh8er 2y ago
  You also had the option to not buy automatic transmissions for a lot of time automobiles have been sold. The example is relevant. I think you're misunderstanding that Elon has not made this statement just once. He's literally said it every year multiple times per year and he still has not delivered. At this point it truly is fraudulent.