5 ms·

Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-

by animex 2y ago

Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000 USD per vehicle. Let's say take the declining rate difference as indicative of the group that was misled. 35% of those taking FSD took the feature because of erroneous claims, generating about 2Bn in high-margin revenue collected pumping the stock and causing investors to pile on creating even more validation of this claim. Pumping the stock also created massive tranche payouts for Musk for hitting certain valuations that should only have been hit when the automaker was truly a runaway success. Musk is incentivized to use this reality-distortion field & cult-like persona to continue lying about Tesla's future for personal and corporate gain. [1] Edit: Founder -> CEO

_akhe 2y ago
I agree 100% he should be prosecuted at this point. He should have been the first time.
deegles 2y ago
This could have been avoided just by calling it "Partial Self Driving" and then everything would be above board.
- dawnerd 2y ago
  That’s only part of the problem. They’re specifically investigating claims Elon made himself where he said the car drove itself without human input. He’s repeatedly made claims like this.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  That’s what they call it in the aerospace industry /s
  - kube-system 2y ago
    "Self driving" means something. There are industry standards for that phraseology that pre-date Tesla's (mis)usage. "Autopilot" may have been colloquially misleading (because of the public's unfamiliarity with aviation), but I don't think that name was problematic. Autopilot in planes can historically look like a basic cruise control. However, some of the associated statements and demonstrations at that time were problematic. (e.g. "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.")
- tromp 2y ago
  Or "Fool's Self Driving" to preserve the pronunciation:-)
  - _akhe 2y ago
    Haha I like the Fool's Gold analogy because his family owned an Emerald company in Zambia: "During that time," said Errol, speaking to Elon's college years, "I managed to send money I made from emerald sales to him and [Elon's brother, Kimbal Musk] for living expenses."
- api 2y ago
  It's advanced cruise control, basically, and if advertised as such it'd be great.
  - Sparyjerry 2y ago
    That was auto-pilot. FSD literally does what it says, if the government didn't require you to be attentive you wouldn't have to be.
    - robertjpayne 2y ago
      If you value your life you won't let a Tesla ever drive you without paying attention the entire time.
itsoktocry 2y ago
>A certain founder should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. I don't think "hard time" is appropriate for white collar crimes. Money is how you speak to these people. Martha Stewart is still worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
- ericmay 2y ago
  I'm not sure Martha Stewart actually did "hard time" - she spent what, a few months in jail? Try 10-20 years. I'm also not arguing for against jail time for white collar crimes, just disputing that she specifically did hard time. Maybe the FTX guy or Enron guys are more appropriate for a comparison.
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    > I'm not sure Martha Stewart actually did "hard time" - she spent what, a few months in jail? Try 10-20 years. From what I recall of studies, and also from what I've heard from criminal defense lawyers, sending someone to jail for even very short amount of times is likely to have a meaningful effect on their behavior. Even sending a white-collar defendant to jail for a few hours can win a lot of cooperation from them; and studies seem to indicate that there's no meaningful difference between a year in prison and 20 years in prison.
- Zigurd 2y ago
  The size of white collar crimes, measured in financial damage, and the large number of victims of many white collar crimes, not to mention the damage to the economy, institutional reputation, etc. makes a car theft ring that would get 10 years look like piffle.
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago
  Hard time costs humans the same amount whether they're rich or poor - insofar as the justice system is equally accessible and you can't just lawyer your way out if wealthy or get screwed by a disinterested public defender if poor, of course. Money is amoral. It quickly becomes a calculation of ROI to violate the law. We've been reluctant for some reason to index fines against the wealth of the offender, but what would be a ruinous fine for a poor person is irrelevant to a wealthy person (eg. $1000 gag order violations). Also, the wheels of justice turn inexorably but slowly, and if first-to-market matters a lot with new there may be no fine that could restore things to the way it should have been if everyone acted within the law.
throwtappedmac 2y ago
I think Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading idk how similar that is. With OTA updates still could claim this could happen. This imo is less than both Theranos and insider trading like the FSD has disclaimers right? Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD and not best in class EV experience The pay package being declined by a Delaware court and now this couldnt have come at a worse time for Musk though. Billionaires got their problems too huh
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD Not specifically that, but Musk has stated that he sees Tesla as a software company.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading "Stewart was found guilty on charges including conspiracy and obstruction of justice" [1]. She sold shares on inside information. She went to jail for lying to investigators about it. [1] https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence-look-back-8550277 https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence...
  - ok123456 2y ago
    There was no insider trading. She thought she was in trouble and made up a story for the investigators that it was a limit order, which she was convicted of. While lying is bad, this was a case of overzealous prosecution because it was a high-profile case and an inappropriate use of resources. Instead of prison, they should have just had her do some cheezy PSAs and enter in to a deferred prosecution agreement. I find the members of congress consistently beating the market to be much more troubling.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > was no insider trading "Martha Stewart, the founder of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, also became embroiled in the scandal after it emerged that her broker, Peter Bacanovic, tipped her off that ImClone was about to drop. In response, Stewart sold about $230,000 in ImClone shares on December 27, 2001, a day before the announcement of the FDA decision" [1]. It’s far from fact that she did not trade on inside information. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImClone_stock_trading_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImClone_stock_trading_case
snarf21 2y ago
We all need to remember Musk wasn't the founder. He was an early investor that forced the founders out. We can argue about whether the founders would have been more/less successful but he didn't found Tesla. [https://www.theverge.com/23815634/tesla-elon-musk-origin-founder-twitter-land-of-the-giants https://www.theverge.com/23815634/tesla-elon-musk-origin-fou...]
- _akhe 2y ago
  Elon "take-n-tank" Musk the brand destroyer lol I have an even funnier one for you: That viral video of when he was bald and bought that very expensive McLaren... "It's the highlight of my life" he said shortly before totaling the car with no insurance. "He's a genius!"
  - orwin 2y ago
    Wow, if he's a McLaren fan, i guess going for looks over practicality is not surprising! (I'm joking, but not really).
  - Sparyjerry 2y ago
    I'm always curious what caused you and other to hate Elon so much? I think when he bought Twitter and unbanned some conservatives?
    - nhfhsjs 2y ago
      Forget Twitter fuup because he made some bad decison and he is trying to build again Forget pedo comments on diver because may be he tweeted in the heat of the moment Forget blaming an engineer at spacex initial days for the launch failure and notacceptimg it later when the truth was known because may be he cares more about the company which is err... Forget not taking seriously about Tesla safety and firing who brought attention because he genuinely thought it's really not a big deal. But the following can never be forgiven. Considering the way he projects himself a savior of civilization. He does not value other human life. Hiring surrogate mother for his then girlfriends second* child. His probably 9th or 10th child. How is this ethical. That too it's not like he doesnot have any children.

by animex 2y ago

_akhe 2y ago

I agree 100% he should be prosecuted at this point. He should have been the first time.

deegles 2y ago

This could have been avoided just by calling it "Partial Self Driving" and then everything would be above board.

dawnerd 2y ago
That’s only part of the problem. They’re specifically investigating claims Elon made himself where he said the car drove itself without human input. He’s repeatedly made claims like this.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
That’s what they call it in the aerospace industry /s
- kube-system 2y ago
  "Self driving" means something. There are industry standards for that phraseology that pre-date Tesla's (mis)usage. "Autopilot" may have been colloquially misleading (because of the public's unfamiliarity with aviation), but I don't think that name was problematic. Autopilot in planes can historically look like a basic cruise control. However, some of the associated statements and demonstrations at that time were problematic. (e.g. "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.")
tromp 2y ago
Or "Fool's Self Driving" to preserve the pronunciation:-)
- _akhe 2y ago
  Haha I like the Fool's Gold analogy because his family owned an Emerald company in Zambia: "During that time," said Errol, speaking to Elon's college years, "I managed to send money I made from emerald sales to him and [Elon's brother, Kimbal Musk] for living expenses."
api 2y ago
It's advanced cruise control, basically, and if advertised as such it'd be great.
- Sparyjerry 2y ago
  That was auto-pilot. FSD literally does what it says, if the government didn't require you to be attentive you wouldn't have to be.
  - robertjpayne 2y ago
    If you value your life you won't let a Tesla ever drive you without paying attention the entire time.

itsoktocry 2y ago

>A certain founder should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. I don't think "hard time" is appropriate for white collar crimes. Money is how you speak to these people. Martha Stewart is still worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

ericmay 2y ago
I'm not sure Martha Stewart actually did "hard time" - she spent what, a few months in jail? Try 10-20 years. I'm also not arguing for against jail time for white collar crimes, just disputing that she specifically did hard time. Maybe the FTX guy or Enron guys are more appropriate for a comparison.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  > I'm not sure Martha Stewart actually did "hard time" - she spent what, a few months in jail? Try 10-20 years. From what I recall of studies, and also from what I've heard from criminal defense lawyers, sending someone to jail for even very short amount of times is likely to have a meaningful effect on their behavior. Even sending a white-collar defendant to jail for a few hours can win a lot of cooperation from them; and studies seem to indicate that there's no meaningful difference between a year in prison and 20 years in prison.
Zigurd 2y ago
The size of white collar crimes, measured in financial damage, and the large number of victims of many white collar crimes, not to mention the damage to the economy, institutional reputation, etc. makes a car theft ring that would get 10 years look like piffle.
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
Hard time costs humans the same amount whether they're rich or poor - insofar as the justice system is equally accessible and you can't just lawyer your way out if wealthy or get screwed by a disinterested public defender if poor, of course. Money is amoral. It quickly becomes a calculation of ROI to violate the law. We've been reluctant for some reason to index fines against the wealth of the offender, but what would be a ruinous fine for a poor person is irrelevant to a wealthy person (eg. $1000 gag order violations). Also, the wheels of justice turn inexorably but slowly, and if first-to-market matters a lot with new there may be no fine that could restore things to the way it should have been if everyone acted within the law.

throwtappedmac 2y ago

I think Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading idk how similar that is. With OTA updates still could claim this could happen. This imo is less than both Theranos and insider trading like the FSD has disclaimers right? Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD and not best in class EV experience The pay package being declined by a Delaware court and now this couldnt have come at a worse time for Musk though. Billionaires got their problems too huh

FireBeyond 2y ago
> Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD Not specifically that, but Musk has stated that he sees Tesla as a software company.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading "Stewart was found guilty on charges including conspiracy and obstruction of justice" [1]. She sold shares on inside information. She went to jail for lying to investigators about it. [1] https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence-look-back-8550277 https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence...
- ok123456 2y ago
  There was no insider trading. She thought she was in trouble and made up a story for the investigators that it was a limit order, which she was convicted of. While lying is bad, this was a case of overzealous prosecution because it was a high-profile case and an inappropriate use of resources. Instead of prison, they should have just had her do some cheezy PSAs and enter in to a deferred prosecution agreement. I find the members of congress consistently beating the market to be much more troubling.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > was no insider trading "Martha Stewart, the founder of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, also became embroiled in the scandal after it emerged that her broker, Peter Bacanovic, tipped her off that ImClone was about to drop. In response, Stewart sold about $230,000 in ImClone shares on December 27, 2001, a day before the announcement of the FDA decision" [1]. It’s far from fact that she did not trade on inside information. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImClone_stock_trading_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImClone_stock_trading_case

snarf21 2y ago

We all need to remember Musk wasn't the founder. He was an early investor that forced the founders out. We can argue about whether the founders would have been more/less successful but he didn't found Tesla. [https://www.theverge.com/23815634/tesla-elon-musk-origin-founder-twitter-land-of-the-giants https://www.theverge.com/23815634/tesla-elon-musk-origin-fou...]

_akhe 2y ago
Elon "take-n-tank" Musk the brand destroyer lol I have an even funnier one for you: That viral video of when he was bald and bought that very expensive McLaren... "It's the highlight of my life" he said shortly before totaling the car with no insurance. "He's a genius!"
- orwin 2y ago
  Wow, if he's a McLaren fan, i guess going for looks over practicality is not surprising! (I'm joking, but not really).
- Sparyjerry 2y ago
  I'm always curious what caused you and other to hate Elon so much? I think when he bought Twitter and unbanned some conservatives?
  - nhfhsjs 2y ago
    Forget Twitter fuup because he made some bad decison and he is trying to build again Forget pedo comments on diver because may be he tweeted in the heat of the moment Forget blaming an engineer at spacex initial days for the launch failure and notacceptimg it later when the truth was known because may be he cares more about the company which is err... Forget not taking seriously about Tesla safety and firing who brought attention because he genuinely thought it's really not a big deal. But the following can never be forgiven. Considering the way he projects himself a savior of civilization. He does not value other human life. Hiring surrogate mother for his then girlfriends second* child. His probably 9th or 10th child. How is this ethical. That too it's not like he doesnot have any children.