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I can't buy a MacBook Air for less than $999, and that's for a model with 8GB RAM, an 8-core CPU and 256GB SSD. The equivalent (based on raw specs) in the PC wo

I can't buy a MacBook Air for less than $999, and that's for a model with 8GB RAM, an 8-core CPU and 256GB SSD. The equivalent (based on raw specs) in the PC world runs for $300 to $500. How is something that is twice as expensive as the competition not a luxury device? EDIT: Because there's repeated confusion in the replies: I am not saying that a MacBook Air is not objectively a better device. I'm saying it is better by metrics that fall strictly into the "luxury" category. Better build quality, system-on-a-chip, better OS, better battery life, aluminum case—all of these are luxury characteristics that someone who is looking for a functional device that meets their needs at a decent price won't have as dealbreakers.

spurgu 3y ago
Really? You can find a laptop with the equivalent of Apple Silicon for $3-500? And while I haven't used Windows in ages I doubt it runs as well with 8 GB as MacOS does.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Sure, then try this one from HP with 16GB RAM and a CPU that benchmarks in the same ballpark as the M2, for $387: https://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-i7-11370H-Micro-Edge-Anti-Glare/dp/B09NL8JTB6/ https://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-i7-11370H-Micro-Edge-Anti... The point isn't that the MacBook Air isn't better by some metrics than PC laptops. A Rolls-Royce is "better" by certain metrics than a Toyota, too. What makes a device luxury is if it costs substantially more than competing products that the average person would consider a valid replacement.
  - zlsa 3y ago
    I'm not sure a machine that benchmarks half as fast as an M2 can be said to be in the same ballpark. MacBook Air (2022): https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 Ryzen 5 5500U (CPU): https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5500u Ryzen 5 5500U (APU, similar laptop): https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/6751456 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/6751456
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    No offense, but you sound like a garbage salesman at flee market trying to sell his junk.
  - breuleux 3y ago
    > the average person would consider a valid replacement But what is that, exactly? If you look at all aspects of a laptop: CPU, RAM, SSD, battery life, screen quality, build quality, touchpad, OS, and put them in order of importance for the average consumer, what would be on top? I don't think it's the tech specs. For instance, I would be willing to bet that for a large number of consumers, battery life is far more important than the tech specs, which means that a valid replacement for their MacBook must have equivalent battery life. You also have to consider things like the expected lifespan of the laptop and its resale value to properly compare their costs. It's not simple.
datadrivenangel 3y ago
How much does it cost to get a device with comparable specs, performance, and 18 hour battery life? Closer to $999 then $500.
- lolinder 3y ago
  This CPU benchmarks in the same ballpark as the M2 and it runs for $329: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Ryzen5-5500U-1920x1080-Storage/dp/B0CJB5N9BQ/ https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Ryzen5-5500U-1920x1080... An 18 hour battery life is a luxury characteristic, not something penny pinchers will typically be selecting on.
  - outworlder 3y ago
    What about the rest of the system? The SSD, for example? Apple likes to overcharge for storage, but the drives are _really_ good.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      When you're breaking out SSD speeds you're definitely getting into the "luxury" territory. As I said in another comment: The point isn't that the MacBook Air isn't better by some metrics than PC laptops. A Rolls-Royce is "better" by certain metrics than a Toyota, too. What makes a device luxury is if it costs substantially more than competing products that the average person would consider a valid replacement.
    - hatsix 3y ago
      There is no user buying a lowest-tier Macbook Air who would be able to tell the difference between the Lenovo SSD and the Macbook SSD.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      When I bought my cheesegrater Mac Pro, I wanted 8TB of SSD. Except Apple wanted $3,000 for 7TB of SSD (considering the base price already included 1TB). Instead, I bought a 4xM.2 PCI card, and 4 2TB Samsung Pro SSDs. I paid $1,300 for it, got to keep the 1TB "system" SSD. And I get faster speeds from it, 6.8GBps versus 5.5GBps off the system drive. For $2,000 I could have got the PCI 4.0 version and SSDs, and get 26GBps.
vampiresdoexist 3y ago
Build quality, battery life, clean os install, and the value held over time has no Windows equivalent even at some much higher price points.
- lolinder 3y ago
  The same thing can be (and is!) said about luxury car brands. That's what makes the MacBook Air a luxury item. Most people, when given the pitch you just gave me for a 2x increase in price, will choose the cheaper item, just like they choose the cheaper car.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    They’re tools. This attempt to treat them as luxury goods doesn’t hold with those. It’s entirely common for even people who want to do some home repair—let alone professionals—but aren’t clueless about DIY to spend 2x the cheapest option, because they know the cheapest one is actually worth $0. More will advocate spending way more than 2x, as long as you’re 100% sure you’re going to use it a lot (like, say, a phone or laptop, even for a lot of non-computer-geeks). This is true even if they’re just buying a simple lowish-power impact driver, nothing fancy, not the most powerful one, not the one with the most features. Still, they’ll often not go for the cheapest one, because those are generally not even fit for their intended purpose. [edit] I mean sure there are people who just want the Apple logo, I’m not saying there are zero of those, but they’re also excellent, reliable tools (by the standards of computers—so, still bad) and a good chunk of their buyers are there for that. Even the ones who only have a phone.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I didn't go for the cheapest option: I'm typing this on a laptop that I bought a few months ago for $1200. It has an aluminum case, 32GB RAM, an AMD Ryzen CPU that benchmarks similar to the M3, and 1TB SSD. I can open it up and replace parts with ease. The equivalent from Apple would currently run me $3200. If I'm willing to compromise to 24GB of RAM I can get one for $2200. What makes an Apple device a luxury item isn't that it's more expensive, it's that no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider. The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people. Note that there's nothing wrong with buying a luxury item! It's entirely unsurprising that most people on HN looking at the latest M4 chip prefer luxury computers, and that's fine!
kotaKat 3y ago
I can walk into many Walmarts in the US right now with $699 and walk out with a MBA with the M1. That's a damn good deal.
- lolinder 3y ago
  That's still ~twice as expensive as the items I linked to below, and that's at clearance prices. A good deal on a luxury item still gets you a luxury item. And if we want to compare Walmart to Walmart, this thing currently runs for $359 and has 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, and a CPU that benchmarks slightly faster than the M2: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Acer-Aspire-3-15-6-inch-Laptop-AMD-Ryzen-7-5700U-16GB-RAM-512GB-SSD-Pure-Silver/5262667268 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Acer-Aspire-3-15-6-inch-Laptop-AM...
  - epcoa 3y ago
    Oh dear. 16:10 screen with superior resolution, brightness and gamut - and it still gets superior battery life driving all those pixels.. that’s a headline feature that even a non-propellerhead can observe (I was honestly surprised when I looked up that Acer screen what a dim, narrow piece of shit it is) - notably there are ballpark priced systems with better screens. I think you unjustifiably downplay how much of a selling point a screen that looks great (or at least decent) on the floor is. And I know tons of devs that put up with the 45% NTSC abominations on Thinkpads that aren’t even suitable for casual photo editing or web media, just because you make do with that doesn’t automatically make a halfway decent display on a laptop a “luxury”. Sorry, but don’t buy the “everything that isn’t a $300 econo shit laptop is luxury” thesis repeated ad nauseum.
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    - int_19h 3y ago
      What defines "luxury" exactly if not the combination of price and "premium experience"?
vinkelhake 3y ago
Walmart is currently selling Apple's old stock of M1 Airs. You can get the 8GB 256GB version for $699.
- lolinder 3y ago
  See my reply to the person that beat you to it: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40292804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40292804 tl;dr is that Walmart is also selling an Acer for $359 that beats that device on every headline metric. It's nice to know that I could get the old-gen model for slightly cheaper, but that's still an outrageous price if the MacBook Air isn't to be considered a luxury item.
  - zer0zzz 3y ago
    It’s half the price because by the time the MacBook Air dies you’re on your second or third acer.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      My last Acer lasted me six years until I decided to replace it for more power (which, notably, I would have done with a MacBook by then too). They're not as well built as a MacBook, but they're well built enough for the average laptop turnover rate.
      - zer0zzz 3y ago
        That’s fair
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  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    The apple defense force would rather die than admit that Apple hardware is overpriced and a bad value. 8gb of ram was pathetic in 2018, and is SUPER pathetic in 2024.
zer0zzz 3y ago
what you’re arguing is that a product that meets the basic criteria of a good product makes it luxury. That seems pretty wild to me. No one calls a Toyota Camry with base options luxury but it works well for a long time and has good quality.
- lolinder 3y ago
  My Acer Aspire lasted me for tens of thousands of hours of use and abuse by small children over 6 years until I replaced it this year because I finally felt like I wanted more power. That's the Toyota Camry of laptops. The features that Apple adds on top of that are strictly optional. You can very much prefer them and think that they're essential, but that doesn't make it so. Some people feel that way about leather seats.
  - zer0zzz 3y ago
    No, that’s a Corolla or a Kia Forte of laptops.
zombiwoof 3y ago
I bought a used thinkpad x13 for 350 bucks. It won me over from my m3 MacBook Pro that costs 4 times as much
- skibbityboop 3y ago
  I got a Latitude 9430 on eBay for $520. This thing is an amazing laptop and I'd put it right there with the Macs I have to work with at dayjob, as far as build quality/feel.
insaneirish 3y ago
> How is something that is twice as expensive as the competition not a luxury device? You can buy a version of <insert product here> from Walmart at 1/2 price of a "normal" retailer. Does that mean every "normal" retailer is actually a luxury goods dealer? Is my diner a luxury restaurant because a burger costs twice as much as McDonald's? Stop the silliness.
- lolinder 3y ago
  All I'm learning from comments like this is that there are a lot of people who are very resistant to the idea that they buy luxury goods.
  - golergka 3y ago
    When I buy a Rick Owens coat for $3k, sure it's a luxury good. It protects from the elements just the same, I know that I overpay only because it looks nice. But when I pay the same for the device I need for my work and use for 12 hours a day, it’s not luxury — it's just common sense. I've tried working with Windows and Linux, and I know that I'm paying not only for specs, but because the sum of all the qualities will result in a much better experience — which will allow me to work (and earn money) faster and with less headache.
  - antifa 3y ago
    $1000 for a laptop that will last 10 years seems crazy to call a luxury, when we have Alienware/apple laptops that go for 2k to 5k+ and demographics that buys them yearly.
    - achenet 3y ago
      I bought a 300 euro ThinkPad that's going on 9 years now. It was my only computer for the entire time until about a week ago, when I bought another 300 euro ThinkPad. I also didn't have a smartphone, only a basic dumbphone for a large portion of that time. So for me, yes, MacBook Airs, like the lovely M1 I'm writing this on (I love my job!) are luxury goods. Just because Ferraris cost half a million doesn't mean a 50k BMW isn't luxury.
wiseowise 3y ago
> The equivalent (based on raw specs) in the PC world runs for $300 to $500. Equivalent device?! Find me Windows laptop in ANY price category that can match weight, fanless design, screen quality, battery life, speakers quality and battery life of Air.
- deleted 3y ago
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kortilla 3y ago
Is a Wendy’s burger luxury because it costs twice as much as McDonald’s? Cost comparisons alone are stupid. And “this AMD benchmarks the same as an M2” is a useless comparison since regular people don’t buy laptops for raw compute power.

spurgu 3y ago

Really? You can find a laptop with the equivalent of Apple Silicon for $3-500? And while I haven't used Windows in ages I doubt it runs as well with 8 GB as MacOS does.

lolinder 3y ago
Sure, then try this one from HP with 16GB RAM and a CPU that benchmarks in the same ballpark as the M2, for $387: https://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-i7-11370H-Micro-Edge-Anti-Glare/dp/B09NL8JTB6/ https://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-i7-11370H-Micro-Edge-Anti... The point isn't that the MacBook Air isn't better by some metrics than PC laptops. A Rolls-Royce is "better" by certain metrics than a Toyota, too. What makes a device luxury is if it costs substantially more than competing products that the average person would consider a valid replacement.
- zlsa 3y ago
  I'm not sure a machine that benchmarks half as fast as an M2 can be said to be in the same ballpark. MacBook Air (2022): https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-2022 Ryzen 5 5500U (CPU): https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5500u https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-5500u Ryzen 5 5500U (APU, similar laptop): https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/6751456 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/compute/6751456
- wiseowise 3y ago
  No offense, but you sound like a garbage salesman at flee market trying to sell his junk.
- breuleux 3y ago
  > the average person would consider a valid replacement But what is that, exactly? If you look at all aspects of a laptop: CPU, RAM, SSD, battery life, screen quality, build quality, touchpad, OS, and put them in order of importance for the average consumer, what would be on top? I don't think it's the tech specs. For instance, I would be willing to bet that for a large number of consumers, battery life is far more important than the tech specs, which means that a valid replacement for their MacBook must have equivalent battery life. You also have to consider things like the expected lifespan of the laptop and its resale value to properly compare their costs. It's not simple.

datadrivenangel 3y ago

How much does it cost to get a device with comparable specs, performance, and 18 hour battery life? Closer to $999 then $500.

lolinder 3y ago
This CPU benchmarks in the same ballpark as the M2 and it runs for $329: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Ryzen5-5500U-1920x1080-Storage/dp/B0CJB5N9BQ/ https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Ryzen5-5500U-1920x1080... An 18 hour battery life is a luxury characteristic, not something penny pinchers will typically be selecting on.
- outworlder 3y ago
  What about the rest of the system? The SSD, for example? Apple likes to overcharge for storage, but the drives are _really_ good.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    When you're breaking out SSD speeds you're definitely getting into the "luxury" territory. As I said in another comment: The point isn't that the MacBook Air isn't better by some metrics than PC laptops. A Rolls-Royce is "better" by certain metrics than a Toyota, too. What makes a device luxury is if it costs substantially more than competing products that the average person would consider a valid replacement.
  - hatsix 3y ago
    There is no user buying a lowest-tier Macbook Air who would be able to tell the difference between the Lenovo SSD and the Macbook SSD.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    When I bought my cheesegrater Mac Pro, I wanted 8TB of SSD. Except Apple wanted $3,000 for 7TB of SSD (considering the base price already included 1TB). Instead, I bought a 4xM.2 PCI card, and 4 2TB Samsung Pro SSDs. I paid $1,300 for it, got to keep the 1TB "system" SSD. And I get faster speeds from it, 6.8GBps versus 5.5GBps off the system drive. For $2,000 I could have got the PCI 4.0 version and SSDs, and get 26GBps.

vampiresdoexist 3y ago

Build quality, battery life, clean os install, and the value held over time has no Windows equivalent even at some much higher price points.

lolinder 3y ago
The same thing can be (and is!) said about luxury car brands. That's what makes the MacBook Air a luxury item. Most people, when given the pitch you just gave me for a 2x increase in price, will choose the cheaper item, just like they choose the cheaper car.
- vundercind 3y ago
  They’re tools. This attempt to treat them as luxury goods doesn’t hold with those. It’s entirely common for even people who want to do some home repair—let alone professionals—but aren’t clueless about DIY to spend 2x the cheapest option, because they know the cheapest one is actually worth $0. More will advocate spending way more than 2x, as long as you’re 100% sure you’re going to use it a lot (like, say, a phone or laptop, even for a lot of non-computer-geeks). This is true even if they’re just buying a simple lowish-power impact driver, nothing fancy, not the most powerful one, not the one with the most features. Still, they’ll often not go for the cheapest one, because those are generally not even fit for their intended purpose. [edit] I mean sure there are people who just want the Apple logo, I’m not saying there are zero of those, but they’re also excellent, reliable tools (by the standards of computers—so, still bad) and a good chunk of their buyers are there for that. Even the ones who only have a phone.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I didn't go for the cheapest option: I'm typing this on a laptop that I bought a few months ago for $1200. It has an aluminum case, 32GB RAM, an AMD Ryzen CPU that benchmarks similar to the M3, and 1TB SSD. I can open it up and replace parts with ease. The equivalent from Apple would currently run me $3200. If I'm willing to compromise to 24GB of RAM I can get one for $2200. What makes an Apple device a luxury item isn't that it's more expensive, it's that no matter what specs you pick it will always be much more expensive than equivalent specs from a non-luxury provider. The things that Apple provides are not the headline stats that matter for a tool-user, they're luxury properties that don't actually matter to most people. Note that there's nothing wrong with buying a luxury item! It's entirely unsurprising that most people on HN looking at the latest M4 chip prefer luxury computers, and that's fine!

kotaKat 3y ago

I can walk into many Walmarts in the US right now with $699 and walk out with a MBA with the M1. That's a damn good deal.

lolinder 3y ago
That's still ~twice as expensive as the items I linked to below, and that's at clearance prices. A good deal on a luxury item still gets you a luxury item. And if we want to compare Walmart to Walmart, this thing currently runs for $359 and has 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, and a CPU that benchmarks slightly faster than the M2: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Acer-Aspire-3-15-6-inch-Laptop-AMD-Ryzen-7-5700U-16GB-RAM-512GB-SSD-Pure-Silver/5262667268 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Acer-Aspire-3-15-6-inch-Laptop-AM...
- epcoa 3y ago
  Oh dear. 16:10 screen with superior resolution, brightness and gamut - and it still gets superior battery life driving all those pixels.. that’s a headline feature that even a non-propellerhead can observe (I was honestly surprised when I looked up that Acer screen what a dim, narrow piece of shit it is) - notably there are ballpark priced systems with better screens. I think you unjustifiably downplay how much of a selling point a screen that looks great (or at least decent) on the floor is. And I know tons of devs that put up with the 45% NTSC abominations on Thinkpads that aren’t even suitable for casual photo editing or web media, just because you make do with that doesn’t automatically make a halfway decent display on a laptop a “luxury”. Sorry, but don’t buy the “everything that isn’t a $300 econo shit laptop is luxury” thesis repeated ad nauseum.
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  - int_19h 3y ago
    What defines "luxury" exactly if not the combination of price and "premium experience"?

vinkelhake 3y ago

Walmart is currently selling Apple's old stock of M1 Airs. You can get the 8GB 256GB version for $699.

lolinder 3y ago
See my reply to the person that beat you to it: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40292804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40292804 tl;dr is that Walmart is also selling an Acer for $359 that beats that device on every headline metric. It's nice to know that I could get the old-gen model for slightly cheaper, but that's still an outrageous price if the MacBook Air isn't to be considered a luxury item.
- zer0zzz 3y ago
  It’s half the price because by the time the MacBook Air dies you’re on your second or third acer.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    My last Acer lasted me six years until I decided to replace it for more power (which, notably, I would have done with a MacBook by then too). They're not as well built as a MacBook, but they're well built enough for the average laptop turnover rate.
    - zer0zzz 3y ago
      That’s fair
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- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  The apple defense force would rather die than admit that Apple hardware is overpriced and a bad value. 8gb of ram was pathetic in 2018, and is SUPER pathetic in 2024.

zer0zzz 3y ago

what you’re arguing is that a product that meets the basic criteria of a good product makes it luxury. That seems pretty wild to me. No one calls a Toyota Camry with base options luxury but it works well for a long time and has good quality.

lolinder 3y ago
My Acer Aspire lasted me for tens of thousands of hours of use and abuse by small children over 6 years until I replaced it this year because I finally felt like I wanted more power. That's the Toyota Camry of laptops. The features that Apple adds on top of that are strictly optional. You can very much prefer them and think that they're essential, but that doesn't make it so. Some people feel that way about leather seats.
- zer0zzz 3y ago
  No, that’s a Corolla or a Kia Forte of laptops.

zombiwoof 3y ago

I bought a used thinkpad x13 for 350 bucks. It won me over from my m3 MacBook Pro that costs 4 times as much

skibbityboop 3y ago
I got a Latitude 9430 on eBay for $520. This thing is an amazing laptop and I'd put it right there with the Macs I have to work with at dayjob, as far as build quality/feel.

insaneirish 3y ago

> How is something that is twice as expensive as the competition not a luxury device? You can buy a version of <insert product here> from Walmart at 1/2 price of a "normal" retailer. Does that mean every "normal" retailer is actually a luxury goods dealer? Is my diner a luxury restaurant because a burger costs twice as much as McDonald's? Stop the silliness.

lolinder 3y ago
All I'm learning from comments like this is that there are a lot of people who are very resistant to the idea that they buy luxury goods.
- golergka 3y ago
  When I buy a Rick Owens coat for $3k, sure it's a luxury good. It protects from the elements just the same, I know that I overpay only because it looks nice. But when I pay the same for the device I need for my work and use for 12 hours a day, it’s not luxury — it's just common sense. I've tried working with Windows and Linux, and I know that I'm paying not only for specs, but because the sum of all the qualities will result in a much better experience — which will allow me to work (and earn money) faster and with less headache.
- antifa 3y ago
  $1000 for a laptop that will last 10 years seems crazy to call a luxury, when we have Alienware/apple laptops that go for 2k to 5k+ and demographics that buys them yearly.
  - achenet 3y ago
    I bought a 300 euro ThinkPad that's going on 9 years now. It was my only computer for the entire time until about a week ago, when I bought another 300 euro ThinkPad. I also didn't have a smartphone, only a basic dumbphone for a large portion of that time. So for me, yes, MacBook Airs, like the lovely M1 I'm writing this on (I love my job!) are luxury goods. Just because Ferraris cost half a million doesn't mean a 50k BMW isn't luxury.

wiseowise 3y ago

> The equivalent (based on raw specs) in the PC world runs for $300 to $500. Equivalent device?! Find me Windows laptop in ANY price category that can match weight, fanless design, screen quality, battery life, speakers quality and battery life of Air.

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kortilla 3y ago

Is a Wendy’s burger luxury because it costs twice as much as McDonald’s? Cost comparisons alone are stupid. And “this AMD benchmarks the same as an M2” is a useless comparison since regular people don’t buy laptops for raw compute power.