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> Conventional wisdom is that only certain office buildings can be converted to housing. If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be t

> Conventional wisdom is that only certain office buildings can be converted to housing. If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. I once toured a building that had been converted from an old warehouse to residential. Huge floorplate. They had built the condo units around the edges, created a hallway, and then the inside was divided up into "storage" spaces. Each condo owned the space directly across the hallway. They were very large, and people had transformed them into offices, arcades, workshops, playrooms, theaters, etc. You could do just about anything you wanted with the space, and because it wasn't "living space" you didn't have to worry so much about noise and the property taxes were lower than they otherwise would have been. You can't sell it for a price that includes that space as "living space" either. Which goes back to the point - if you can buy the building cheap enough, you can make anything work.

leoedin 2y ago
That sounds great! The thing I love most about living in a house is the prospect of “engineering space” - places to do carpentry, electronics, home maintenance etc. Living in an apartment (assuming adequate noise isolation) is actually great otherwise.
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Would a space in the center of an office tower really have enough air ventilation for ordinary hobby-maker work like sanding, soldering, painting, resin molding, grinding, etc?
  - pragma_x 2y ago
    Considering what some people do with basement spaces and almost no ventilation at all, I'm going to hazard a guess that a windowless interior room is not a dealbreaker.
    - ElevenLathe 2y ago
      Plus the fact that the commercial space that's being converted was often used for this sort of thing already anyway. Yes, this is mostly office space, but many engineering firms have an electronics lab or small prototyping workshop in their "office" space.
  - et-al 2y ago
    If anything with large towers, I wouldn't be surprised if the HVAC is routed adjacent of the elevator shafts in the center of the floor.
  - nine_k 2y ago
    Offices have ventilation. They are usually more densely manned than apartments. Unless they specifically tear it down during redevelopment (why would they?), there should be plenty of air circulation.
    - dbuxton 2y ago
      If you read the OP you will see that in one example that’s exactly what they do do - in order to reclaim the space occupied by HVAC and turn into more apartments!
LeafItAlone 2y ago
Are you willing to share where that building is? It sounds like a dream to me.
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  It was in Chicago, west of downtown
  - beaeglebeachh 2y ago
    Yes west of Chinatown. Cermak I think. Spice warehouse in days of old IIRC. Was used for raves decade+ ago. Place is a trip. I camped on top of it once when I was homeless. I've forgotten of that place for years. Truly magical. Thank you for the memory. I almost shake recalling it.
    - Kon-Peki 2y ago
      I think there are multiple of these kinds of buildings. The one I looked at would be considered West Loop these days.
      - hamburga 2y ago
        I’m actually looking at “West Loop” apartments right now. Would you mind sharing the address of the building?
        cozzyd 2y ago
        It sounds like maybe 165 N canal if my recollection from when I was condo shopping is correct (it was a bit above my price range, but I seriously envied the large storage space). The condo I ended up buying (a converted office building in the east loop) has a similar hall of storage rooms but they are much much smaller and not practical for anything other than storage.
        Kon-Peki 2y ago
        Sorry, it’s been a long time and I don’t remember. I know that we were looking for places that were within a 15-20 minute walk from the Loop offices where we worked.
jermaustin1 2y ago
NYC has a few places like this, but typically it is living space above the ground floor, and you can rent "dont-ask-dont-tell" space in the basement. Most people use it for storage, but I've seen a few workshops in them.
elevatedastalt 2y ago
> If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. Conventional wisdom is that there won't be too many windows available to throw conventional wisdom out of :-)
- rgblambda 2y ago
  Especially if the windows don't open.
  - chii 2y ago
    This is where you unconventionally put an LCD screen where a window should be, and put in HVAC systems to blow fresh air.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      You jest, but if someone makes a decent enough full-spectrum daylight simulator, and then get a stamp of approval from FDA (or whichever the authority is relevant here), they stand to make a lot of money by enabling residential use of windowless spaces. (Cue arguments on how dystopian this is. But hey, if the daylight simulator was to-spec, it wouldn't be the worst of things.)
      - askl 2y ago
        There was Munger Hall [1] but they didn't actually build it thankfully. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munger_Hall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munger_Hall
      - underlipton 2y ago
        They already have fake skylights that simulate Rayleigh scattering, but the main issue of not having window access is fire safety.
hedora 2y ago
I’ve seen similar, except the building had > 10 ft ceilings for some reason (it had been a factory). The owners built a ~ 9ft “building” that was missing a wall (and ceilings) inside the space. That was where the kitchen and bedrooms were. Light came in through the open wall in the kitchen, and from where the drop ceiling in the bedroom would have been. The rest of the factory floor was hobby / office / entertaining space. It was spectacular.
bombcar 2y ago
The danger is that people will be tempted to use the unlivable space as living space, and then you get some massive fire that kills a bunch, and then reactionary laws that prohibit everything uselessly.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  This is still the case with typical single family homes or apartments that end up being sublet. Lots of basement bedrooms that don't meet egress codes.
kumarsw 2y ago
I dunno if it's practical, but the idea of an urban "garage" for woodworking/storing your kayak sounds kinda awesome.
deltarholamda 2y ago
>If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. Maybe, but you can't throw out the building codes. A warehouse, certainly, can be retrofit. But office towers? Almost certainly not. Elevators are not sized for residential; electrical service not sized for residential loads (dishwasher/dryer/microwaves/ovens); HVAC not sized for residential heat loads (same as above); metering requirements means the existing electrical rooms are not large enough (they are never large enough); plumbing and sewer are not sized for residential. It goes on and on. Even if you got the building for free, you'd still want to run the numbers to see if it's still cheaper to demolish and build again. It's not entirely clear whether it is or is not. It can be done if you make huge, expansive apartments, which has to be read as "really expensive". There aren't that many really rich people who can drop 5 figures per month for an apartment.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  it's also possible for offices to be doing poorly but also still make more money than as a residential property. while vacancy rates are high, those vacancies are spread around, so some people are still renting in these office buildings. if you want to redevelop them you have to get the existing tenants out.
- rovolo 2y ago
  I understand electrical and plumbing, but why does the HVAC need to be bigger/smaller?
  - MrLeap 2y ago
    Just conjecturing, but I assume an apartment contains more ovens than an office. Would probably make it take more cooling?
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      They also contain lot less people. Average person generates 70-100W at rest. Add that to what ever screens, computers, extra lighting. And it is not that big difference in load.
tommychillfiger 2y ago
Damn, that sounds like an ideal place to live for me. I live in an apartment but also play music. I would love to be able to set up a drum kit (and maybe store an e-bike) and still be in my walkable area for cheap ish rent.
SergeAx 2y ago
Old warehouses were built very differently compared to modern office buildings. Specifically, office buildings are made to the load requirements of office spaces, with their symbolic walls and furniture. You may have trouble putting even bathtub into an apartment converted from an office.
shagie 2y ago
The shape isn't always right either. Pipe fixtures can be in the wrong spot. Structural pillars can't be removed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/city-downtown-conversion-office-building/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cit... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office-conversions.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qU0.jPtV.GZ87qfc8J5hN&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office... Note that things such as arcades may need additional power demands that the area isn't sized for (fire risk). Workshops may need added ventilation and woodsheds would require additional power too. A theater type area could have issues with fire codes and occupancy.
ProjectArcturis 2y ago
>If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. In St Louis, the largest building in the state, which is 1.4M square feet and 44 stories, recently sold for $3.5M. It sat empty for several years despite being offered basically for free. The new owners have not announced plans for it. It's a pretty pure test of your claim. I guess we'll see what happens.

leoedin 2y ago

That sounds great! The thing I love most about living in a house is the prospect of “engineering space” - places to do carpentry, electronics, home maintenance etc. Living in an apartment (assuming adequate noise isolation) is actually great otherwise.

mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Would a space in the center of an office tower really have enough air ventilation for ordinary hobby-maker work like sanding, soldering, painting, resin molding, grinding, etc?
- pragma_x 2y ago
  Considering what some people do with basement spaces and almost no ventilation at all, I'm going to hazard a guess that a windowless interior room is not a dealbreaker.
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    Plus the fact that the commercial space that's being converted was often used for this sort of thing already anyway. Yes, this is mostly office space, but many engineering firms have an electronics lab or small prototyping workshop in their "office" space.
- et-al 2y ago
  If anything with large towers, I wouldn't be surprised if the HVAC is routed adjacent of the elevator shafts in the center of the floor.
- nine_k 2y ago
  Offices have ventilation. They are usually more densely manned than apartments. Unless they specifically tear it down during redevelopment (why would they?), there should be plenty of air circulation.
  - dbuxton 2y ago
    If you read the OP you will see that in one example that’s exactly what they do do - in order to reclaim the space occupied by HVAC and turn into more apartments!

LeafItAlone 2y ago

Are you willing to share where that building is? It sounds like a dream to me.

Kon-Peki 2y ago
It was in Chicago, west of downtown
- beaeglebeachh 2y ago
  Yes west of Chinatown. Cermak I think. Spice warehouse in days of old IIRC. Was used for raves decade+ ago. Place is a trip. I camped on top of it once when I was homeless. I've forgotten of that place for years. Truly magical. Thank you for the memory. I almost shake recalling it.
  - Kon-Peki 2y ago
    I think there are multiple of these kinds of buildings. The one I looked at would be considered West Loop these days.
    - hamburga 2y ago
      I’m actually looking at “West Loop” apartments right now. Would you mind sharing the address of the building?
      - cozzyd 2y ago
        It sounds like maybe 165 N canal if my recollection from when I was condo shopping is correct (it was a bit above my price range, but I seriously envied the large storage space). The condo I ended up buying (a converted office building in the east loop) has a similar hall of storage rooms but they are much much smaller and not practical for anything other than storage.
      - Kon-Peki 2y ago
        Sorry, it’s been a long time and I don’t remember. I know that we were looking for places that were within a 15-20 minute walk from the Loop offices where we worked.

jermaustin1 2y ago

NYC has a few places like this, but typically it is living space above the ground floor, and you can rent "dont-ask-dont-tell" space in the basement. Most people use it for storage, but I've seen a few workshops in them.

elevatedastalt 2y ago

> If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. Conventional wisdom is that there won't be too many windows available to throw conventional wisdom out of :-)

rgblambda 2y ago
Especially if the windows don't open.
- chii 2y ago
  This is where you unconventionally put an LCD screen where a window should be, and put in HVAC systems to blow fresh air.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    You jest, but if someone makes a decent enough full-spectrum daylight simulator, and then get a stamp of approval from FDA (or whichever the authority is relevant here), they stand to make a lot of money by enabling residential use of windowless spaces. (Cue arguments on how dystopian this is. But hey, if the daylight simulator was to-spec, it wouldn't be the worst of things.)
    - askl 2y ago
      There was Munger Hall [1] but they didn't actually build it thankfully. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munger_Hall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munger_Hall
    - underlipton 2y ago
      They already have fake skylights that simulate Rayleigh scattering, but the main issue of not having window access is fire safety.

hedora 2y ago

I’ve seen similar, except the building had > 10 ft ceilings for some reason (it had been a factory). The owners built a ~ 9ft “building” that was missing a wall (and ceilings) inside the space. That was where the kitchen and bedrooms were. Light came in through the open wall in the kitchen, and from where the drop ceiling in the bedroom would have been. The rest of the factory floor was hobby / office / entertaining space. It was spectacular.

bombcar 2y ago

The danger is that people will be tempted to use the unlivable space as living space, and then you get some massive fire that kills a bunch, and then reactionary laws that prohibit everything uselessly.

CharlieDigital 2y ago
This is still the case with typical single family homes or apartments that end up being sublet. Lots of basement bedrooms that don't meet egress codes.

kumarsw 2y ago

I dunno if it's practical, but the idea of an urban "garage" for woodworking/storing your kayak sounds kinda awesome.

deltarholamda 2y ago

>If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. Maybe, but you can't throw out the building codes. A warehouse, certainly, can be retrofit. But office towers? Almost certainly not. Elevators are not sized for residential; electrical service not sized for residential loads (dishwasher/dryer/microwaves/ovens); HVAC not sized for residential heat loads (same as above); metering requirements means the existing electrical rooms are not large enough (they are never large enough); plumbing and sewer are not sized for residential. It goes on and on. Even if you got the building for free, you'd still want to run the numbers to see if it's still cheaper to demolish and build again. It's not entirely clear whether it is or is not. It can be done if you make huge, expansive apartments, which has to be read as "really expensive". There aren't that many really rich people who can drop 5 figures per month for an apartment.

bobthepanda 2y ago
it's also possible for offices to be doing poorly but also still make more money than as a residential property. while vacancy rates are high, those vacancies are spread around, so some people are still renting in these office buildings. if you want to redevelop them you have to get the existing tenants out.
rovolo 2y ago
I understand electrical and plumbing, but why does the HVAC need to be bigger/smaller?
- MrLeap 2y ago
  Just conjecturing, but I assume an apartment contains more ovens than an office. Would probably make it take more cooling?
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    They also contain lot less people. Average person generates 70-100W at rest. Add that to what ever screens, computers, extra lighting. And it is not that big difference in load.

tommychillfiger 2y ago

Damn, that sounds like an ideal place to live for me. I live in an apartment but also play music. I would love to be able to set up a drum kit (and maybe store an e-bike) and still be in my walkable area for cheap ish rent.

SergeAx 2y ago

Old warehouses were built very differently compared to modern office buildings. Specifically, office buildings are made to the load requirements of office spaces, with their symbolic walls and furniture. You may have trouble putting even bathtub into an apartment converted from an office.

shagie 2y ago

The shape isn't always right either. Pipe fixtures can be in the wrong spot. Structural pillars can't be removed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/city-downtown-conversion-office-building/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cit... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office-conversions.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qU0.jPtV.GZ87qfc8J5hN&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/11/upshot/office... Note that things such as arcades may need additional power demands that the area isn't sized for (fire risk). Workshops may need added ventilation and woodsheds would require additional power too. A theater type area could have issues with fire codes and occupancy.

ProjectArcturis 2y ago

>If you can buy the building cheap enough, conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. In St Louis, the largest building in the state, which is 1.4M square feet and 44 stories, recently sold for $3.5M. It sat empty for several years despite being offered basically for free. The new owners have not announced plans for it. It's a pretty pure test of your claim. I guess we'll see what happens.