13 ms·

Selling 'Ghost in the Shell'

240 points by zdw 3y ago

mark_l_watson 2y ago
I really like both the animated series and the movie with Scarlett Johansson. I am well into my 70s, and GITS appeals to my memories of Barberella and Flash Gordon comics.
XorNot 3y ago
Ghost In The Shell suffers from really dragging in the middle. There's a bunch a bunch of sequences which go on just way too long for the total amount of plot in the film, and there's a lot of missing context for the main character's motivation: we just kind of get a couple big exposition dumps, but no real feel for who the Major is or why the core conceit of the plot matters to her. The Stand Alone Complex series, conversely, is amazing.
- cjk2 3y ago
  Glad to hear that. I am about to get on the SAC wagon.
- Malcolmlisk 3y ago
  I remember enjoying the episodes who were outside of the central plot from SAC and SAC2. That episode when they explain the past of the sniper character and how he got recruited by the major was amazing and I watched it over and over.
  - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
    It would make a great stand alone movie.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Now this is a matter of taste, but I love the slow moments where the film just pans over city scenes with no dialogue. Just a little time to breathe and look at the art in the middle of the action. It's a film that posits a bunch of questions about human vs machine and then declines to answer them in favor of letting you think about them.
  - chiph 2y ago
    Those periods of "Ma"[0] really make the film for me, and their absence was a big part of of why I didn't like the 2017 Scarlett Johanssen version (I walked out of the theater I was so disappointed). They give you time to think & reflect on the implications of the scene that just ended, and how it will affect the forthcoming actions of the characters. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(negative_space) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(negative_space)
- wccrawford 3y ago
  I don't agree with you, but it's really sad that you're getting downvoted for having an opinion and explaining it. I'd understand it on Reddit, but this is HN, and it's supposed to be better here.
- bullfightonmars 3y ago
  I didn’t get SAC back when it was on Adult Swim. Seeing it randomly and out of order it seemed stale, slow, and too dense. But watched in sequence it is a fantastic bit of scifi.
- dclowd9901 2y ago
  I kind of like that we’re thrown headfirst into this world without a ton of exposition around motivations and whatnot. It feels _a lot_ like Blade Runner that way (my favorite film) — sort of confounding and urgent. And you’re teased with these glances and sprinkles of a very intriguing world. All of this is to say I think the movie is just fantastic and I regularly find new things to love about it on each rewatch.
  - ctchocula 2y ago
    > I kind of like that we’re thrown headfirst into this world without a ton of exposition around motivations and whatnot. It feels _a lot_ like Blade Runner that way (my favorite film) — sort of confounding and urgent. I really like this part of fiction and media as well, because it forces you to do some work piecing everything together, so you feel a bit like a detective as well. Way better than superhero movies where you are spoonfed everything. It's a common narrative device found in Phillip K. Dick books, one of which Blade Runner is based off of. I really like the way it builds suspense.
nanna 3y ago
I feel like I haven't seen an anime in years that's been in the same league as Akira or the great Miyazakis (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Totoro). Yes i'd be brutal and include Miyazakis following works in that list, from Howls Moving Castle to The Boy and the Heron. Ive seen lots of incredible animation, sure, but nothing like the cinematic depth. What am I missing? What should an old fart who's becoming convinced things were better in the old days put myself infront of?
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  My favorite is Patlabor 2. Here is the Japanese cultural explainer (spoiler): https://youtu.be/ybLKmO5Kq5A?si=bzIEK436EeWF_o5s https://youtu.be/ybLKmO5Kq5A?si=bzIEK436EeWF_o5s
  - flobosg 3y ago
    I haven’t watched it yet, but reading this article a while ago got me interested: 'Patlabor 2: The Movie' has stunningly realistic aerial combat – https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/realistic-aerial-combat-movie-patlabor-2/ https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/realistic-aerial-combat-m...
  - pjc50 3y ago
    I didn't understand why people kept recommending this until I spotted that the director is Mamoru Oshii, director of GitS. It's perfectly reasonable as a standalone film without having seen 1. And it's good in the same ways as GitS; mix of action, political thriller, and lingering artistic set piece.
    - yrro 3y ago
      You'll probably enjoy Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade as well.
- cjk2 3y ago
  There is good stuff out there. I watched Pantheon and Scavengers Reign recently, both excellent, but not old stable anime. Scavengers Reign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQH8cMpWTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQH8cMpWTU Pantheon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HJ3TSlo5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HJ3TSlo5c
djaouen 3y ago
Ahh, anime's heyday. I remember borrowing Samurai Champloo on VHS from my friend around that time when I was in high school... good times!
- duggan 3y ago
  Champloo came out in 2004, wasn’t VHS a distant memory by then, or was I just “living in the future”? :) Sure you’re not thinking of Cowboy Bebop?
  - djaouen 3y ago
    It might have been. Even then, I remember thinking that it was odd that it came on VHS. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Could well have been a "fansub" circulating on copied VHS.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    [not the OP] I find it quite amusing what many people (including myself sometimes) have a pretty blurry memory about when we moved from VHS. But I think it mostly contributes on what for some people VHS were a dominant media for quite a while, because they didn't had the means to see the digital media. It's easier to understand what the first [commercially] successful DVD player was PlayStation 2, which became available ~2001. Before that DVDs were quite a costly[0] endeavour. But at the same time people with the access to a computer (and a local 'everything for $15' totally-legit-shop) had the benefits of DivX ;) releases on a plain CD-ROMs, which every home computer had. Some anecdata: I first seen Blade (1998) on VHS, but The Matrix (1999) on DivX rip, yet (I think) Spirited Away (2001) on VHS. I frequented a local VHS rental (because a friend worked there and so it places it up to 2002? 2001?) so I had seen a lot of films on VHS, but again, by 2002 it was a meme how people searching for XXX on DC++ got XXX (2002) instead. [0] https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/your-1st-dvd-player-vs-1st-blu-ray-player-how-much-and-when-did-you-buy.273256/ https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/your-1st-...
bostik 3y ago
I hadn't realised Jin-Roh was from the same creator. And I can see why it wasn't a success: Jin-Roh is dark, properly dystopian, confusing, and unforgiving. But underneath there is a retold story of the little red riding-hood, in the original Grimm fashion. The wolf wins.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  Jin-Roh is but part of Oshii's other magnum opus, The Kerberos Saga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_Saga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_Saga . I haven't read the second half, which wasn't available in english when I first saw Jin Roh, but I've heard that The Red Spectacles and StrayDog are great if you liked it, but hard to find. I should retry that search one of these days.
- mmaniac 3y ago
  I found Jin-Roh's use of the Red Riding-Hood narrative to be much more subversive than a mere retelling. Both lead characters alternately play the role of red riding-hood and the wolf, luring each other in and betraying each others' trust at differing stages in the story. At the same time, neither truly wants to harm the other, but it's the human society they exist in which compels them to. The last shot of the movie is the Rotkaeppchen storybook lying in tatters in a puddle.
  - bostik 2y ago
    Oh, I had missed the bonus context of the last shot. For me it was a way to state the obvious: the hunter comes to the rescue only in fairy tales. In the world of the story, the difference between a wolf and a hunter is smaller than one might think.
- slillibri 2y ago
  FYI, Masamune Shirow is the creator of Ghost in the Shell. Mamoru Oshii directed the anime adaptation.
imp0cat 3y ago
Oh it's nice to see Animation Obsessive here. Their blog https://animationobsessive.substack.com/ https://animationobsessive.substack.com/ is worthy of a subscription - most of their articles are both informative and very well written.
chambers 3y ago
I rewatched Ghost in the Shell recently and I was struck by how poorly it aged. Its animation holds up but its story felt weaker than I remembered. Like the director reached for something deep, couldn't get ahold of it, and then covered his tracks behind wordy philosophy.
- webdoodle 2y ago
  I like to watch it with the subtitltes and dubbing. The dubbing is usually so dumbed down as to make it a completely different show.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- maxglute 3y ago
  >director reached for something deep, couldn't get ahold of it Translation/writing/dub wasn't very strong at the time, I can see how ppl feel now (and felt at the time) the headiness/philosophizng was filler for robot tanks and augment porn, but it was all there in the source manga by Shirow. IMO reaching for something deep about is what the series is all about, just explored more competently in shows like SAC where they had many hours to deep dwelve into many subjects.
  - jajko 3y ago
    To watch some classic in anything but original language is proper insult to the source and always subpar experience. Would you watch say Bicycle thieves with some yeager-speak variant too? I know 0 japanese but never ever watched any of their produce in anything but japanese with eng subs. Even though EN is not my primary language but one I grok easily without subs needed. Sure, people are lazy and have tons of excuses, but they are just that. If you(anybody) couldnt otherwise as a kid, do yourself a favor and re-experience it again in better form.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      But the English subs are the translation. You're going to need to learn Japanese to experience it in the original language.
Shinchy 3y ago
I'm not sure what others are saying, I re-watched Ghost in the Shell again recently and I had forgotten just how brilliant it is. There is something pure about it that you just don't find in modern anime, something that really resonated.
- YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
  That something is acetate.
  - xorbax 3y ago
    This is why I think Akira can't be surpassed. Not just because it was done on acetate, but because of the level of skill and consideration required to animate that way. You can't just undo that brush stroke onto the cel and try something else. As much as technology has democratized the field, I think it also lowers the heights. I desperately hope I'm wrong and just old, but I haven't met someone who puts up something that they think is better. Maybe it's just because we're in the transitory phase - but digital animation has been around for decades at this point. Maybe it's Ikea versus handcrafting, and the shift is in the expected quality rather than the art elevating itself to meet priors.
    - doublepg23 3y ago
      I think the democratization means the heights won't be big-budget corporate things, they'll be on YouTube or Patreon.
      - cedilla 3y ago
        Akira was a big budget corporate thing though. It's technical excellence came from having the budget to employ multiple highly skilled animation leads and hundreds of animators drawing hundreds of thousands of cells.
        fidotron 3y ago
rekabis 3y ago
The author fails in their understanding of Animé’s history in North America. While certain series such as The White Lion, Astroboy, Space Battleship Yamato (marketed over here as Starblazors) and Captain Harlock did see airtime first, it was Robotech - the Harmony Gold Frankenstein of three completely unrelated Animé series - that kicked off the process in 1984. It was Robotech that threw rocket fuel onto the burning embers of fandom in North America. Akira just helped the process along.
- YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
  There was very little "animé" in North America. If you prefer your animation with an acute accent, you're better off looking in France.
- kagakuninja 3y ago
  As a member of the underground anime scene, starting in the late 70s, I have a different perspective. Harmony Gold did nothing to actually promote anime, beyond hyping their own products. Robotech was the English translated anime that happened to be on air in the US when the necessary conditions for the anime explosion were in place. Those conditions were: Affordable VCRs (in the 70s, they cost as much as a small car). The Usenet / internet (for coordinating, sharing information, and creating tape sharing networks). Low cost computer video platforms for subtitling (e.g. Amiga + Video Toaster). In terms of popularity, people forget that Speed Racer, Kimba, etc were broadcast on network television, and had far more impact on popular culture than Robotech, which was syndicated. Captain Harlock ironically what got me interested in anime in the late '70s. It was not widely broadcast in the continental US, until Harmony Gold's despicable hack job which came after Robotech. One source of subtitled anime in the 70s was from Hawaii, which has a significant Japanese population. But to get that required having contacts with one of those very expensive VCRs.
  - rekabis 2y ago
    > Harmony Gold did nothing to actually promote anime, beyond hyping their own products. Robotech was the English translated anime that happened to be on air in the US And because it was in syndication, smack-dab in the centre of at least one major TV network that had Saturday morning cartoons, it was in front of _tens of millions_ of young children. That is why I highlight Robotech, instead of all the other series that came before it. Yes, Astro Boy and The White Lion came earlier, but they mostly showed on PBS and in non-standard time slots. I don’t recall them ever showing in the 0800-1100hrs Saturday morning time slots on any regular channel. But Robotech did. Captain Harlock was available in Canada, but only in Québecois, and again - not in a standard time slot. You had to wake up at 0630hrs on Saturday morning to catch it on channel 12, which few kids did. So yeah, I don’t dispute that the other factors you mentioned helped, but it was the time slot on Saturday morning which was the rocket fuel that made all the difference.
BoingBoomTschak 3y ago
Just a notice that all Blu-Rays of the 95 GITS are completely and hopelessly mangled (cropped, blurred and black crushed). The only "good" version is an old HDTV rip that was hand-remastered by Judgment; but with heavy smoothing in the process, a film grain shader to mask this is recommended. BD: http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/BD/02210-bd.png http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/BD... HDTV: http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/Judgment%20v2/%5bJudgment%5d%20Ghost%20in%20the%20Shell%20%5b1CE4C716%5d%2002210.png http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/Ju...
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  That's beyond heartbreaking. Everything is somehow getting worse but I'd held out hope that something universally considered a masterpiece might get better treatment. Do you know if a better release exists in Japan?
  - BoingBoomTschak 3y ago
    My wooden peg leg and the parrot on my experienced and still active privateer shoulder tell me no.
    - cjk2 3y ago
      That is the way. Arrr.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Anime piracy and subtitles, even with globalization, is on a different level. Especially with the detail and effort that goes into some fansubs.
        cjk2 3y ago
        Yeah exactly that. I had a crunchy roll subscription but shitcanned it in the end because the quality of the releases is an order of magnitude better from the pirates.
photochemsyn 3y ago
GITS is highly relevant today, but I can understand why the Hollywood remake gutted the original story, because GITS is a highly subversive work that directly attacks the authoritarian state's bureaucratic power structure. It's also the story of the transformation of a loyal servant of one of the state agencies, Major Kusangi, into an independent rogue agent who abandons that power structure in alliance with some form of synthetic intelligence, Project 2501. What sets it apart from similar rogue spy stories is the heavy emphasis on philosophical concepts - the Ship of Theseus in the context of a cyborg human whose every part has been replaced over time, the nature of self and other in the context of the merger of the Major's identity with that of P2501, the point at which obedience to the authoritarian state is abandoned and the rationale for that choice - all notions that make established power structures uneasy, and which accounts for the atrocious garbled plot line of the Hollywood remake.
- rvba 3y ago
  They botched the remake since it was done by incompetent people. That was (still is?) the time where Netflix was trying to build a library so they threw random people at random projects. Death Note Remake / live action film was botched too
bellboy_tech 3y ago
GITS is amazing as a design universe. The more you dig into the manga or movies (even the SACs) the deeper you get sucked in to what could be. From the vision of mind interfaces to the dream of mind across the net. It was WAY ahead of it's time and still stands up today. Every crevasse of the original Manga contains deep thought out design on what digital life could become. What constructs we become once we crossed that digital/biological line. Love it. Happy to buy into the sell.
- downrightmike 3y ago
  If you want a deeper look into the worlds of Anime at the time, I recommend: Anime Architecture : Imagined Worlds and Endless Megacities, Hardcover https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/anime-architecture-imagined-worlds-and-endless-megacities-hardcover https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/anime-architecture-... Its a really cool book
  - HenryBemis 2y ago
    I don't usually buy books 5mins after I see their title posted somewhere.. but seeing some of the drawings (and the topic) of the book, it is already on its way to me, and thank you for bringing it up!
  - throwaway17_17 2y ago
    In addition to being a bit of a digital hoarder, I have a decent collection of enlarged anime background paintings on the walls at my office. My tastes in subject matter are pretty wide ranging, but I don’t have a specific collection of the 80s anime film megacities paintings. This book seems to fill a gap I didn’t even think I had in what I display. I was super impressed by the price point of this book. All the reviews say the print quality is excellent. $45 for a ~250 page hardcover is a great deal even if you just want it to sit on a coffee table or book shelf. Thanks for the tip, I ordered immediately, and it’s going on the small desk in my office.
    - genuine_smiles 2y ago
hdt91 3y ago
I'm seeing quite a few recommendations for good shows in the comments, under an article about GITS and Mamoru Oshii, but surprisingly no one has brought up the two other fairly well-known (?) works: Angel's Egg and Urusei Yatsura 2. The first one just got the news about a 4k upgrade next year and first time Western release, while the other has few reasons to be a stand-alone movie of the same manga besides the main cast. Both are sometimes incredibly trippy and heady with the hypnotic 90s look, which seem to be much fewer in the modern anime but I haven't really kept up with new stuff these days as well as animation styles certainly evolve over time.
- mmaniac 3y ago
  I'm a fan of most of Oshii's work, and Angel's Egg is a particular favourite, but it's not hard to see why it's rarely recommended. The film has very little narrative and it leans heavily on visual symbolism.
  - kibwen 2y ago
    The best way to sell Angel's Egg to the people predisposed to seeking out anime is to mention its influence on Dark Souls 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wSol7JdG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wSol7JdG0
    - mmaniac 2y ago
      This comment had the reverse effect on me - Dark Souls 3 has been on my backlog for a while, and I'm now more keen to play it :)
    - AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
      Mentioning that Yoshitaka Amano worked on it might also be a draw for some people.
segmondy 3y ago
I have literally watched this movie 10x easily, and it's my "Continue Watching" menu in Netflix right now. Such a brilliant movie.
- a_t48 3y ago
  Same. For a while it was my comfort pick for a movie to have on while going to bed.
- amatecha 2y ago
  It's usually my first thing to watch on a new monitor or projector or whatever device I might want to see how well it shows a film. Another typical "test watch" is Vampire Hunter D. That and GitS are amazing anime films, IMO. Years ago I had a band (electronic/industrial style) and at one show we played, the venue staff were projecting stuff onto the stage and ceiling. I was super happy when I realized they were projecting GitS during my band's performance. Perfect choice! I think I thanked them afterward haha :)
gembeMx 3y ago
[dead]
AI_beffr 3y ago
anime is a completely pointless topic in my opinion. i honestly feel like it has no future because of AI. even if there is something that resembles anime in the future, it will all be drawn and probably written by AI. what is the point of that? and looking back, the only thing that made anime so good was that it was niche. GITS for example, while touching on interesting concepts and being beautifully drawn, doesnt have a very good story. it was niche enough, small enough and nimble enough to touch on cool, ahead-of-their-time concepts that hadnt yet broken through to mainstream. but beyond that, it doesnt really do much. most anime that ive seen is extremely violent, has meandering dis-jointed writing, etc. not of much value to anyone above the age of 16. watching GITS now is even more disappointing because all of the transhumanist, cyberpunk themes that are touched upon arent cool anymore. they are reality now. AI is here and its a real thing that we have to deal with. soon we really will have to deal with the concepts seen in GITS. and its just tired and disappointing because it wont be like a cool anime, it will be horrible and dangerous and disgusting. society will be shattered..
- sram1337 3y ago
  I don't think most people value the aspects of anime that you are highlighting as highly as you do
- cynicalsecurity 2y ago
  Reality sucks, got it.
tecleandor 3y ago
Feels weird not finding the name of Masamune Shirow even once in the article (or the comments here, at least the last time I checked)
- greenhearth 2y ago
  Probably should've been in the first sentence or at least in the opening paragraph of the whole thing.
- wodenokoto 3y ago
  Why?
  - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
    Just Google him.
  - edu 2y ago
    He’s the author of the original manga. Which is as good as the anime, if you haven’t read it I strongly recommend it!
- glandium 2y ago
  He's mentioned in the comments there.
  - tecleandor 2y ago
    Ah! I was searching but didn't see the comments as they open in a different page, at least on mobile. Thanks!
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
Saw it at the theater. What a time to be alive! And then three years later we get The Matrix!
- gpderetta 2y ago
  Rumour is that the sale pitch[1] for The Matrix was the Wachowskis showing GITS to the producers and saying "We wanna do that for real." (and wow, it was only three year later). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/oct/19/hollywood-ghost-in-the-shell https://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/oct/19/hollywood-ghost...
yieldcrv 2y ago
> That story started in the early ‘90s, in London. A local businessman saw Akira at an art film screening. Exhibit A on why I looooove movie screenings Imaging seeing a bunch of quirky short film misses from amateur producers that at least take initiative, to seeing Akira. in the early 90s. an advanced style in a medium nobody had really explored with a cohesive well thought out message. And you’re like “and this story and director came out of where? Japan?” today that would share similarities to the idea of something wholly unexpected in the entertainment world came out of Iraq, but without any fanfare just an exhibit at a small industry event in your town
- jonhohle 2y ago
  > an advanced style in a medium nobody had really explored with a cohesive well thought out message. Only of you ignore Miyazaki. Nausicaa and to a lesser extent Castle in the Sky aren’t cyberpunk, but definitely pushed the state of the art and storytelling forward with universally applicable narratives. I’m not saying Akira isn’t good or that the viewing wasn’t serendipitous, but it certainly wasn’t alone in what was happening in Japan at the time.
riffraff 2y ago
> America and Europe saw their first major “anime boom” during the ‘90s. I'm not sure that's true, we had a ton of anime in Europe in the 80s already. Capitan Tsubasa aired in 86 in Italy and 88 in France, and I'm pretty sure we had a lot of Go Nagai stuff before that.
- Enydosnes 2y ago
  As far as I'm aware, France was a relative outlier in Europe in regards to popularity of Japanese media with it preceding more widespread adoption in popular European culture.
- gpderetta 2y ago
  Indeed, Mazinger was an household name in Italy even earlier than that.
- dleeftink 2y ago
  There's also Alfred Jodokus Kwak by Herman van Veen, Akira Miyazaki and Hiroshi Saitō from '89, which was redubbed in many languages. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_J._Kwak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_J._Kwak
baobun 2y ago
90s cyperpunk existential anime produced with an eye for western markets could also describe Serial Experiments Lain and I am surprised to see no mention of this absolute classic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain (spoiler-heavy article for the kind of story where trying to piece reality together is part of the experience)
rrdharan 2y ago
I’m a fan of the ‘95 movie but one funny thing I always notice when rewatching it is how many different Human Computer interfaces exist in the movie’s world. There’re the robot secretaries, humans with extra mechanical fingers similar to the secretaries, three or four different neck and head and maybe eye(?) jacks, and others I can’t remember now. Makes for a fun drinking game.
- imbnwa 2y ago
  I mean how many USB ports do we got right now?

240 points by zdw 3y ago

I really like both the animated series and the movie with Scarlett Johansson. I am well into my 70s, and GITS appeals to my memories of Barberella and Flash Gordon comics.

XorNot 3y ago

Ghost In The Shell suffers from really dragging in the middle. There's a bunch a bunch of sequences which go on just way too long for the total amount of plot in the film, and there's a lot of missing context for the main character's motivation: we just kind of get a couple big exposition dumps, but no real feel for who the Major is or why the core conceit of the plot matters to her. The Stand Alone Complex series, conversely, is amazing.

cjk2 3y ago
Glad to hear that. I am about to get on the SAC wagon.
Malcolmlisk 3y ago
I remember enjoying the episodes who were outside of the central plot from SAC and SAC2. That episode when they explain the past of the sniper character and how he got recruited by the major was amazing and I watched it over and over.
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  It would make a great stand alone movie.
pjc50 3y ago
Now this is a matter of taste, but I love the slow moments where the film just pans over city scenes with no dialogue. Just a little time to breathe and look at the art in the middle of the action. It's a film that posits a bunch of questions about human vs machine and then declines to answer them in favor of letting you think about them.
- chiph 2y ago
  Those periods of "Ma"[0] really make the film for me, and their absence was a big part of of why I didn't like the 2017 Scarlett Johanssen version (I walked out of the theater I was so disappointed). They give you time to think & reflect on the implications of the scene that just ended, and how it will affect the forthcoming actions of the characters. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(negative_space) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(negative_space)
wccrawford 3y ago
I don't agree with you, but it's really sad that you're getting downvoted for having an opinion and explaining it. I'd understand it on Reddit, but this is HN, and it's supposed to be better here.
bullfightonmars 3y ago
I didn’t get SAC back when it was on Adult Swim. Seeing it randomly and out of order it seemed stale, slow, and too dense. But watched in sequence it is a fantastic bit of scifi.
dclowd9901 2y ago
I kind of like that we’re thrown headfirst into this world without a ton of exposition around motivations and whatnot. It feels _a lot_ like Blade Runner that way (my favorite film) — sort of confounding and urgent. And you’re teased with these glances and sprinkles of a very intriguing world. All of this is to say I think the movie is just fantastic and I regularly find new things to love about it on each rewatch.
- ctchocula 2y ago
  > I kind of like that we’re thrown headfirst into this world without a ton of exposition around motivations and whatnot. It feels _a lot_ like Blade Runner that way (my favorite film) — sort of confounding and urgent. I really like this part of fiction and media as well, because it forces you to do some work piecing everything together, so you feel a bit like a detective as well. Way better than superhero movies where you are spoonfed everything. It's a common narrative device found in Phillip K. Dick books, one of which Blade Runner is based off of. I really like the way it builds suspense.

nanna 3y ago

I feel like I haven't seen an anime in years that's been in the same league as Akira or the great Miyazakis (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Totoro). Yes i'd be brutal and include Miyazakis following works in that list, from Howls Moving Castle to The Boy and the Heron. Ive seen lots of incredible animation, sure, but nothing like the cinematic depth. What am I missing? What should an old fart who's becoming convinced things were better in the old days put myself infront of?

austin-cheney 3y ago
My favorite is Patlabor 2. Here is the Japanese cultural explainer (spoiler): https://youtu.be/ybLKmO5Kq5A?si=bzIEK436EeWF_o5s https://youtu.be/ybLKmO5Kq5A?si=bzIEK436EeWF_o5s
- flobosg 3y ago
  I haven’t watched it yet, but reading this article a while ago got me interested: 'Patlabor 2: The Movie' has stunningly realistic aerial combat – https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/realistic-aerial-combat-movie-patlabor-2/ https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/realistic-aerial-combat-m...
- pjc50 3y ago
  I didn't understand why people kept recommending this until I spotted that the director is Mamoru Oshii, director of GitS. It's perfectly reasonable as a standalone film without having seen 1. And it's good in the same ways as GitS; mix of action, political thriller, and lingering artistic set piece.
  - yrro 3y ago
    You'll probably enjoy Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade as well.
cjk2 3y ago
There is good stuff out there. I watched Pantheon and Scavengers Reign recently, both excellent, but not old stable anime. Scavengers Reign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQH8cMpWTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQH8cMpWTU Pantheon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HJ3TSlo5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HJ3TSlo5c

djaouen 3y ago

Ahh, anime's heyday. I remember borrowing Samurai Champloo on VHS from my friend around that time when I was in high school... good times!

duggan 3y ago
Champloo came out in 2004, wasn’t VHS a distant memory by then, or was I just “living in the future”? :) Sure you’re not thinking of Cowboy Bebop?
- djaouen 3y ago
  It might have been. Even then, I remember thinking that it was odd that it came on VHS. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
- pjc50 3y ago
  Could well have been a "fansub" circulating on copied VHS.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  [not the OP] I find it quite amusing what many people (including myself sometimes) have a pretty blurry memory about when we moved from VHS. But I think it mostly contributes on what for some people VHS were a dominant media for quite a while, because they didn't had the means to see the digital media. It's easier to understand what the first [commercially] successful DVD player was PlayStation 2, which became available ~2001. Before that DVDs were quite a costly[0] endeavour. But at the same time people with the access to a computer (and a local 'everything for $15' totally-legit-shop) had the benefits of DivX ;) releases on a plain CD-ROMs, which every home computer had. Some anecdata: I first seen Blade (1998) on VHS, but The Matrix (1999) on DivX rip, yet (I think) Spirited Away (2001) on VHS. I frequented a local VHS rental (because a friend worked there and so it places it up to 2002? 2001?) so I had seen a lot of films on VHS, but again, by 2002 it was a meme how people searching for XXX on DC++ got XXX (2002) instead. [0] https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/your-1st-dvd-player-vs-1st-blu-ray-player-how-much-and-when-did-you-buy.273256/ https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/your-1st-...

bostik 3y ago

I hadn't realised Jin-Roh was from the same creator. And I can see why it wasn't a success: Jin-Roh is dark, properly dystopian, confusing, and unforgiving. But underneath there is a retold story of the little red riding-hood, in the original Grimm fashion. The wolf wins.

GauntletWizard 3y ago
Jin-Roh is but part of Oshii's other magnum opus, The Kerberos Saga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_Saga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerberos_Saga . I haven't read the second half, which wasn't available in english when I first saw Jin Roh, but I've heard that The Red Spectacles and StrayDog are great if you liked it, but hard to find. I should retry that search one of these days.
mmaniac 3y ago
I found Jin-Roh's use of the Red Riding-Hood narrative to be much more subversive than a mere retelling. Both lead characters alternately play the role of red riding-hood and the wolf, luring each other in and betraying each others' trust at differing stages in the story. At the same time, neither truly wants to harm the other, but it's the human society they exist in which compels them to. The last shot of the movie is the Rotkaeppchen storybook lying in tatters in a puddle.
- bostik 2y ago
  Oh, I had missed the bonus context of the last shot. For me it was a way to state the obvious: the hunter comes to the rescue only in fairy tales. In the world of the story, the difference between a wolf and a hunter is smaller than one might think.
slillibri 2y ago
FYI, Masamune Shirow is the creator of Ghost in the Shell. Mamoru Oshii directed the anime adaptation.

imp0cat 3y ago

Oh it's nice to see Animation Obsessive here. Their blog https://animationobsessive.substack.com/ https://animationobsessive.substack.com/ is worthy of a subscription - most of their articles are both informative and very well written.

chambers 3y ago

I rewatched Ghost in the Shell recently and I was struck by how poorly it aged. Its animation holds up but its story felt weaker than I remembered. Like the director reached for something deep, couldn't get ahold of it, and then covered his tracks behind wordy philosophy.

webdoodle 2y ago
I like to watch it with the subtitltes and dubbing. The dubbing is usually so dumbed down as to make it a completely different show.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
maxglute 3y ago
>director reached for something deep, couldn't get ahold of it Translation/writing/dub wasn't very strong at the time, I can see how ppl feel now (and felt at the time) the headiness/philosophizng was filler for robot tanks and augment porn, but it was all there in the source manga by Shirow. IMO reaching for something deep about is what the series is all about, just explored more competently in shows like SAC where they had many hours to deep dwelve into many subjects.
- jajko 3y ago
  To watch some classic in anything but original language is proper insult to the source and always subpar experience. Would you watch say Bicycle thieves with some yeager-speak variant too? I know 0 japanese but never ever watched any of their produce in anything but japanese with eng subs. Even though EN is not my primary language but one I grok easily without subs needed. Sure, people are lazy and have tons of excuses, but they are just that. If you(anybody) couldnt otherwise as a kid, do yourself a favor and re-experience it again in better form.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    But the English subs are the translation. You're going to need to learn Japanese to experience it in the original language.

Shinchy 3y ago

I'm not sure what others are saying, I re-watched Ghost in the Shell again recently and I had forgotten just how brilliant it is. There is something pure about it that you just don't find in modern anime, something that really resonated.

YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
That something is acetate.
- xorbax 3y ago
  This is why I think Akira can't be surpassed. Not just because it was done on acetate, but because of the level of skill and consideration required to animate that way. You can't just undo that brush stroke onto the cel and try something else. As much as technology has democratized the field, I think it also lowers the heights. I desperately hope I'm wrong and just old, but I haven't met someone who puts up something that they think is better. Maybe it's just because we're in the transitory phase - but digital animation has been around for decades at this point. Maybe it's Ikea versus handcrafting, and the shift is in the expected quality rather than the art elevating itself to meet priors.
  - doublepg23 3y ago
    I think the democratization means the heights won't be big-budget corporate things, they'll be on YouTube or Patreon.
    - cedilla 3y ago
      Akira was a big budget corporate thing though. It's technical excellence came from having the budget to employ multiple highly skilled animation leads and hundreds of animators drawing hundreds of thousands of cells.
      - fidotron 3y ago

rekabis 3y ago

The author fails in their understanding of Animé’s history in North America. While certain series such as The White Lion, Astroboy, Space Battleship Yamato (marketed over here as Starblazors) and Captain Harlock did see airtime first, it was Robotech - the Harmony Gold Frankenstein of three completely unrelated Animé series - that kicked off the process in 1984. It was Robotech that threw rocket fuel onto the burning embers of fandom in North America. Akira just helped the process along.

YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
There was very little "animé" in North America. If you prefer your animation with an acute accent, you're better off looking in France.
kagakuninja 3y ago
As a member of the underground anime scene, starting in the late 70s, I have a different perspective. Harmony Gold did nothing to actually promote anime, beyond hyping their own products. Robotech was the English translated anime that happened to be on air in the US when the necessary conditions for the anime explosion were in place. Those conditions were: Affordable VCRs (in the 70s, they cost as much as a small car). The Usenet / internet (for coordinating, sharing information, and creating tape sharing networks). Low cost computer video platforms for subtitling (e.g. Amiga + Video Toaster). In terms of popularity, people forget that Speed Racer, Kimba, etc were broadcast on network television, and had far more impact on popular culture than Robotech, which was syndicated. Captain Harlock ironically what got me interested in anime in the late '70s. It was not widely broadcast in the continental US, until Harmony Gold's despicable hack job which came after Robotech. One source of subtitled anime in the 70s was from Hawaii, which has a significant Japanese population. But to get that required having contacts with one of those very expensive VCRs.
- rekabis 2y ago
  > Harmony Gold did nothing to actually promote anime, beyond hyping their own products. Robotech was the English translated anime that happened to be on air in the US And because it was in syndication, smack-dab in the centre of at least one major TV network that had Saturday morning cartoons, it was in front of _tens of millions_ of young children. That is why I highlight Robotech, instead of all the other series that came before it. Yes, Astro Boy and The White Lion came earlier, but they mostly showed on PBS and in non-standard time slots. I don’t recall them ever showing in the 0800-1100hrs Saturday morning time slots on any regular channel. But Robotech did. Captain Harlock was available in Canada, but only in Québecois, and again - not in a standard time slot. You had to wake up at 0630hrs on Saturday morning to catch it on channel 12, which few kids did. So yeah, I don’t dispute that the other factors you mentioned helped, but it was the time slot on Saturday morning which was the rocket fuel that made all the difference.

BoingBoomTschak 3y ago

Just a notice that all Blu-Rays of the 95 GITS are completely and hopelessly mangled (cropped, blurred and black crushed). The only "good" version is an old HDTV rip that was hand-remastered by Judgment; but with heavy smoothing in the process, a film grain shader to mask this is recommended. BD: http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/BD/02210-bd.png http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/BD... HDTV: http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/Judgment%20v2/%5bJudgment%5d%20Ghost%20in%20the%20Shell%20%5b1CE4C716%5d%2002210.png http://comp.judging.it/content/Koukaku%20Kidoutai/1080p-3/Ju...

SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
That's beyond heartbreaking. Everything is somehow getting worse but I'd held out hope that something universally considered a masterpiece might get better treatment. Do you know if a better release exists in Japan?
- BoingBoomTschak 3y ago
  My wooden peg leg and the parrot on my experienced and still active privateer shoulder tell me no.
  - cjk2 3y ago
    That is the way. Arrr.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Anime piracy and subtitles, even with globalization, is on a different level. Especially with the detail and effort that goes into some fansubs.
      - cjk2 3y ago
        Yeah exactly that. I had a crunchy roll subscription but shitcanned it in the end because the quality of the releases is an order of magnitude better from the pirates.

photochemsyn 3y ago

GITS is highly relevant today, but I can understand why the Hollywood remake gutted the original story, because GITS is a highly subversive work that directly attacks the authoritarian state's bureaucratic power structure. It's also the story of the transformation of a loyal servant of one of the state agencies, Major Kusangi, into an independent rogue agent who abandons that power structure in alliance with some form of synthetic intelligence, Project 2501. What sets it apart from similar rogue spy stories is the heavy emphasis on philosophical concepts - the Ship of Theseus in the context of a cyborg human whose every part has been replaced over time, the nature of self and other in the context of the merger of the Major's identity with that of P2501, the point at which obedience to the authoritarian state is abandoned and the rationale for that choice - all notions that make established power structures uneasy, and which accounts for the atrocious garbled plot line of the Hollywood remake.

rvba 3y ago
They botched the remake since it was done by incompetent people. That was (still is?) the time where Netflix was trying to build a library so they threw random people at random projects. Death Note Remake / live action film was botched too

bellboy_tech 3y ago

GITS is amazing as a design universe. The more you dig into the manga or movies (even the SACs) the deeper you get sucked in to what could be. From the vision of mind interfaces to the dream of mind across the net. It was WAY ahead of it's time and still stands up today. Every crevasse of the original Manga contains deep thought out design on what digital life could become. What constructs we become once we crossed that digital/biological line. Love it. Happy to buy into the sell.

downrightmike 3y ago
If you want a deeper look into the worlds of Anime at the time, I recommend: Anime Architecture : Imagined Worlds and Endless Megacities, Hardcover https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/anime-architecture-imagined-worlds-and-endless-megacities-hardcover https://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/books/anime-architecture-... Its a really cool book
- HenryBemis 2y ago
  I don't usually buy books 5mins after I see their title posted somewhere.. but seeing some of the drawings (and the topic) of the book, it is already on its way to me, and thank you for bringing it up!
- throwaway17_17 2y ago
  In addition to being a bit of a digital hoarder, I have a decent collection of enlarged anime background paintings on the walls at my office. My tastes in subject matter are pretty wide ranging, but I don’t have a specific collection of the 80s anime film megacities paintings. This book seems to fill a gap I didn’t even think I had in what I display. I was super impressed by the price point of this book. All the reviews say the print quality is excellent. $45 for a ~250 page hardcover is a great deal even if you just want it to sit on a coffee table or book shelf. Thanks for the tip, I ordered immediately, and it’s going on the small desk in my office.
  - genuine_smiles 2y ago

hdt91 3y ago

I'm seeing quite a few recommendations for good shows in the comments, under an article about GITS and Mamoru Oshii, but surprisingly no one has brought up the two other fairly well-known (?) works: Angel's Egg and Urusei Yatsura 2. The first one just got the news about a 4k upgrade next year and first time Western release, while the other has few reasons to be a stand-alone movie of the same manga besides the main cast. Both are sometimes incredibly trippy and heady with the hypnotic 90s look, which seem to be much fewer in the modern anime but I haven't really kept up with new stuff these days as well as animation styles certainly evolve over time.

mmaniac 3y ago
I'm a fan of most of Oshii's work, and Angel's Egg is a particular favourite, but it's not hard to see why it's rarely recommended. The film has very little narrative and it leans heavily on visual symbolism.
- kibwen 2y ago
  The best way to sell Angel's Egg to the people predisposed to seeking out anime is to mention its influence on Dark Souls 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wSol7JdG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9wSol7JdG0
  - mmaniac 2y ago
    This comment had the reverse effect on me - Dark Souls 3 has been on my backlog for a while, and I'm now more keen to play it :)
  - AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
    Mentioning that Yoshitaka Amano worked on it might also be a draw for some people.

segmondy 3y ago

I have literally watched this movie 10x easily, and it's my "Continue Watching" menu in Netflix right now. Such a brilliant movie.

a_t48 3y ago
Same. For a while it was my comfort pick for a movie to have on while going to bed.
amatecha 2y ago
It's usually my first thing to watch on a new monitor or projector or whatever device I might want to see how well it shows a film. Another typical "test watch" is Vampire Hunter D. That and GitS are amazing anime films, IMO. Years ago I had a band (electronic/industrial style) and at one show we played, the venue staff were projecting stuff onto the stage and ceiling. I was super happy when I realized they were projecting GitS during my band's performance. Perfect choice! I think I thanked them afterward haha :)

gembeMx 3y ago

[dead]

AI_beffr 3y ago

anime is a completely pointless topic in my opinion. i honestly feel like it has no future because of AI. even if there is something that resembles anime in the future, it will all be drawn and probably written by AI. what is the point of that? and looking back, the only thing that made anime so good was that it was niche. GITS for example, while touching on interesting concepts and being beautifully drawn, doesnt have a very good story. it was niche enough, small enough and nimble enough to touch on cool, ahead-of-their-time concepts that hadnt yet broken through to mainstream. but beyond that, it doesnt really do much. most anime that ive seen is extremely violent, has meandering dis-jointed writing, etc. not of much value to anyone above the age of 16. watching GITS now is even more disappointing because all of the transhumanist, cyberpunk themes that are touched upon arent cool anymore. they are reality now. AI is here and its a real thing that we have to deal with. soon we really will have to deal with the concepts seen in GITS. and its just tired and disappointing because it wont be like a cool anime, it will be horrible and dangerous and disgusting. society will be shattered..

sram1337 3y ago
I don't think most people value the aspects of anime that you are highlighting as highly as you do
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
Reality sucks, got it.

tecleandor 3y ago

Feels weird not finding the name of Masamune Shirow even once in the article (or the comments here, at least the last time I checked)

greenhearth 2y ago
Probably should've been in the first sentence or at least in the opening paragraph of the whole thing.
wodenokoto 3y ago
Why?
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  Just Google him.
- edu 2y ago
  He’s the author of the original manga. Which is as good as the anime, if you haven’t read it I strongly recommend it!
glandium 2y ago
He's mentioned in the comments there.
- tecleandor 2y ago
  Ah! I was searching but didn't see the comments as they open in a different page, at least on mobile. Thanks!

lowbloodsugar 3y ago

Saw it at the theater. What a time to be alive! And then three years later we get The Matrix!

gpderetta 2y ago
Rumour is that the sale pitch[1] for The Matrix was the Wachowskis showing GITS to the producers and saying "We wanna do that for real." (and wow, it was only three year later). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/oct/19/hollywood-ghost-in-the-shell https://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/oct/19/hollywood-ghost...

yieldcrv 2y ago

> That story started in the early ‘90s, in London. A local businessman saw Akira at an art film screening. Exhibit A on why I looooove movie screenings Imaging seeing a bunch of quirky short film misses from amateur producers that at least take initiative, to seeing Akira. in the early 90s. an advanced style in a medium nobody had really explored with a cohesive well thought out message. And you’re like “and this story and director came out of where? Japan?” today that would share similarities to the idea of something wholly unexpected in the entertainment world came out of Iraq, but without any fanfare just an exhibit at a small industry event in your town

jonhohle 2y ago
> an advanced style in a medium nobody had really explored with a cohesive well thought out message. Only of you ignore Miyazaki. Nausicaa and to a lesser extent Castle in the Sky aren’t cyberpunk, but definitely pushed the state of the art and storytelling forward with universally applicable narratives. I’m not saying Akira isn’t good or that the viewing wasn’t serendipitous, but it certainly wasn’t alone in what was happening in Japan at the time.

riffraff 2y ago

> America and Europe saw their first major “anime boom” during the ‘90s. I'm not sure that's true, we had a ton of anime in Europe in the 80s already. Capitan Tsubasa aired in 86 in Italy and 88 in France, and I'm pretty sure we had a lot of Go Nagai stuff before that.

Enydosnes 2y ago
As far as I'm aware, France was a relative outlier in Europe in regards to popularity of Japanese media with it preceding more widespread adoption in popular European culture.
gpderetta 2y ago
Indeed, Mazinger was an household name in Italy even earlier than that.
dleeftink 2y ago
There's also Alfred Jodokus Kwak by Herman van Veen, Akira Miyazaki and Hiroshi Saitō from '89, which was redubbed in many languages. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_J._Kwak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_J._Kwak

baobun 2y ago

90s cyperpunk existential anime produced with an eye for western markets could also describe Serial Experiments Lain and I am surprised to see no mention of this absolute classic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Experiments_Lain (spoiler-heavy article for the kind of story where trying to piece reality together is part of the experience)

rrdharan 2y ago

I’m a fan of the ‘95 movie but one funny thing I always notice when rewatching it is how many different Human Computer interfaces exist in the movie’s world. There’re the robot secretaries, humans with extra mechanical fingers similar to the secretaries, three or four different neck and head and maybe eye(?) jacks, and others I can’t remember now. Makes for a fun drinking game.

imbnwa 2y ago
I mean how many USB ports do we got right now?