4 ms·

I never understood the american obsession with race (well, and sexuality). I live in a small EU country on the edge of the balkans... what the hell should I wr

I never understood the american obsession with race (well, and sexuality). I live in a small EU country on the edge of the balkans... what the hell should I write if I wanted to get hired? I'm white... everyone here is white... but just by living here, I might have a more "diverse" worldview (compared to a white american is massachussets, with enouh knowledge and money to attend MIT) than someone of a different race (also living in massachussets, with enough money and kowledge to attend MIT). But as to "what i've done", I can only put "saw two black people this year, both were tourists, saw a couple of buses of chinese tourists, or maybe japanese, I don't know". Engineering schools should keep to engineering, killer robots won't care about your race, no matter if you're the one building them or the one making the weapons to fight against them.

transcriptase 2y ago
Which sort of goes hand in hand with the idea of white privilege. If I grow up dirt poor, with uneducated parents, in a rural dirt poor region where there wasn’t anyone except other white people in a 100 mile radius for me to be favoured over, apparently I’ve still benefited from some sort of systemic or inherent bias in favour of myself on the basis of race. Which apparently needs to be corrected and puts me at a disadvantage when applying to certain schools or jobs.
- axoltl 2y ago
  The term "white privilege" is a bit of a misnomer. What it's mean to convey is the fact that a white person is much less likely to get passed over for something than a person of color. It doesn't mean an actual privilege, more the lack of a hardship. That doesn't mean one didn't experience hardship, just that it's unlikely to have been due to the color of your skin.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Which may have been true in 1970s, today I get told in emails to pass over White and Asian candidates because we need more diversity. The sheer hubris of putting racism in writing makes me feel like I'm in a topsy turvy 1950s.
    - jimbokun 2y ago
      Yeah, it's especially confusing trying to understand how it's the Asians fault, too.
      - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
        Yep, on one hand, concetration camps in US for japanese people not that long ago, and now discriminated against when applying for college...
    - noisy_boy 2y ago
      It is true in 2024 also, just that you have to choose a location different from US; go to Southeast Asia to see it in action everyday, where everyone is extra nice to white people - sales people are extra polite, people laugh extra hard at everything white people say, the lady at the counter pays first attention to white people among the group of folks waiting and so on. I have heard white people say "I loved the experience, everyone was so nice"... Of course it was, of course they were. To be fair, there are flip sides to this too e.g white folks are more likely to be overcharged, more likely to be subject of scams etc but that's just the other side of the same coin.
      - llm_trw 2y ago
        So in South East Asia they are nice to minorities? That's nice.
  - transcriptase 2y ago
    And so the cosmic scales apparently require that this person be discriminated against, not on the basis of anything they’ve done, or have had done for them, but because of the colour of their skin and what wasn’t done to them. Regardless of all other hardships and lack of opportunity they may have experienced their whole life. I still don’t follow the logic, if you’re claiming there is some to be followed.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      > And so the cosmic scales apparently require that this person be discriminated against [...] because of the colour of their skin and what wasn’t done to them. The scale was already tipped because of race. Is it unfair to try to tip it back? Is there no way at all to reasonably apply pressure? Even if your answer is that it's unfair, it should be easy for you to understand why some people try. And if any attempt to adjust the scale counts as "discrimination", then "discrimination" is not necessarily a dirty word. > not on the basis of anything they’ve done, or have had done for them, [...] Regardless of all other hardships and lack of opportunity they may have experienced their whole life. Well, if you had a way to measure that, it would help a lot. But if you don't have a way to measure it, I feel like disregarding it is probably reasonable. "Don't try to fix problem X, because for some people problem X compensates for problem Y" is a pretty bad reason not to try to fix X. (With problem X being racism and problem Y being the other discrimination this white poor person faced.)
- jimbokun 2y ago
  To steel man the "white privilege" argument, would be to say a black person growing up equally poor as you, would still be at a disadvantage to you in terms of how they would be treated. (And yes, that's ironic if you are then discriminated against specifically due to the assumption you are inherently privileged.)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
eapressoandcats 2y ago
The American obsession with race is deeply rooted in historically having a large, enslaved underclass that was kept down using racial justifications and against which there is still measurable bias across all areas of life (hiring, police stops, criminal sentencing, etc.) It’s not unique to America but it is a major differentiator from other countries. A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extremely racist but don’t notice it because it doesn’t hugely impact day to day life. A mot-so-malicious example of this is that when my brother went to Korea to teach English, the parents wanted him (a white man) instead of the Asian American who was born in America and also going to the same Ivy League school. Obviously there are much less fun examples of racism but that one was… interesting. In the US that level of open racial preference would have been considered socially unacceptable, especially among the upper middle class college set.
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  The US has required an "immigrant class" since before and after slavery ended. People forget that we didn't like the Germans, Irish, Italians, Polish, etc At one point in the South there were jobs only Irish were hired to do bc they were very dangerous and slaves were too valuable to expend on that labor. Immigrants are necessary for our economy and have been since the beginning. This isn't a great truth but it's the truth.
  - eapressoandcats 2y ago
    Yes but Black people in the US have been historically treated _worse_ than immigrants, which is entirely unnecessary and leads to a lot of efforts to fix the results of previous subjugation.
- Seattle3503 2y ago
  > A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extremely racist but don’t notice it because it doesn’t hugely impact day to day life It is 10 years old, but WaPo created a map of how people responded to a question about someone of another race being their neighbor. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15... to add to what you said, racism probably doesn't impact anyone they know either. In that sense maybe it isn't a "problem" in homogeneous countries, but it does seem like a powder-key just waiting for the fuse to be lit. Particularly in an increasingly global world.
Goldstein1984 2y ago
[flagged]
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  I have no idea what this has to do with socialism.... I was born in a socialist state, and we were very friendly with huge parts of africa and asia (we were even "the leaders" of the third world (by the proper definition of the third world)).
SpaceManNabs 2y ago
> killer robots won't care about your race that is not necessarily true... while i agree with most of your sentiment, this statement is specifically why I believe everyone is racist, and nobody knows how racist they are if they only live in a homogeneous place. "this" being not understanding that being race-blind also being blind to correcting disparate treatment. Regardless, DEI went off too far in the track of identity politics instead of correcting all forms of socioeconomic disparity so wtv. I am not surprised that you could not see the best argument in all the noise and the chaos.
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  But wouldn't race-blindness treat everyone the same? For eg. college acceptance, in my country, there is no was to prefer any kind of race, because colleges don't even see the candidates before they're accepted (with some few exceptions), and things like american "affirmative action" would be seen as directly racist.
  - SpaceManNabs 2y ago
    that would require assuming everyone is race blind. That isnt the case and we should stop pretending it is. And people still find ways to infer race.
jimbob45 2y ago
[flagged]

transcriptase 2y ago

Which sort of goes hand in hand with the idea of white privilege. If I grow up dirt poor, with uneducated parents, in a rural dirt poor region where there wasn’t anyone except other white people in a 100 mile radius for me to be favoured over, apparently I’ve still benefited from some sort of systemic or inherent bias in favour of myself on the basis of race. Which apparently needs to be corrected and puts me at a disadvantage when applying to certain schools or jobs.

axoltl 2y ago
The term "white privilege" is a bit of a misnomer. What it's mean to convey is the fact that a white person is much less likely to get passed over for something than a person of color. It doesn't mean an actual privilege, more the lack of a hardship. That doesn't mean one didn't experience hardship, just that it's unlikely to have been due to the color of your skin.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Which may have been true in 1970s, today I get told in emails to pass over White and Asian candidates because we need more diversity. The sheer hubris of putting racism in writing makes me feel like I'm in a topsy turvy 1950s.
  - jimbokun 2y ago
    Yeah, it's especially confusing trying to understand how it's the Asians fault, too.
    - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
      Yep, on one hand, concetration camps in US for japanese people not that long ago, and now discriminated against when applying for college...
  - noisy_boy 2y ago
    It is true in 2024 also, just that you have to choose a location different from US; go to Southeast Asia to see it in action everyday, where everyone is extra nice to white people - sales people are extra polite, people laugh extra hard at everything white people say, the lady at the counter pays first attention to white people among the group of folks waiting and so on. I have heard white people say "I loved the experience, everyone was so nice"... Of course it was, of course they were. To be fair, there are flip sides to this too e.g white folks are more likely to be overcharged, more likely to be subject of scams etc but that's just the other side of the same coin.
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      So in South East Asia they are nice to minorities? That's nice.
- transcriptase 2y ago
  And so the cosmic scales apparently require that this person be discriminated against, not on the basis of anything they’ve done, or have had done for them, but because of the colour of their skin and what wasn’t done to them. Regardless of all other hardships and lack of opportunity they may have experienced their whole life. I still don’t follow the logic, if you’re claiming there is some to be followed.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > And so the cosmic scales apparently require that this person be discriminated against [...] because of the colour of their skin and what wasn’t done to them. The scale was already tipped because of race. Is it unfair to try to tip it back? Is there no way at all to reasonably apply pressure? Even if your answer is that it's unfair, it should be easy for you to understand why some people try. And if any attempt to adjust the scale counts as "discrimination", then "discrimination" is not necessarily a dirty word. > not on the basis of anything they’ve done, or have had done for them, [...] Regardless of all other hardships and lack of opportunity they may have experienced their whole life. Well, if you had a way to measure that, it would help a lot. But if you don't have a way to measure it, I feel like disregarding it is probably reasonable. "Don't try to fix problem X, because for some people problem X compensates for problem Y" is a pretty bad reason not to try to fix X. (With problem X being racism and problem Y being the other discrimination this white poor person faced.)
jimbokun 2y ago
To steel man the "white privilege" argument, would be to say a black person growing up equally poor as you, would still be at a disadvantage to you in terms of how they would be treated. (And yes, that's ironic if you are then discriminated against specifically due to the assumption you are inherently privileged.)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

eapressoandcats 2y ago

The American obsession with race is deeply rooted in historically having a large, enslaved underclass that was kept down using racial justifications and against which there is still measurable bias across all areas of life (hiring, police stops, criminal sentencing, etc.) It’s not unique to America but it is a major differentiator from other countries. A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extremely racist but don’t notice it because it doesn’t hugely impact day to day life. A mot-so-malicious example of this is that when my brother went to Korea to teach English, the parents wanted him (a white man) instead of the Asian American who was born in America and also going to the same Ivy League school. Obviously there are much less fun examples of racism but that one was… interesting. In the US that level of open racial preference would have been considered socially unacceptable, especially among the upper middle class college set.

NemoNobody 2y ago
The US has required an "immigrant class" since before and after slavery ended. People forget that we didn't like the Germans, Irish, Italians, Polish, etc At one point in the South there were jobs only Irish were hired to do bc they were very dangerous and slaves were too valuable to expend on that labor. Immigrants are necessary for our economy and have been since the beginning. This isn't a great truth but it's the truth.
- eapressoandcats 2y ago
  Yes but Black people in the US have been historically treated _worse_ than immigrants, which is entirely unnecessary and leads to a lot of efforts to fix the results of previous subjugation.
Seattle3503 2y ago
> A key thing to note is that many homogeneous countries are extremely racist but don’t notice it because it doesn’t hugely impact day to day life It is 10 years old, but WaPo created a map of how people responded to a question about someone of another race being their neighbor. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15... to add to what you said, racism probably doesn't impact anyone they know either. In that sense maybe it isn't a "problem" in homogeneous countries, but it does seem like a powder-key just waiting for the fuse to be lit. Particularly in an increasingly global world.

Goldstein1984 2y ago

[flagged]

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
I have no idea what this has to do with socialism.... I was born in a socialist state, and we were very friendly with huge parts of africa and asia (we were even "the leaders" of the third world (by the proper definition of the third world)).

SpaceManNabs 2y ago

> killer robots won't care about your race that is not necessarily true... while i agree with most of your sentiment, this statement is specifically why I believe everyone is racist, and nobody knows how racist they are if they only live in a homogeneous place. "this" being not understanding that being race-blind also being blind to correcting disparate treatment. Regardless, DEI went off too far in the track of identity politics instead of correcting all forms of socioeconomic disparity so wtv. I am not surprised that you could not see the best argument in all the noise and the chaos.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
But wouldn't race-blindness treat everyone the same? For eg. college acceptance, in my country, there is no was to prefer any kind of race, because colleges don't even see the candidates before they're accepted (with some few exceptions), and things like american "affirmative action" would be seen as directly racist.
- SpaceManNabs 2y ago
  that would require assuming everyone is race blind. That isnt the case and we should stop pretending it is. And people still find ways to infer race.

jimbob45 2y ago

[flagged]