5 ms·

DEI is a strange issue in that nearly everybody agrees that it's a good target to aim for yet any action taken to get there is discrimination. I frankly see it

DEI is a strange issue in that nearly everybody agrees that it's a good target to aim for yet any action taken to get there is discrimination. I frankly see it as a cheap shortcut that some very privileged people want to take to try to wash away the sins of our racist past, not to help people, but to make ourselves feel better- or attempt to.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
[flagged]
zarathustreal 3y ago
I think the modern-day conflation of the philosophical notion of diversity with “diversity of skin color” / “racial diversity” is actually harmful. When we speak of diversity today we often imply a sort of supposed-deserved reparations toward the “minorities.” Obviously there are so many incorrect aspects of these assumptions, but many people in power, perhaps all, have accumulated guilt that needs an outlet. Diversity, the platonic form, is about diversity of thought, opinion, and experience. It is about improving our ability as a group to solve the problems we face by introducing alternative perspectives and viewpoints. It has nothing to do with race or gender necessarily but demand for diversity greatly outweighs the supply and as with all measured things, measuring the number of “diverse” hires has ceased to be a meaningful metric. Granted, it never was a meaningful metric as such, but it has become actively harmful in modern day.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > think the modern-day conflation of the philosophical notion of diversity with “diversity of skin color” / “racial diversity” is actually harmful. I absolutely agree with this. To use myself as an example: as a Bangladeshi who grew up in the American south, I bring a super diverse viewpoint to a group of say white new englanders. But why does that matter in a professional setting? I’d love to hear someone precisely articulate how they think I’d behave differently from a white new englander in the same position, and why that “diversity” would make the team “stronger.”
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    When it comes to optimizing a sorting algorithm for some hardware, it probably doesn't matter. Now suppose you're making a user interface design choice. It would be good to have someone who knows how users from a different subculture would interpret it. But things like that often have more to do with culture/geography than race. Someone from Mississippi will have a much different perspective than someone from Massachusetts, even if they're the same race. And a larger difference in perspective than two people who grew up across the street from each other, even if they're different races. But that doesn't show up in the group photo for the brochure.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Is there evidence that Americans of different ethnicities interpret user interface features differently? If not, isn’t it concerning that in the year 2024 we casually assume that these sorts of differences exist? Isn’t that an example of DEI thinking accentuating the notion of differences? It seems like a new take on this: https://youtu.be/E8PBrhFN35c?si=90DSnwgHubAvJwr8 https://youtu.be/E8PBrhFN35c?si=90DSnwgHubAvJwr8
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Cultural differences exist. For example, colors have different meanings in different cultures: https://blog.grio.com/2020/06/uxui-design-across-cultures-usa-japan.html https://blog.grio.com/2020/06/uxui-design-across-cultures-us... Ethnicity is then being used as a proxy for culture, even though it's a bad one, because it's a visible one. It's basically starting from the premise that cultural diversity is valuable and then applying Goodhart's Law to the thing most easily measured. Whereas traditional racism is more like starting from the premise that cultural homogeneity is valuable and then applying Goodhart's Law to the thing most easily measured. It's applying the same fallacy to the opposite premise, which is an error regardless of which premise is correct.
        SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
        UI colors can be racist? This is ideological tea-leaf reading.
- metabagel 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - zarathustreal 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - kanbara 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    Only around 20% of people killed by police are black. And obviously not all of those are “murder”—some are clearly justified.
quandrum 3y ago
I think DEI as implemented is worse than this. It’s a calculated, prepared defense against the possibility of future bigoted behavior. Corporate America (which increasingly includes universities whose primary business is endowment investment) don’t just want to wash away our past, they want to ensure they can keep operating business as usual. DEI is insurance. Yeah the bad thing may happen but we paid for it before hand so we are insulated against further repercussions.
AdrianB1 3y ago
DEI exists in countries with no racist past. Does it make it aby better? Also DEI exists in places that were historically very diverse, like the Balkans (a mix of ethnic, culture and religions) and it did not help, actually, because it is highlighting the differences that we worked for hundreds of years to integrate. Fortunately there was no significant impact around here as people were wise enough.
- lupire 3y ago
  [flagged]
oefrha 3y ago
> nearly everybody agrees that it's a good target to aim for You mean nearly everybody agrees in your circle, because you can easily find strong opposition if you bother to look. And that’s after making saying the opposite out loud a career-ending offense in lots of places, kinda hard to not agree with it if you want to remain employable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

[flagged]

zarathustreal 3y ago

I think the modern-day conflation of the philosophical notion of diversity with “diversity of skin color” / “racial diversity” is actually harmful. When we speak of diversity today we often imply a sort of supposed-deserved reparations toward the “minorities.” Obviously there are so many incorrect aspects of these assumptions, but many people in power, perhaps all, have accumulated guilt that needs an outlet. Diversity, the platonic form, is about diversity of thought, opinion, and experience. It is about improving our ability as a group to solve the problems we face by introducing alternative perspectives and viewpoints. It has nothing to do with race or gender necessarily but demand for diversity greatly outweighs the supply and as with all measured things, measuring the number of “diverse” hires has ceased to be a meaningful metric. Granted, it never was a meaningful metric as such, but it has become actively harmful in modern day.

rayiner 3y ago
> think the modern-day conflation of the philosophical notion of diversity with “diversity of skin color” / “racial diversity” is actually harmful. I absolutely agree with this. To use myself as an example: as a Bangladeshi who grew up in the American south, I bring a super diverse viewpoint to a group of say white new englanders. But why does that matter in a professional setting? I’d love to hear someone precisely articulate how they think I’d behave differently from a white new englander in the same position, and why that “diversity” would make the team “stronger.”
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  When it comes to optimizing a sorting algorithm for some hardware, it probably doesn't matter. Now suppose you're making a user interface design choice. It would be good to have someone who knows how users from a different subculture would interpret it. But things like that often have more to do with culture/geography than race. Someone from Mississippi will have a much different perspective than someone from Massachusetts, even if they're the same race. And a larger difference in perspective than two people who grew up across the street from each other, even if they're different races. But that doesn't show up in the group photo for the brochure.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Is there evidence that Americans of different ethnicities interpret user interface features differently? If not, isn’t it concerning that in the year 2024 we casually assume that these sorts of differences exist? Isn’t that an example of DEI thinking accentuating the notion of differences? It seems like a new take on this: https://youtu.be/E8PBrhFN35c?si=90DSnwgHubAvJwr8 https://youtu.be/E8PBrhFN35c?si=90DSnwgHubAvJwr8
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Cultural differences exist. For example, colors have different meanings in different cultures: https://blog.grio.com/2020/06/uxui-design-across-cultures-usa-japan.html https://blog.grio.com/2020/06/uxui-design-across-cultures-us... Ethnicity is then being used as a proxy for culture, even though it's a bad one, because it's a visible one. It's basically starting from the premise that cultural diversity is valuable and then applying Goodhart's Law to the thing most easily measured. Whereas traditional racism is more like starting from the premise that cultural homogeneity is valuable and then applying Goodhart's Law to the thing most easily measured. It's applying the same fallacy to the opposite premise, which is an error regardless of which premise is correct.
      - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
        UI colors can be racist? This is ideological tea-leaf reading.
metabagel 3y ago
[flagged]
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - kanbara 3y ago
    [flagged]
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  Only around 20% of people killed by police are black. And obviously not all of those are “murder”—some are clearly justified.

quandrum 3y ago

I think DEI as implemented is worse than this. It’s a calculated, prepared defense against the possibility of future bigoted behavior. Corporate America (which increasingly includes universities whose primary business is endowment investment) don’t just want to wash away our past, they want to ensure they can keep operating business as usual. DEI is insurance. Yeah the bad thing may happen but we paid for it before hand so we are insulated against further repercussions.

AdrianB1 3y ago

DEI exists in countries with no racist past. Does it make it aby better? Also DEI exists in places that were historically very diverse, like the Balkans (a mix of ethnic, culture and religions) and it did not help, actually, because it is highlighting the differences that we worked for hundreds of years to integrate. Fortunately there was no significant impact around here as people were wise enough.

lupire 3y ago
[flagged]

oefrha 3y ago

> nearly everybody agrees that it's a good target to aim for You mean nearly everybody agrees in your circle, because you can easily find strong opposition if you bother to look. And that’s after making saying the opposite out loud a career-ending offense in lots of places, kinda hard to not agree with it if you want to remain employable.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]