7 ms·

Interview with Marian Rejewski, the first person to crack Enigma (1974) [video]

205 points by chmaynard 2y ago

dang 2y ago
Anybody know the year of the interview?
- rvnx 2y ago
  According to: https://web.archive.org/web/20070901043355/http://ww2.tvp.pl/2739,20050927249915.strona https://web.archive.org/web/20070901043355/http://ww2.tvp.pl...: "The world learned the truth about the breaking of Enigma and the role of Poles only in 1973", so the interview is after that moment. On 1973-09-23 he disclosed his identity to journalists: https://marian-rejewski.pl/pol-wieku-temu-rejewski-ujawnil-sie-jako-osoba-ktora-rozszyfrowala-enigme/ https://marian-rejewski.pl/pol-wieku-temu-rejewski-ujawnil-s... so the interview was very very likely filmed after 1973-09-23. + this is supported by his physical appearance. It could be around 1974 (near the peak of the public popularity of the decryption of Enigma). The video interview was published by TVP, so maybe in their programmes of end of 1973 or 1974 there may be such info. There is also a known interview in 1978: https://www.globalspec.com/reference/62853/203279/a-conversation-with-marian-rejewski https://www.globalspec.com/reference/62853/203279/a-conversa... So most likely 1974 (or very close to that). Possibly more info here: https://marian-rejewski.pl/kalendarium-2/ https://marian-rejewski.pl/kalendarium-2/
  - dang 2y ago
    Ok thanks! let's go with 1974 and maybe someone else can refine it.
ggaughan 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski
triyambakam 2y ago
> For two decades he remained silent about his prewar and wartime work so as to avoid the attention of Poland's Soviet-dominated government [1] Why would he want to hide that fact from the Soviets? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski
- mwbajor 2y ago
  Because they would assume he has American and British friends that he still might talk to.
- mbarti 2y ago
  Also because Poland was under Russian de facto occupation 1945-1989 and the Russians mass murdered any possible threats to their power (intellectuals, poets, professors, former army officers - 100s of thousands sent to labour/ death camps in Siberia, never to return).
  - 48864w6ui 2y ago
    Anyone know why the Russian Formalists got the sparkling repressive power of the state? I had thought they were expressly apolitical, but maybe Stalin was paranoid?
    - throwaway74354 2y ago
      wiki article on the subject isn't bad. 1) Formalism was called Bourgeois Formalism by the state critics. Elitist art, opposite of what would become Socialist Realism. 2) If you click the names at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_formalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_formalism , some of the biographies will lead you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan . Being a Jew in the USSR was an additional risk. 3) Slightly later in history, but typical use of formalism-as-a-prejorative : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhdanov_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhdanov_Doctrine tldr: young authoritarian states need enemies. Both internal and external. Repression of any form of dissent is a way to unite (or scare into submission) the masses. See also: "degenerative art" in Germany. Also being apolitical is a political statement. There's a good timeline of the 20s in Russian: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B1%D0%B0_%D1%81_%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BC https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B1...
mbarti 2y ago
So the Polish intelligence selected 3 smartest mathematicians in 1929 and assigned them to the task of understanding the German encryptions. The team (Rejewski) had a breakthrough in 1932 and managed to break the Enigma codes. By 1939 they've broken many subsequent versions of the constantly upgraded ciphers. In 1939 they gave the British: a working Enigma machine, the broken encryption, a full description of how the encryption works, how to use a machine to speed up the process (the "bomba" appliance), and what automation is needed for the following versions. The British (Turing et al) then contributed a machine-based automation which allowed to break the following upgrades to the Enigma ciphers, which would be impractical to manual calculations. As a side note, the Polish codebreaking bureau started with a breakthrough around 1917, when some smart soldiers managed to break Bolshevik radio communication ciphers, which allowed Poland to stop the Russian revolution's expansion by 1920 (the decisive Battle of Warsaw).
- tialaramex 2y ago
  There is a small memorial (to the Poles) at Bletchley Park. I went there on purpose once to see it, and unfortunately I didn't have time to go find it again when I was there earlier this year, but it's a memorial so they won't have removed it. The (recreation of the) machine for breaking wartime Enigma is now in the Computer History museum, rather than the main Bletchley Park museum (they're on the same site but open on different days - check before travelling!), which is slightly incongruous as it's just not a computer. The museum also has several machines which are each arguably the first computer or an early computer (it depends on what in your opinion distinguishes a computer and how hard you're willing to squint at your definition) including (again a reconstruction of) Colossus, which was built for Bletchley to attack the actual interesting cryptography of the war, Lorenz - not Engima and W.I.T.C.H (the Harwell computer) but the choice to put the reconstructed Bombe in that museum is a bit weird.
  - antman 2y ago
    Polish memorial was in Bletchley Park when I visited in 2019 under some trees: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Mot8nCCvS3e6r9SA?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Mot8nCCvS3e6r9SA?g_st=ic
hermitcrab 2y ago
>which the British rarely, if ever, gave proper credit to Poland I'm not sure that is fair. The Polish mathematicians certainly get credit at the Bletchley museum.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- p_l 2y ago
  A lot of material in Bletchley museum could be considered to be bottom-up effort of people either directly involved, related, or passionate about the topics. Which is a completely separate thing from government direction, especially considering how Attlee government resulted in British military commanders leaning on or outright breaking the law to help polish and other central european soldiers who served on western front when the official guidance was "get rid of them and who cares if NKVD will murder them".
- astrodust 2y ago
  Credit was on display down in the cellar in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'.
  - hermitcrab 2y ago
    I assume you haven't been there.
    - astrodust 2y ago
      I assume you haven't read nearly enough Douglas Adams.
      - hermitcrab 2y ago
        I have, but it was a long time ago, so I missed the reference.
RachelF 2y ago
Probably the best summary of the breaking of Enigma and Lorentz is the 1977 BBC series "Most Secret War". Watch the "Still secret" episode, it is on Youtube. I've seen and read a lot of stories about it, this is by far the best.
- effie 2y ago
  Thanks for the reference. The BBC series is actually called "The Secret War": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series) There is also a related book "Most Secret War": https://archive.org/details/mostsecretwar0000jone_z9k2 https://archive.org/details/mostsecretwar0000jone_z9k2
  - RachelF 2y ago
    Thanks for the correction in the name. The book accompanying the TV series is also brilliant: https://archive.org/details/secretwar0000john https://archive.org/details/secretwar0000john It goes into more detail about many things that didn't make it into the TV series. RV Jones' book is great, if you enjoyed it, his follow up book, "Reflections on Intelligence", covers a lot of secrets that he couldn't mention at the time of publishing his original book.
    - willvarfar 2y ago
      thx I had read the Most Secret War book, but hadn't realised he had published others! Looking forward to devouring them. A quick googling lead me down a path that found out that the CIA has an award in his honour! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._V._Jones_Intelligence_Award https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._V._Jones_Intelligence_Award
  - 7373737373 2y ago
    For anyone else searching for the episode: https://youtu.be/GJCF-Ufapu8?t=14843 https://youtu.be/GJCF-Ufapu8?t=14843
- robinzfc 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Cosi1125 2y ago
I can't recommend the book X, Y & Z enough. Written by Dermot Turing (Alan's nephew), it's a fascinating story, almost like a spy novel.

205 points by chmaynard 2y ago

dang 2y ago

Anybody know the year of the interview?

rvnx 2y ago
According to: https://web.archive.org/web/20070901043355/http://ww2.tvp.pl/2739,20050927249915.strona https://web.archive.org/web/20070901043355/http://ww2.tvp.pl...: "The world learned the truth about the breaking of Enigma and the role of Poles only in 1973", so the interview is after that moment. On 1973-09-23 he disclosed his identity to journalists: https://marian-rejewski.pl/pol-wieku-temu-rejewski-ujawnil-sie-jako-osoba-ktora-rozszyfrowala-enigme/ https://marian-rejewski.pl/pol-wieku-temu-rejewski-ujawnil-s... so the interview was very very likely filmed after 1973-09-23. + this is supported by his physical appearance. It could be around 1974 (near the peak of the public popularity of the decryption of Enigma). The video interview was published by TVP, so maybe in their programmes of end of 1973 or 1974 there may be such info. There is also a known interview in 1978: https://www.globalspec.com/reference/62853/203279/a-conversation-with-marian-rejewski https://www.globalspec.com/reference/62853/203279/a-conversa... So most likely 1974 (or very close to that). Possibly more info here: https://marian-rejewski.pl/kalendarium-2/ https://marian-rejewski.pl/kalendarium-2/
- dang 2y ago
  Ok thanks! let's go with 1974 and maybe someone else can refine it.

ggaughan 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski

triyambakam 2y ago

> For two decades he remained silent about his prewar and wartime work so as to avoid the attention of Poland's Soviet-dominated government [1] Why would he want to hide that fact from the Soviets? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Rejewski

mwbajor 2y ago
Because they would assume he has American and British friends that he still might talk to.
mbarti 2y ago
Also because Poland was under Russian de facto occupation 1945-1989 and the Russians mass murdered any possible threats to their power (intellectuals, poets, professors, former army officers - 100s of thousands sent to labour/ death camps in Siberia, never to return).
- 48864w6ui 2y ago
  Anyone know why the Russian Formalists got the sparkling repressive power of the state? I had thought they were expressly apolitical, but maybe Stalin was paranoid?
  - throwaway74354 2y ago
    wiki article on the subject isn't bad. 1) Formalism was called Bourgeois Formalism by the state critics. Elitist art, opposite of what would become Socialist Realism. 2) If you click the names at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_formalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_formalism , some of the biographies will lead you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootless_cosmopolitan . Being a Jew in the USSR was an additional risk. 3) Slightly later in history, but typical use of formalism-as-a-prejorative : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhdanov_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhdanov_Doctrine tldr: young authoritarian states need enemies. Both internal and external. Repression of any form of dissent is a way to unite (or scare into submission) the masses. See also: "degenerative art" in Germany. Also being apolitical is a political statement. There's a good timeline of the 20s in Russian: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B1%D0%B0_%D1%81_%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BC https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B1...

mbarti 2y ago

So the Polish intelligence selected 3 smartest mathematicians in 1929 and assigned them to the task of understanding the German encryptions. The team (Rejewski) had a breakthrough in 1932 and managed to break the Enigma codes. By 1939 they've broken many subsequent versions of the constantly upgraded ciphers. In 1939 they gave the British: a working Enigma machine, the broken encryption, a full description of how the encryption works, how to use a machine to speed up the process (the "bomba" appliance), and what automation is needed for the following versions. The British (Turing et al) then contributed a machine-based automation which allowed to break the following upgrades to the Enigma ciphers, which would be impractical to manual calculations. As a side note, the Polish codebreaking bureau started with a breakthrough around 1917, when some smart soldiers managed to break Bolshevik radio communication ciphers, which allowed Poland to stop the Russian revolution's expansion by 1920 (the decisive Battle of Warsaw).

tialaramex 2y ago
There is a small memorial (to the Poles) at Bletchley Park. I went there on purpose once to see it, and unfortunately I didn't have time to go find it again when I was there earlier this year, but it's a memorial so they won't have removed it. The (recreation of the) machine for breaking wartime Enigma is now in the Computer History museum, rather than the main Bletchley Park museum (they're on the same site but open on different days - check before travelling!), which is slightly incongruous as it's just not a computer. The museum also has several machines which are each arguably the first computer or an early computer (it depends on what in your opinion distinguishes a computer and how hard you're willing to squint at your definition) including (again a reconstruction of) Colossus, which was built for Bletchley to attack the actual interesting cryptography of the war, Lorenz - not Engima and W.I.T.C.H (the Harwell computer) but the choice to put the reconstructed Bombe in that museum is a bit weird.
- antman 2y ago
  Polish memorial was in Bletchley Park when I visited in 2019 under some trees: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Mot8nCCvS3e6r9SA?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Mot8nCCvS3e6r9SA?g_st=ic

hermitcrab 2y ago

>which the British rarely, if ever, gave proper credit to Poland I'm not sure that is fair. The Polish mathematicians certainly get credit at the Bletchley museum.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
p_l 2y ago
A lot of material in Bletchley museum could be considered to be bottom-up effort of people either directly involved, related, or passionate about the topics. Which is a completely separate thing from government direction, especially considering how Attlee government resulted in British military commanders leaning on or outright breaking the law to help polish and other central european soldiers who served on western front when the official guidance was "get rid of them and who cares if NKVD will murder them".
astrodust 2y ago
Credit was on display down in the cellar in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'.
- hermitcrab 2y ago
  I assume you haven't been there.
  - astrodust 2y ago
    I assume you haven't read nearly enough Douglas Adams.
    - hermitcrab 2y ago
      I have, but it was a long time ago, so I missed the reference.

RachelF 2y ago

Probably the best summary of the breaking of Enigma and Lorentz is the 1977 BBC series "Most Secret War". Watch the "Still secret" episode, it is on Youtube. I've seen and read a lot of stories about it, this is by far the best.

effie 2y ago
Thanks for the reference. The BBC series is actually called "The Secret War": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_War_(TV_series) There is also a related book "Most Secret War": https://archive.org/details/mostsecretwar0000jone_z9k2 https://archive.org/details/mostsecretwar0000jone_z9k2
- RachelF 2y ago
  Thanks for the correction in the name. The book accompanying the TV series is also brilliant: https://archive.org/details/secretwar0000john https://archive.org/details/secretwar0000john It goes into more detail about many things that didn't make it into the TV series. RV Jones' book is great, if you enjoyed it, his follow up book, "Reflections on Intelligence", covers a lot of secrets that he couldn't mention at the time of publishing his original book.
  - willvarfar 2y ago
    thx I had read the Most Secret War book, but hadn't realised he had published others! Looking forward to devouring them. A quick googling lead me down a path that found out that the CIA has an award in his honour! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._V._Jones_Intelligence_Award https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._V._Jones_Intelligence_Award
- 7373737373 2y ago
  For anyone else searching for the episode: https://youtu.be/GJCF-Ufapu8?t=14843 https://youtu.be/GJCF-Ufapu8?t=14843
robinzfc 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Cosi1125 2y ago

I can't recommend the book X, Y & Z enough. Written by Dermot Turing (Alan's nephew), it's a fascinating story, almost like a spy novel.