5 ms·

So this decision hinges on construing his statement as a threat. If anything makes the consortium trying to get rid of the NLRB look right, this is it.

tw04 2y ago
Which it was. He lied about a union taking away employees “empowerment”, and got smacked down by a judge for doing so. If anything it’s a reminder of exactly why unions are needed more than ever. Amazon of all companies is known to treat their employees like disposable cogs.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Have you ever worked in a union in the US? Some absolutely do take away employee empowerment. I worked a number of blue collar jobs earlier in life, and have many stories. I worked as an auto parts delivery driver, and one day I delivered some parts to a machine shop. As I started opening the front door, I could hear a blaring high-pitch wining noise coming from the shop area. I got to the office and there were 4 guys just sitting with earplugs in. I asked the what was going on, and they told me that one of the machines had broken but they weren't allowed to turn off the power switch because of union rules. They had to wait until the proper union guy showed up to turn off the switch. And no, this wasn't some super special switch, it was just a 50 amp breaker. I think it's pretty clear they lost some empowerment. I worked as an aircraft refueler in a climate that during fall would get fairly cold in the morning (20 deg F) and warm in the day (70+ deg F). One of our trucks had sensitive brakes that would often need a quarter-turn on a small screw that controlled airflow once the temperature went up (or down at night). It was trivial to do, but I wasn't allowed to even touch it because of union rules taht specified that only the mechanics union could "perform maintenance on the vehicles." So I routinely had to sit on the ramp for hours in the middle of the day waiting for maintenance to drive their truck out and turn the screw. I once suggested to our manager that we should schedule daily maintenance around noon each day since that is around when it usually stopped working, and union rules had an enumerated list of valid "scheduled maintenance" work that could be done, and that wasn't on the list, so he was powerless to do anything about it. I'm sure it didn't hurt that "unscheduled maintenance" cost us more than scheduled. I've heard plenty more stories from friends as well. Our local plumbers union was apprently quite something. They had rules around seniority that basically fucked over everyone with less than 10 years experience and made for a sweet life for everyone over. People worked their asses off for the worst jobs with inferior pay on the hope and dream for their turn at the top end of the pyramid some day when they got their turn to sit on top and exploit the people on the bottom. I'm not anti-union (some situations absolutely need unions to prevent extreme exploitation), but I am anti-blanket-pro-union. Some unions are really trash and should not exist. So yeah, if you're going to say that he "lied" then I think you need to explain what evidence you have that he knew what he said was not true. If he has any experience with unions, there's a good chance he has specific situations in mind.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    My amateur take here is, saying that something is a possibility, however remote, is different from "if you vote this way, this will happen to you" said by people with the power and motivation to make it happen to you if you vote that way. Would we expect the same deference given to a mob boss issuing thinly-veiled threats to witnesses? After all, it's not impossible that an accident will totally randomly happen to the witness or their loved ones that prevents them from testifying. The boss is just sayin' there's data that shows accidents sometimes happen to people who testify, that's all.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Yeah that's fair. CEOs being human, it seems unreasonable to expect them to never have opinions, but given the power dynamics/differential they absolutely must be held to a very high standard. This comment didn't feel at all like a threat to me given my personal experience (it felt like a blatant statement of fact), so while I don't agree that this broke the law, I do agree it isn't something he should have said and he needs to do better. Though personally, I'd much rather know my CEOs real opinion on things, because whether they say it out loud or not they still believe it. I'd rather know where people stand than have to guess/assume.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        I wouldn't have minded if he had issued an opinion that the union _might_ do something to members, rather than the leader of the company saying bad stuff will definitely happen to people who side against the company. After all, he has more motivation and opportunity than anyone else to follow through on that credible threat. Otherwise, is the mob boss in my example just expressing an opinion, too?
  - busterarm 2y ago
    I've been in three different unions and posted similar about my experiences in the past and am usually downvoted to hell for it because of peoples' ideological alignment not allowing them to consider opposing experiences/viewpoints as reasonable.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > Amazon of all companies is known to treat their employees like disposable cogs. Amazon in my area has literally ran media ads (not paraphrasing, direct quotes): "Need a job? Can pass a background check? No interview, start as soon as tomorrow."
  - oefrha 2y ago
    Duh, it’s unskilled labor and not customer-facing, what do you expect? A coding interview? Culture fit assessment?
    - drewcoo 2y ago
      Culture fit assessment would make sense, actually, if they did interviews at all. That's how companies skirt the law and apply biases during job interviews.
  - jprete 2y ago
    That sounds very much like a disposable cog job. The lower the requirements, the more easily the workers are replaced.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      Such jobs may be necessary if you want low youth unemployment (us has about a third of the rate of youth unemployment as the eu).
- WWLink 2y ago
  > If anything it’s a reminder of exactly why unions are needed more than ever. Except in the software industry, there's too many stupid people who think they are really a "10x programmer" and fall for the Hank Hill special "SHH I'M PAYING YOU MORE BECAUSE YOU'RE A ROCKSTAR! DON'T TELL YOUR COWORKERS!" It's like most people took a boot licking course or something lol.
  - Macha 2y ago
    As time goes on, it's feeling more and more that the HN userbase has never found a boot it didn't identify with
- friend_and_foe 2y ago
  It could have been a lie. It was most certainly not a threat.
jsyang00 2y ago
and people wonder why all corporate comms come in the form of babblespeak...

tw04 2y ago

Which it was. He lied about a union taking away employees “empowerment”, and got smacked down by a judge for doing so. If anything it’s a reminder of exactly why unions are needed more than ever. Amazon of all companies is known to treat their employees like disposable cogs.

freedomben 2y ago
Have you ever worked in a union in the US? Some absolutely do take away employee empowerment. I worked a number of blue collar jobs earlier in life, and have many stories. I worked as an auto parts delivery driver, and one day I delivered some parts to a machine shop. As I started opening the front door, I could hear a blaring high-pitch wining noise coming from the shop area. I got to the office and there were 4 guys just sitting with earplugs in. I asked the what was going on, and they told me that one of the machines had broken but they weren't allowed to turn off the power switch because of union rules. They had to wait until the proper union guy showed up to turn off the switch. And no, this wasn't some super special switch, it was just a 50 amp breaker. I think it's pretty clear they lost some empowerment. I worked as an aircraft refueler in a climate that during fall would get fairly cold in the morning (20 deg F) and warm in the day (70+ deg F). One of our trucks had sensitive brakes that would often need a quarter-turn on a small screw that controlled airflow once the temperature went up (or down at night). It was trivial to do, but I wasn't allowed to even touch it because of union rules taht specified that only the mechanics union could "perform maintenance on the vehicles." So I routinely had to sit on the ramp for hours in the middle of the day waiting for maintenance to drive their truck out and turn the screw. I once suggested to our manager that we should schedule daily maintenance around noon each day since that is around when it usually stopped working, and union rules had an enumerated list of valid "scheduled maintenance" work that could be done, and that wasn't on the list, so he was powerless to do anything about it. I'm sure it didn't hurt that "unscheduled maintenance" cost us more than scheduled. I've heard plenty more stories from friends as well. Our local plumbers union was apprently quite something. They had rules around seniority that basically fucked over everyone with less than 10 years experience and made for a sweet life for everyone over. People worked their asses off for the worst jobs with inferior pay on the hope and dream for their turn at the top end of the pyramid some day when they got their turn to sit on top and exploit the people on the bottom. I'm not anti-union (some situations absolutely need unions to prevent extreme exploitation), but I am anti-blanket-pro-union. Some unions are really trash and should not exist. So yeah, if you're going to say that he "lied" then I think you need to explain what evidence you have that he knew what he said was not true. If he has any experience with unions, there's a good chance he has specific situations in mind.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  My amateur take here is, saying that something is a possibility, however remote, is different from "if you vote this way, this will happen to you" said by people with the power and motivation to make it happen to you if you vote that way. Would we expect the same deference given to a mob boss issuing thinly-veiled threats to witnesses? After all, it's not impossible that an accident will totally randomly happen to the witness or their loved ones that prevents them from testifying. The boss is just sayin' there's data that shows accidents sometimes happen to people who testify, that's all.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Yeah that's fair. CEOs being human, it seems unreasonable to expect them to never have opinions, but given the power dynamics/differential they absolutely must be held to a very high standard. This comment didn't feel at all like a threat to me given my personal experience (it felt like a blatant statement of fact), so while I don't agree that this broke the law, I do agree it isn't something he should have said and he needs to do better. Though personally, I'd much rather know my CEOs real opinion on things, because whether they say it out loud or not they still believe it. I'd rather know where people stand than have to guess/assume.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      I wouldn't have minded if he had issued an opinion that the union _might_ do something to members, rather than the leader of the company saying bad stuff will definitely happen to people who side against the company. After all, he has more motivation and opportunity than anyone else to follow through on that credible threat. Otherwise, is the mob boss in my example just expressing an opinion, too?
- busterarm 2y ago
  I've been in three different unions and posted similar about my experiences in the past and am usually downvoted to hell for it because of peoples' ideological alignment not allowing them to consider opposing experiences/viewpoints as reasonable.
FireBeyond 2y ago
> Amazon of all companies is known to treat their employees like disposable cogs. Amazon in my area has literally ran media ads (not paraphrasing, direct quotes): "Need a job? Can pass a background check? No interview, start as soon as tomorrow."
- oefrha 2y ago
  Duh, it’s unskilled labor and not customer-facing, what do you expect? A coding interview? Culture fit assessment?
  - drewcoo 2y ago
    Culture fit assessment would make sense, actually, if they did interviews at all. That's how companies skirt the law and apply biases during job interviews.
- jprete 2y ago
  That sounds very much like a disposable cog job. The lower the requirements, the more easily the workers are replaced.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Such jobs may be necessary if you want low youth unemployment (us has about a third of the rate of youth unemployment as the eu).
WWLink 2y ago
> If anything it’s a reminder of exactly why unions are needed more than ever. Except in the software industry, there's too many stupid people who think they are really a "10x programmer" and fall for the Hank Hill special "SHH I'M PAYING YOU MORE BECAUSE YOU'RE A ROCKSTAR! DON'T TELL YOUR COWORKERS!" It's like most people took a boot licking course or something lol.
- Macha 2y ago
  As time goes on, it's feeling more and more that the HN userbase has never found a boot it didn't identify with
friend_and_foe 2y ago
It could have been a lie. It was most certainly not a threat.

jsyang00 2y ago

and people wonder why all corporate comms come in the form of babblespeak...