7 ms·

Microsoft Pulling Free Development Tools for Windows 8 Desktop Apps

88 points by mrclownpants 14y ago

cageface 14y ago
Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. It was bad enough that their mobile platforms are so locked down, but with Apple and Microsoft now turning the screws ever tighter on their previously open desktop platforms and development tools the future is looking grim. Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. As much as I dislike trying to build complex apps on the web stack I'm starting to feel an almost moral obligation as a hacker to throw my weight behind the web, for whatever it's worth.
- daeken 14y ago
  > Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. No, it's not. I'm a huge, huge MS fanboi. I've used WP7 since it launched, I've been using Windows full time for quite a few years now and love it, I'm a huge .NET fan, etc. But about two weeks ago, I switched back to using Linux full-time. I only plan on using Windows in VMs for running software I'm reversing; everything else will be done natively under Linux. Windows 8 on ARM being so locked down was the last straw. I'm done playing their game, even if it means a slight drop in productivity in the short term.
  - cageface 14y ago
    You have that option because some people have done the hard work of building Linux into a viable alternative. If we collectively do the easy thing and submit to these new controls those alternatives may cease to exist. I think these new walled garden platforms are a real threat to the open web. But I applaud your willingness to put principle before convenience. I've been working almost exclusively on iOS apps for the last year and I really enjoy the platform but it bothers my conscience.
  - bad_user 14y ago
    About your productivity levels, don't worry about it because in the end you'll end up being much more productive. The one thing you must do is to embrace the Unix way of doing things. Learn the basic command-line tools and use them daily. Learn to use Emacs, because the same shortcuts are available in the shell. This book is great btw: Unix Power Tools (http://amzn.to/Klexhf http://amzn.to/Klexhf) Another thing you have to realize is that Unix was built for polyglots. Many Windows developers usually stay within the walls of .NET, but on Unix that's a mistake. Learn Java, learn a good scripting language (I recommend Ruby because it is great for scripting, has a thriving community and can also run on top of the JVM), learn C along with the POSIX APIs. Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA are good substitutes for Visual Studio, however I work with Emacs, because in dynamic languages the APIs and workflow are optimized for non-IDE usage and an IDE just stays in my way. I still use an IDE for Java, but that's only because in Java I can't drop to a REPL. Also, Linux is great for your desktop, but only if you have hardware that's compatible with it. So be careful when picking hardware and do some reading first, otherwise it will ruin your mood. OS X is also an option btw, but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to this platform because Apple is even worse than Microsoft in some regards.
    - daeken 14y ago
      I've been using Linux since 1999, ran it full time for many years. However, my productivity is still diminished, primarily due to the lack of decent reversing tools. IDA 6 is ok on Linux, but that's about where it ends. Eventually I'll build my tools up again, but it's a long climb.
- chj 14y ago
  Well said. However, we can go to back the open platforms, like Android.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    Honest question: how open is Android? I mean, when you consider Play. Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? I know we can always dev-unlock the device and install anything we want, but what about the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking? I'm worried about this move to walled gardens on all the platforms. The desktop is one of the last bastions of openness, but its not really evolving. Could we have cake (openness) and eat it to (app store where devs can make money, at least easily distribute their possibly creation-oriented apps)?
    - cageface 14y ago
      Android is not as open as I would like, but most devices still let you tick one checkbox in the preferences and then install whatever you like. The tools are open and free and work on Mac/Win/Linux. I think people wildly overestimate how much money the typical app can make in any of the app stores but I do think it's important that we find ways to make it easier to monetize web apps.
    - altrego99 14y ago
      Won't the first thing the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking do would be to learn how any application can be installed in the device?
    - antrix 14y ago
      > Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? Yes, you can. e.g AIDE : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui
    - notatoad 14y ago
      Android isn't google play. You can install any apk files you want onto your android device. No hacking or rooting or jail breaking required.
- jmathai 14y ago
  Agreed. It's unfortunate. I'm not an open source or freedom zealot but good gawd the open web is what gave birth to all the awesomeness we have. Take away "open" and we'll end up with a bunch of software on all of our mobile phones that's the equivalent of IE6 in 2012.
  - justincormack 14y ago
    No, Unix gave us that awesomeness. including giving us the open web.
- perlgeek 14y ago
  "the web" is just a platform. For some applications it makes sense, for other not so much. I spend maybe 8 to 12 hours a day in front of some very classic laptops or desktop PCs, and I'm happy with low-latency desktop programs. I don't anticipate this to change. Maybe the industry sells more mobile devices these days, and that makes it easy to for people to go "all mobile" or "all html5", but a good amount of being actually productive still happens on the old school desktop.
  - cageface 14y ago
    But both Apple and Microsoft appear to be making moves to lock down the desktop too. In many cases I prefer native apps too but I don't like Apple or MS telling me what I can and can't install on my computer.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  > the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? Now, Metro may offer a better deal by encouraging local HTML5 apps. But I still think the Open Web is something that underdog browsers should care about, neither users nor developers.
  - cageface 14y ago
    If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse their authority now just wait until they have nothing to fear.
    - fauigerzigerk 14y ago
      In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms. The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware. A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.
      - cageface 14y ago
        I think the really critical difference is that Apple and Microsoft can't tell me what "apps" I may or may not run on the web but they do demand this privilege on their mobile devices and seem to be making moves towards insisting on it on the desktop too.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Will the web be the most "open" platform in the long run though? What happens if services like amazon AWS put smaller hosts out of business and services like facebook become so ubiquitous that they are considered the "gateway" to the web and most web services are built on top of these APIs?
  - kaybe 14y ago
    I've been thinking about this for a while - if they (or we?) break this internet we have, can we make a new one, hidden from those who would break it? Would it require new infrastructure or could it be hidden inside the 'normal' net?
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      Gopher.
      - kaybe 14y ago
        Do you have more information about how this could work?
- 16s 14y ago
  I'm coming to hold this view as well. A much as I dislike web development in general, I plan to do more work there to hedge against this. I like for my software to run anywhere I need it and a web browser seems to be the only place it'll run without vendor interference, but I wonder when they may start attacking browsers?
stephengillie 14y ago
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4021690 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4021690
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Why was I downvoted for linking to previous comment threads about this same story?
  - lazugod 14y ago
    Possibly because you hadn't said what the links were, and the downvoters were lazy.
celerity 14y ago
I think they should instead focus on making Metro appealing to develop on, rather than making it the only free option. At least they still allow other compilers and any programming language. I wish Ubuntu would step up their development resources game, so that it becomes less painful to do anything there.
- brudgers 14y ago
  It's only Visual Studio 11 Express Edition which is limited to Metro. VS 2010 EE will still be available for developing Windows 8 desktop applications.
dbcooper 14y ago
How will this affect applications like Matlab 2012 64bit, which require a compiler (such as in the Win 7 SDK) to be installed to use certain features such as SIMULINK? http://www.mathworks.com/support/compilers/R2012a/win64.html http://www.mathworks.com/support/compilers/R2012a/win64.html Will there even be a compiler they could licence from MS and bundle?
- brudgers 14y ago
  VS Express 2010 will continue to be available. Previous discussion here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222
- ruediger 14y ago
  They could add support for GCC (MinGW) and ship it.
ajasmin 14y ago
Do we have to pay the Windows Store registration fee to deploy a Metro app? Or is there still way to send out an .exe to our friends and colleagues? Even if we get free development tools it would sucks if we can't share our work for free.
altrego99 14y ago
For Windows 7, they pulled the plug on DirectX, and targeted gamers who had to upgrade from Windows XP to be able to use DirectX 11. Under the belt, but worked as expected. For Windows 8, they're pulling the plug on freelance developers (who can still btw develop for Windows 7 if they are okay with VS 10 Express). For now this doesn't seem to hurt because of the following reasons - a) Gamers are indeed a vast majority of people who consciously choose Windows for a valid reason, that most mainstream games for PCs are still built with DirectX. They had no choice but to upgrade. b) How does hurting the free developer help your case? Only that this will encourage people to build more Windows 8 stuff, but - c) Devs can still continue to develop for Windows 7/XP using VS 10 Express. Granted, VS 11 will bring some attractive features in the language. d) Point remains that ordinary users, gamers included, will be scarcely affected. I just hope they're not planning anything else like the DX11 crap they pulled last time. Also wish a good graphics/multi-media framework gets developed in Linux which can give strong competition to DirectX.
altrego99 14y ago
+ Freelancer devs will be 'encouraged' to develop for Win 8, an argument can be made this will positively impact Win 8 sells, albeit it will be a difficult argument - Open source development on Windows will take a hit - Freelancers will either stick with older and less effective tools, or will choose to abandon Desktop - Users will tend to get less new software for their Windows 7 +/- Will not affect big corporations, e.g. gamemakers, who use the professional version - This will provide no additional motivation to bulk of the users (e.g. corporate, gamers) to switch to Windows 8 - This will further 'encourage' piracy of VS11
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  Freelancer devs will spend the money on the full version of the tools instead of just using the free version. You have to be a pretty small potatoes freelancer to not be able to afford visual studio in some incarnation. See also: graphic artists and photoshop.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    I am a freelancer and I will stick to VC++ Express 2010. It means that everyone who ever touches the codebase for whatever reason can just download stuff and hit compile. Ordering something as cheap as US$500 can still be a hassle in a big company. Also, I only got into MSVC because of open-source/hobbyist dev in the first place.
  - coffeeaddicted 14y ago
    It's not always about beeing able to afford something or not. I don't _want_ to support a business model that makes it harder for beginners. So yeah, when I have no choice due to project reasons I'll be forced to buy one obviously, but I don't like it and I will try even harder to get away from working on projects where I'm forced to do this in the future.
- exim 14y ago
  Actually, for freelancers it is more accessible and less risk to use illegal copies than for companies. Mostly, freelancers are producing sources for the concrete client, they aren't selling/shipping the binaries directly, so no one cares whether they used Notepad++ or Visual Studio.
Musaab 14y ago
The whole direction Microsoft is taking with Windows 8 and Visual Studio 11 seems kinda disturbing.
jasonkester 14y ago
This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So even assuming a team size of one, it's still closer to free than it is to a day's worth of your bill rate. Considering how much better the paid version of VS.NET is than the "Express" version, it's not even something worth thinking about. Given that, the fact that the Free version does this or doesn't do that has pretty much zero bearing on the life of a guy writing software on the Microsoft stack.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  > This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support. I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition.
  - jasonkester 14y ago
    Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer will go through thousands of dollars worth of games. A mountain biker will replace his $1500 bike in that timeframe, and a snowboarder will rack up thousands of dollars in lift tickets and baggy trousers. All these things have in common that: A. They're enjoyable, and: B. They cost money. Programming computers is no different. If you want to do it, and there's a good new tool out that costs money, why would you not buy it?
EtienneK 14y ago
Not great news for XNA hobbyists like myself. Oh well, I guess I'll just move to Java to create some games. It worked for Notch :)
- bad_user 14y ago
  Java is great for hobbyists. Checkout: http://jmonkeyengine.com/ http://jmonkeyengine.com/ Also, checkout MonoGame: http://monogame.codeplex.com/ http://monogame.codeplex.com/
zmmmmm 14y ago
Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world. I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can just disable that ... not including Flash or Java? Sure, just install them! It all hardly makes a difference. But all these steps put together - they make a difference! Slowly and surely we're being led like lambs to the slaughter to a world where everything we say or do with our technology will be under the control of giant tech companies that ultimately care only about their own profit. This is just one more little step to ensure that developers preferentially make apps for Microsoft's walled garden rather than free apps that run anywhere and might compete with their interests. Edit: correction about Mac App store vs signed apps
- apike 14y ago
  I think most would agree that this trend is there - the debate is how much it matters, how long it will last, and what, if anything, we should do about it. One point however: in Mountain Lion, the default is to allow any signed app to be run. One alternative setting is to only allow App Store apps. The other, likely more popular, alternative setting is to allow any app.
  - zmmmmm 14y ago
    Thanks - updated my post to reflect this.
  - cfn 14y ago
    I do think it matters a lot. If the Windows and Mac platforms are only accessible through App Stores then we, developers, will have to pay whatever royalty or percentage those companies see fit to charge. We may also lose the ability to publish software at all to those platforms if they so decide without much notice and maybe even without recourse. Although we could pass the expense of the App Store or absorb the cost, I guess most software companies would go bankrupt if Microsoft or Apple cancelled their accounts.
beedogs 14y ago
Microsoft is really, really doing well in their push to get users and developers to move to Linux. I can see no other reason for this move.
norswap 14y ago
Apart from IDE and related tools (which is a pretty big reason, to be sure), is there a good reason to use Microsoft's C/C++ compiler over MinGW ?
rvkennedy 14y ago
It's long past time since Visual Studio was the only game in town. Back when it was between VS6 and Borland C++ Builder, I was initially attracted by Builder's drag-and-drop UI construction - it seemed very odd at the time that "Visual" studio didn't offer that functionality. But Borland's descent into bug-ridden stagnation and my discovery of wxWidgets pushed me into the VC++ world for upwards of a decade. But now with Eclipse reaching maturity (it's the main IDE at the banking multinational where I recently worked), I'm finding less and less justification to stick with Visual Studio when my MSDN subscription expires. Another very promising tool is Qt Creator: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools This has less of the UI quirkiness of Eclipse, and the built-in documentation is great. Qt is now using Clang for code validation, but can be set to use Gcc or the Microsoft compiler. So given that I'm using Qt anyway for cross-platform UI, this may be the way forward.
bartl 14y ago
Alternative article on Ars Technica: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cos...
benologist 14y ago
AOL spam. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-lo...
forgotAgain 14y ago
It's developers, developers, developers. Until it isn't.
api 14y ago
Walled garden platforms are taking over partly because all operating systems are fundamentally broken with regard to privilege isolation, security, and application installability/uninstallability. The fact is that for the average non-techie user, allowing unsigned/untested apps results in a system full of malware and crappy software that destroys it. That's because the OS is not isolated from apps, and apps are not isolated from each other. The popularity of virtualization is also due in large part to this. Why can't you just rent accounts on large Linux servers? Why is KVM, OpenVZ/Parallels Virtuozzo, etc. necessary? Because everything requires root and everything pollutes the OS space. Broken, broken, broken. The way Macs package .app directories full of all files related to an application is a huge step in the right direction. The next step is to utterly forbid "installers" and make everything work this way, and to add stronger privilege isolation and organized APIs for apps to talk to each other. These should probably be based around peer-to-peer networking so that an app can locate and talk to another app regardless of what box it's on. That would be significantly less broken. Then allow apps to have their own addresses. We probably have to wait for IPv6 for this, but not necessarily. Then an app can bind, run services, etc. without requiring root. Finally, banish the entire concept of root/administrator except for OS developers and OS maintenance. The vast, vast majority of users (even power users) should never need to even know these exist. The bottom line is that the entire concept of "installing" something "on" the OS needs to be killed. Installers are ugly nasty hacks. Package management (ala rpm, deb, etc.) is also an ugly hack. Signed apps in walled gardens is an even nastier and downright evil hack to get around the brokenness of these ugly hacks.
- crumblan 14y ago
  > The next step is to utterly forbid "installers" and make everything work this way, and to add stronger privilege isolation and organized APIs for apps to talk to each other. I agree and disagree with you. I would be awesome if I could restrict apps and forbid installers. I'd also like to be able to run arbitrary apps as forbidden to use the internet and make them think they are reading/writing to /some/path/ but they are really reading/writing to /app/sandbox/some/path. I'd love the option. But then there are problems with that as well. Want to make an app plugin? Nope. Want to share libraries? Nope. Want to talk to an app? Hope it's got a canonical port number. So I don't think enforcing boundaries is the way to go. I'd love to see other opinions and whether or not there are any alternatives, though.
eblackburn 14y ago
The more accessible the grass route tools the greater the chance of adoption. Adoption for Win8 / RT maybe acceptable with the new Express options but frankly I don't see C# developers of the future applying for licences for IDEs to compile their software. They'll just adopt a different more (immediately) accessible platform. Companies will struggle to recruit for server hosted line of business applications. The ecosystem will suffocate. Managers and engineers will consider different platforms as part of their due diligence, as a result I predict less Windows licences will be sold.

88 points by mrclownpants 14y ago

Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. It was bad enough that their mobile platforms are so locked down, but with Apple and Microsoft now turning the screws ever tighter on their previously open desktop platforms and development tools the future is looking grim. Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. As much as I dislike trying to build complex apps on the web stack I'm starting to feel an almost moral obligation as a hacker to throw my weight behind the web, for whatever it's worth.

daeken 14y ago
> Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. No, it's not. I'm a huge, huge MS fanboi. I've used WP7 since it launched, I've been using Windows full time for quite a few years now and love it, I'm a huge .NET fan, etc. But about two weeks ago, I switched back to using Linux full-time. I only plan on using Windows in VMs for running software I'm reversing; everything else will be done natively under Linux. Windows 8 on ARM being so locked down was the last straw. I'm done playing their game, even if it means a slight drop in productivity in the short term.
- cageface 14y ago
  You have that option because some people have done the hard work of building Linux into a viable alternative. If we collectively do the easy thing and submit to these new controls those alternatives may cease to exist. I think these new walled garden platforms are a real threat to the open web. But I applaud your willingness to put principle before convenience. I've been working almost exclusively on iOS apps for the last year and I really enjoy the platform but it bothers my conscience.
- bad_user 14y ago
  About your productivity levels, don't worry about it because in the end you'll end up being much more productive. The one thing you must do is to embrace the Unix way of doing things. Learn the basic command-line tools and use them daily. Learn to use Emacs, because the same shortcuts are available in the shell. This book is great btw: Unix Power Tools (http://amzn.to/Klexhf http://amzn.to/Klexhf) Another thing you have to realize is that Unix was built for polyglots. Many Windows developers usually stay within the walls of .NET, but on Unix that's a mistake. Learn Java, learn a good scripting language (I recommend Ruby because it is great for scripting, has a thriving community and can also run on top of the JVM), learn C along with the POSIX APIs. Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA are good substitutes for Visual Studio, however I work with Emacs, because in dynamic languages the APIs and workflow are optimized for non-IDE usage and an IDE just stays in my way. I still use an IDE for Java, but that's only because in Java I can't drop to a REPL. Also, Linux is great for your desktop, but only if you have hardware that's compatible with it. So be careful when picking hardware and do some reading first, otherwise it will ruin your mood. OS X is also an option btw, but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to this platform because Apple is even worse than Microsoft in some regards.
  - daeken 14y ago
    I've been using Linux since 1999, ran it full time for many years. However, my productivity is still diminished, primarily due to the lack of decent reversing tools. IDA 6 is ok on Linux, but that's about where it ends. Eventually I'll build my tools up again, but it's a long climb.
chj 14y ago
Well said. However, we can go to back the open platforms, like Android.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Honest question: how open is Android? I mean, when you consider Play. Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? I know we can always dev-unlock the device and install anything we want, but what about the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking? I'm worried about this move to walled gardens on all the platforms. The desktop is one of the last bastions of openness, but its not really evolving. Could we have cake (openness) and eat it to (app store where devs can make money, at least easily distribute their possibly creation-oriented apps)?
  - cageface 14y ago
    Android is not as open as I would like, but most devices still let you tick one checkbox in the preferences and then install whatever you like. The tools are open and free and work on Mac/Win/Linux. I think people wildly overestimate how much money the typical app can make in any of the app stores but I do think it's important that we find ways to make it easier to monetize web apps.
  - altrego99 14y ago
    Won't the first thing the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking do would be to learn how any application can be installed in the device?
  - antrix 14y ago
    > Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? Yes, you can. e.g AIDE : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui
  - notatoad 14y ago
    Android isn't google play. You can install any apk files you want onto your android device. No hacking or rooting or jail breaking required.
jmathai 14y ago
Agreed. It's unfortunate. I'm not an open source or freedom zealot but good gawd the open web is what gave birth to all the awesomeness we have. Take away "open" and we'll end up with a bunch of software on all of our mobile phones that's the equivalent of IE6 in 2012.
- justincormack 14y ago
  No, Unix gave us that awesomeness. including giving us the open web.
perlgeek 14y ago
"the web" is just a platform. For some applications it makes sense, for other not so much. I spend maybe 8 to 12 hours a day in front of some very classic laptops or desktop PCs, and I'm happy with low-latency desktop programs. I don't anticipate this to change. Maybe the industry sells more mobile devices these days, and that makes it easy to for people to go "all mobile" or "all html5", but a good amount of being actually productive still happens on the old school desktop.
- cageface 14y ago
  But both Apple and Microsoft appear to be making moves to lock down the desktop too. In many cases I prefer native apps too but I don't like Apple or MS telling me what I can and can't install on my computer.
gurkendoktor 14y ago
> the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? Now, Metro may offer a better deal by encouraging local HTML5 apps. But I still think the Open Web is something that underdog browsers should care about, neither users nor developers.
- cageface 14y ago
  If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse their authority now just wait until they have nothing to fear.
  - fauigerzigerk 14y ago
    In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms. The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware. A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.
    - cageface 14y ago
      I think the really critical difference is that Apple and Microsoft can't tell me what "apps" I may or may not run on the web but they do demand this privilege on their mobile devices and seem to be making moves towards insisting on it on the desktop too.
jiggy2011 14y ago
Will the web be the most "open" platform in the long run though? What happens if services like amazon AWS put smaller hosts out of business and services like facebook become so ubiquitous that they are considered the "gateway" to the web and most web services are built on top of these APIs?
- kaybe 14y ago
  I've been thinking about this for a while - if they (or we?) break this internet we have, can we make a new one, hidden from those who would break it? Would it require new infrastructure or could it be hidden inside the 'normal' net?
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Gopher.
    - kaybe 14y ago
      Do you have more information about how this could work?
16s 14y ago
I'm coming to hold this view as well. A much as I dislike web development in general, I plan to do more work there to hedge against this. I like for my software to run anywhere I need it and a web browser seems to be the only place it'll run without vendor interference, but I wonder when they may start attacking browsers?

stephengillie 14y ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4021690 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4021690

stephengillie 14y ago
Why was I downvoted for linking to previous comment threads about this same story?
- lazugod 14y ago
  Possibly because you hadn't said what the links were, and the downvoters were lazy.

celerity 14y ago

I think they should instead focus on making Metro appealing to develop on, rather than making it the only free option. At least they still allow other compilers and any programming language. I wish Ubuntu would step up their development resources game, so that it becomes less painful to do anything there.

brudgers 14y ago
It's only Visual Studio 11 Express Edition which is limited to Metro. VS 2010 EE will still be available for developing Windows 8 desktop applications.

dbcooper 14y ago

How will this affect applications like Matlab 2012 64bit, which require a compiler (such as in the Win 7 SDK) to be installed to use certain features such as SIMULINK? http://www.mathworks.com/support/compilers/R2012a/win64.html http://www.mathworks.com/support/compilers/R2012a/win64.html Will there even be a compiler they could licence from MS and bundle?

brudgers 14y ago
VS Express 2010 will continue to be available. Previous discussion here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4020222
ruediger 14y ago
They could add support for GCC (MinGW) and ship it.

ajasmin 14y ago

Do we have to pay the Windows Store registration fee to deploy a Metro app? Or is there still way to send out an .exe to our friends and colleagues? Even if we get free development tools it would sucks if we can't share our work for free.

altrego99 14y ago

For Windows 7, they pulled the plug on DirectX, and targeted gamers who had to upgrade from Windows XP to be able to use DirectX 11. Under the belt, but worked as expected. For Windows 8, they're pulling the plug on freelance developers (who can still btw develop for Windows 7 if they are okay with VS 10 Express). For now this doesn't seem to hurt because of the following reasons - a) Gamers are indeed a vast majority of people who consciously choose Windows for a valid reason, that most mainstream games for PCs are still built with DirectX. They had no choice but to upgrade. b) How does hurting the free developer help your case? Only that this will encourage people to build more Windows 8 stuff, but - c) Devs can still continue to develop for Windows 7/XP using VS 10 Express. Granted, VS 11 will bring some attractive features in the language. d) Point remains that ordinary users, gamers included, will be scarcely affected. I just hope they're not planning anything else like the DX11 crap they pulled last time. Also wish a good graphics/multi-media framework gets developed in Linux which can give strong competition to DirectX.

altrego99 14y ago

+ Freelancer devs will be 'encouraged' to develop for Win 8, an argument can be made this will positively impact Win 8 sells, albeit it will be a difficult argument - Open source development on Windows will take a hit - Freelancers will either stick with older and less effective tools, or will choose to abandon Desktop - Users will tend to get less new software for their Windows 7 +/- Will not affect big corporations, e.g. gamemakers, who use the professional version - This will provide no additional motivation to bulk of the users (e.g. corporate, gamers) to switch to Windows 8 - This will further 'encourage' piracy of VS11

InclinedPlane 14y ago
Freelancer devs will spend the money on the full version of the tools instead of just using the free version. You have to be a pretty small potatoes freelancer to not be able to afford visual studio in some incarnation. See also: graphic artists and photoshop.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  I am a freelancer and I will stick to VC++ Express 2010. It means that everyone who ever touches the codebase for whatever reason can just download stuff and hit compile. Ordering something as cheap as US$500 can still be a hassle in a big company. Also, I only got into MSVC because of open-source/hobbyist dev in the first place.
- coffeeaddicted 14y ago
  It's not always about beeing able to afford something or not. I don't _want_ to support a business model that makes it harder for beginners. So yeah, when I have no choice due to project reasons I'll be forced to buy one obviously, but I don't like it and I will try even harder to get away from working on projects where I'm forced to do this in the future.
exim 14y ago
Actually, for freelancers it is more accessible and less risk to use illegal copies than for companies. Mostly, freelancers are producing sources for the concrete client, they aren't selling/shipping the binaries directly, so no one cares whether they used Notepad++ or Visual Studio.

Musaab 14y ago

The whole direction Microsoft is taking with Windows 8 and Visual Studio 11 seems kinda disturbing.

jasonkester 14y ago

This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. With BizSpark or similar, you're looking at something like $400 total to get as many copies of VS.NET as you need for your entire team. And all the other dev tools everybody needs. And Windows licenses for all their boxes. And Office. And everything else Microsoft makes. So even assuming a team size of one, it's still closer to free than it is to a day's worth of your bill rate. Considering how much better the paid version of VS.NET is than the "Express" version, it's not even something worth thinking about. Given that, the fact that the Free version does this or doesn't do that has pretty much zero bearing on the life of a guy writing software on the Microsoft stack.

gurkendoktor 14y ago
> This doesn't really seem like news to me. I've never met anybody doing real development in the .NET world who didn't have a paid copy of VS.NET. For C/C++ hobbyists and Open Source developers, MSVC used to be the compiler of choice on Windows. The Ruby community has embraced mingw more and more, and I think everyone else will (and should) do the same. Breaks my heart because MSVC has good C++11 support. I don't think any professional will care about this. In fact, it's probably good news for them (us). Any barrier to entry means slightly less competition.
- jasonkester 14y ago
  Why is your heart breaking? The new version still supports c++, right? Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean you can't pay a little money for things. I have lots of hobbies that are way more expensive than computer programming. One surfboard costs more than you'll pay for a full VS.NET license. Over the 4 years this next version will keep you going, I'll go through thousands of dollars worth of rock shoes. A gamer will go through thousands of dollars worth of games. A mountain biker will replace his $1500 bike in that timeframe, and a snowboarder will rack up thousands of dollars in lift tickets and baggy trousers. All these things have in common that: A. They're enjoyable, and: B. They cost money. Programming computers is no different. If you want to do it, and there's a good new tool out that costs money, why would you not buy it?

EtienneK 14y ago

Not great news for XNA hobbyists like myself. Oh well, I guess I'll just move to Java to create some games. It worked for Notch :)

bad_user 14y ago
Java is great for hobbyists. Checkout: http://jmonkeyengine.com/ http://jmonkeyengine.com/ Also, checkout MonoGame: http://monogame.codeplex.com/ http://monogame.codeplex.com/

zmmmmm 14y ago

Just another step towards a closed, locked down world where every app is vetted, approved and ultimately constrained to not compete with the business interests of the two largest tech companies in the world. I know, people will say, this hardly makes a difference, right? But all the steps hardly make a difference. OSX Mountain Lion defaulting to only allow apps signed with a certificate from Apple? Why, the user can just disable that ... not including Flash or Java? Sure, just install them! It all hardly makes a difference. But all these steps put together - they make a difference! Slowly and surely we're being led like lambs to the slaughter to a world where everything we say or do with our technology will be under the control of giant tech companies that ultimately care only about their own profit. This is just one more little step to ensure that developers preferentially make apps for Microsoft's walled garden rather than free apps that run anywhere and might compete with their interests. Edit: correction about Mac App store vs signed apps

apike 14y ago
I think most would agree that this trend is there - the debate is how much it matters, how long it will last, and what, if anything, we should do about it. One point however: in Mountain Lion, the default is to allow any signed app to be run. One alternative setting is to only allow App Store apps. The other, likely more popular, alternative setting is to allow any app.
- zmmmmm 14y ago
  Thanks - updated my post to reflect this.
- cfn 14y ago
  I do think it matters a lot. If the Windows and Mac platforms are only accessible through App Stores then we, developers, will have to pay whatever royalty or percentage those companies see fit to charge. We may also lose the ability to publish software at all to those platforms if they so decide without much notice and maybe even without recourse. Although we could pass the expense of the App Store or absorb the cost, I guess most software companies would go bankrupt if Microsoft or Apple cancelled their accounts.

beedogs 14y ago

Microsoft is really, really doing well in their push to get users and developers to move to Linux. I can see no other reason for this move.

norswap 14y ago

Apart from IDE and related tools (which is a pretty big reason, to be sure), is there a good reason to use Microsoft's C/C++ compiler over MinGW ?

rvkennedy 14y ago

It's long past time since Visual Studio was the only game in town. Back when it was between VS6 and Borland C++ Builder, I was initially attracted by Builder's drag-and-drop UI construction - it seemed very odd at the time that "Visual" studio didn't offer that functionality. But Borland's descent into bug-ridden stagnation and my discovery of wxWidgets pushed me into the VC++ world for upwards of a decade. But now with Eclipse reaching maturity (it's the main IDE at the banking multinational where I recently worked), I'm finding less and less justification to stick with Visual Studio when my MSDN subscription expires. Another very promising tool is Qt Creator: http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools http://qt.nokia.com/products/developer-tools This has less of the UI quirkiness of Eclipse, and the built-in documentation is great. Qt is now using Clang for code validation, but can be set to use Gcc or the Microsoft compiler. So given that I'm using Qt anyway for cross-platform UI, this may be the way forward.

bartl 14y ago

Alternative article on Ars Technica: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cos...

benologist 14y ago

AOL spam. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-lo...

forgotAgain 14y ago

It's developers, developers, developers. Until it isn't.

api 14y ago

Walled garden platforms are taking over partly because all operating systems are fundamentally broken with regard to privilege isolation, security, and application installability/uninstallability. The fact is that for the average non-techie user, allowing unsigned/untested apps results in a system full of malware and crappy software that destroys it. That's because the OS is not isolated from apps, and apps are not isolated from each other. The popularity of virtualization is also due in large part to this. Why can't you just rent accounts on large Linux servers? Why is KVM, OpenVZ/Parallels Virtuozzo, etc. necessary? Because everything requires root and everything pollutes the OS space. Broken, broken, broken. The way Macs package .app directories full of all files related to an application is a huge step in the right direction. The next step is to utterly forbid "installers" and make everything work this way, and to add stronger privilege isolation and organized APIs for apps to talk to each other. These should probably be based around peer-to-peer networking so that an app can locate and talk to another app regardless of what box it's on. That would be significantly less broken. Then allow apps to have their own addresses. We probably have to wait for IPv6 for this, but not necessarily. Then an app can bind, run services, etc. without requiring root. Finally, banish the entire concept of root/administrator except for OS developers and OS maintenance. The vast, vast majority of users (even power users) should never need to even know these exist. The bottom line is that the entire concept of "installing" something "on" the OS needs to be killed. Installers are ugly nasty hacks. Package management (ala rpm, deb, etc.) is also an ugly hack. Signed apps in walled gardens is an even nastier and downright evil hack to get around the brokenness of these ugly hacks.

crumblan 14y ago
> The next step is to utterly forbid "installers" and make everything work this way, and to add stronger privilege isolation and organized APIs for apps to talk to each other. I agree and disagree with you. I would be awesome if I could restrict apps and forbid installers. I'd also like to be able to run arbitrary apps as forbidden to use the internet and make them think they are reading/writing to /some/path/ but they are really reading/writing to /app/sandbox/some/path. I'd love the option. But then there are problems with that as well. Want to make an app plugin? Nope. Want to share libraries? Nope. Want to talk to an app? Hope it's got a canonical port number. So I don't think enforcing boundaries is the way to go. I'd love to see other opinions and whether or not there are any alternatives, though.

eblackburn 14y ago

The more accessible the grass route tools the greater the chance of adoption. Adoption for Win8 / RT maybe acceptable with the new Express options but frankly I don't see C# developers of the future applying for licences for IDEs to compile their software. They'll just adopt a different more (immediately) accessible platform. Companies will struggle to recruit for server hosted line of business applications. The ecosystem will suffocate. Managers and engineers will consider different platforms as part of their due diligence, as a result I predict less Windows licences will be sold.