4 ms·

Wow that story is like something straight out of spy-romanticising drama! Crazy that such undercover agents really exist! Also, I wonder what the pay is like?

Wow that story is like something straight out of spy-romanticising drama! Crazy that such undercover agents really exist! Also, I wonder what the pay is like? Or how it even works.. probably best to not leave a obvious money trail between state and spy..

tharmas 2y ago
I recommend "The Octopus Murders" on Netflix. The "spy world" is active in all kinds of activities. Many unsavory. All in the name of "the National Interest". Also the story of Gary Webb is quite interesting too.
- toofy 2y ago
  The Octopus Murders was absolutely fantastic.
- dboreham 2y ago
  Agreed. See also Epstein. Very spook-connected dude.
  - FabHK 2y ago
    And Jan Marsalek, of fake German payment startup Wirecard.
  - bitcharmer 2y ago
    There's a theory circulating that Epstein's network was essentially CIA's honeypot for wealthy and powerful people. I mean, that would be an insanely high value asset if true. And knowing this organization's track record I would not be surprised if this were true.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      Nah not CIA. Mossad. Given the number of US businessmen or presidents hanging out at the island it almost certainly not the Americans. Epstein's homegirl, Ghislaine, had some pretty strong ties to them through her father. She was probably his handler and/or gopher. Her dad, Robert Maxwell, born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch, had some pretty strong ties to Israeli intelligence. Also worth noting he had strong ties to everyone else, including the KGB and UK intelligence, too. But at his funeral Israeli heads of state mentioned "he did more for Israel than could ever be told", and that was thought to be related to Israel acquiring what is believed to be a nuclear weapons program. He famously sued the hell out of anyone in the UK who alluded to those relationships -- libel and slander laws are different in ole Blighty -- and it took an MP going on the record in the House of Commons, which is always recorded and is always public record, to expose his questionable ties. He also famously died of highly suspicious circumstances on his boat out in the middle of nowhere. That said, look into the history of Donald Barr, the father of Bob Barr, and a good friend/mentor of Epstein's. Raised Jewish but converted to Catholicism, served in the OSS, and had a lot of interesting ties to interesting people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
Most nations have programs like that. Source: My father[0] was one, for the CIA. Don't think he ever directed "kinetic" stuff, but I guess I'll never know. [0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm
dylan604 2y ago
Your pay is whatever job you have as a cover pays you. If you were getting additional pay to that, then it would be a red flag when the various agencies investigate you.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- adolph 2y ago
  If your pay is less than your cover, do you have to give it back? How does health insurance work for spy stuff? If the GRU agent gets exposed to novachuck, do they get to see a Russian specialist or do they just have access to the providers in their cover plan?
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. > If your pay is less than your cover, do you have to give it back? How can your pay be less than your cover? Your cover job is paying you. Your host agency is not. > How does health insurance work for spy stuff? At this point, I'm curious if this is an attempt at humor?
  - epolanski 2y ago
    > How does health insurance work for spy stuff? Russia, as most of Europe, has free public health care. You don't have to pay for it. Also, I think you have some confusion. 1) you are an officer in your army/services. You get your salary on your Russian bank account 2) you have a cover job that pays you. You use that money for your cover life.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    you get paid at your cover job. it's your 9-5. you work in IT, or as a baker, or insurance salesman or whatever. the money you get pays for your flat, and your dinner, etc. you also have a bank account in your home country, and that gets a salary, too. your insurance is through your cover job, or the country's healthcare system (if socialized). which also means you have crappy insurance salesman coverage :/ twenty years later when you return to the home country to retire you can sup on your pension and any retirement healthcare coverage, but until then it's on you.
withinboredom 2y ago
Spies often work for free, based on their ideologies. Agents, on the other hand, usually get paid whatever their normal pay is (aka, rank), plus danger pay and per-diem, where applicable.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  Not these spies apparently. They had meager official income, yet managed to live quite luxuriously.
  - alt219 2y ago
    According to the article, they were arms dealers.
- martinky24 2y ago
  > Spies often work for free Do you have a reputable source for that?
  - lolinder 2y ago
    I think the distinction they're drawing is that "spies" are often just people who hand over information to foreign states because that's where their sympathies lie, whereas "agents" are employees of an intelligence agency. That said, I don't think I've actually seen this distinction made before, and I'd love to hear citations for all the assertions that OP so confidently makes.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I think this role is better captured by the title informant: someone who passes information. They are not undercover, but are doing something secretly
    - withinboredom 2y ago
      Yeah, this is more inline of what I meant. Sources: - Spy museum: Berlin - Human Intelligence School for the US Amy (in ~07-08)
krunck 2y ago
EVERY powerful country has them. Some are just good enough to not get caught.
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
pphysch 2y ago
The authors are serial fabulists / NATO intelligence launderers, so it's totally possible that pieces of this narrative are outright fiction, woven in with verifiable facts.

tharmas 2y ago

I recommend "The Octopus Murders" on Netflix. The "spy world" is active in all kinds of activities. Many unsavory. All in the name of "the National Interest". Also the story of Gary Webb is quite interesting too.

toofy 2y ago
The Octopus Murders was absolutely fantastic.
dboreham 2y ago
Agreed. See also Epstein. Very spook-connected dude.
- FabHK 2y ago
  And Jan Marsalek, of fake German payment startup Wirecard.
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  There's a theory circulating that Epstein's network was essentially CIA's honeypot for wealthy and powerful people. I mean, that would be an insanely high value asset if true. And knowing this organization's track record I would not be surprised if this were true.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    Nah not CIA. Mossad. Given the number of US businessmen or presidents hanging out at the island it almost certainly not the Americans. Epstein's homegirl, Ghislaine, had some pretty strong ties to them through her father. She was probably his handler and/or gopher. Her dad, Robert Maxwell, born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch, had some pretty strong ties to Israeli intelligence. Also worth noting he had strong ties to everyone else, including the KGB and UK intelligence, too. But at his funeral Israeli heads of state mentioned "he did more for Israel than could ever be told", and that was thought to be related to Israel acquiring what is believed to be a nuclear weapons program. He famously sued the hell out of anyone in the UK who alluded to those relationships -- libel and slander laws are different in ole Blighty -- and it took an MP going on the record in the House of Commons, which is always recorded and is always public record, to expose his questionable ties. He also famously died of highly suspicious circumstances on his boat out in the middle of nowhere. That said, look into the history of Donald Barr, the father of Bob Barr, and a good friend/mentor of Epstein's. Raised Jewish but converted to Catholicism, served in the OSS, and had a lot of interesting ties to interesting people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

Most nations have programs like that. Source: My father[0] was one, for the CIA. Don't think he ever directed "kinetic" stuff, but I guess I'll never know. [0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm

dylan604 2y ago

Your pay is whatever job you have as a cover pays you. If you were getting additional pay to that, then it would be a red flag when the various agencies investigate you.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
adolph 2y ago
If your pay is less than your cover, do you have to give it back? How does health insurance work for spy stuff? If the GRU agent gets exposed to novachuck, do they get to see a Russian specialist or do they just have access to the providers in their cover plan?
- dylan604 2y ago
  Nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. > If your pay is less than your cover, do you have to give it back? How can your pay be less than your cover? Your cover job is paying you. Your host agency is not. > How does health insurance work for spy stuff? At this point, I'm curious if this is an attempt at humor?
- epolanski 2y ago
  > How does health insurance work for spy stuff? Russia, as most of Europe, has free public health care. You don't have to pay for it. Also, I think you have some confusion. 1) you are an officer in your army/services. You get your salary on your Russian bank account 2) you have a cover job that pays you. You use that money for your cover life.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  you get paid at your cover job. it's your 9-5. you work in IT, or as a baker, or insurance salesman or whatever. the money you get pays for your flat, and your dinner, etc. you also have a bank account in your home country, and that gets a salary, too. your insurance is through your cover job, or the country's healthcare system (if socialized). which also means you have crappy insurance salesman coverage :/ twenty years later when you return to the home country to retire you can sup on your pension and any retirement healthcare coverage, but until then it's on you.

withinboredom 2y ago

Spies often work for free, based on their ideologies. Agents, on the other hand, usually get paid whatever their normal pay is (aka, rank), plus danger pay and per-diem, where applicable.

The_Colonel 2y ago
Not these spies apparently. They had meager official income, yet managed to live quite luxuriously.
- alt219 2y ago
  According to the article, they were arms dealers.
martinky24 2y ago
> Spies often work for free Do you have a reputable source for that?
- lolinder 2y ago
  I think the distinction they're drawing is that "spies" are often just people who hand over information to foreign states because that's where their sympathies lie, whereas "agents" are employees of an intelligence agency. That said, I don't think I've actually seen this distinction made before, and I'd love to hear citations for all the assertions that OP so confidently makes.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think this role is better captured by the title informant: someone who passes information. They are not undercover, but are doing something secretly
  - withinboredom 2y ago
    Yeah, this is more inline of what I meant. Sources: - Spy museum: Berlin - Human Intelligence School for the US Amy (in ~07-08)

krunck 2y ago

EVERY powerful country has them. Some are just good enough to not get caught.

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

pphysch 2y ago

The authors are serial fabulists / NATO intelligence launderers, so it's totally possible that pieces of this narrative are outright fiction, woven in with verifiable facts.