8 ms·

Should the stock market never close?

39 points by biscuit1v9 2y ago

highwayman47 2y ago
Keeping it open any longer than it is, is going to cause liquidity issues. We already have an aftermarket anyways.
- chii 2y ago
  > is going to cause liquidity issues. why would a market open for long periods cause liquidity issues? I would expect that it _increases_ liquidity, as there'd be a trade available at all times, rather than just business hours.
  - unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
    People might misunderstand that there is similar liquidity at all operating hours, and try to trade in size on that basis and be alarmed by price changes , when the liquidity is actually during specific times. Right now when prices go haywire outside regular market hours, there's a asterisk, stop loss orders and margin calls aren't necessarily triggered or executed, and people tend to wait patiently to seek liquidity market open.
    - chii 2y ago
      > be alarmed by price changes only because they're not knowledgable enough. And if they're an amateur, they will lose to the pros - it's a shark infested trading market out there. I don't see any problems with that.
      - unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
        Until it's pros themselves responding to out-of-hour VAR shocks, and doing it outside hours. Not that it doesn't already happen, but its a matter of degree.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Wouldn't HFT solve it? They always tell us they are providing liquidity so nothing should stop them from doing exactly that 24/7.
  - highwayman47 2y ago
    It’s nothing but a money grab by the big players
throw0101c 2y ago
* https://archive.today/EkVPo https://archive.today/EkVPo * https://archive.ph/EkVPo https://archive.ph/EkVPo
biscuit1v9 2y ago
Don't know if archiving it was necessary. On my side: all the content is available & no pop-ups.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  For now.
lambdaone 2y ago
This sounds risky: is the goal truly 100% uptime? Real 24/7 is difficult, even in safety-critical fields. When would you ever push out fixes or do live testing?
- okdood64 2y ago
  24/5 is more realistic.
throw0101c 2y ago
> The survey comes as start-up 24 Exchange, backed by Steve Cohen’s Point72 Ventures fund, is seeking SEC approval to launch the first round-the-clock exchange. The filing is the second attempt for 24X, which withdrew a proposal last year over operational and technical issues. I know it is quite common, but I always found it strange that The (Free) Market™—where stocks are traded—was itself a commercial entity and traded on the same exchange(s) that it ran. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_Exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_Exchange * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stock_Exchange_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stock_Exchange_Group
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Why are you putting "(Free)" and "™"? Any particular stock market is not "the" market or "the free" market. It's just one of many. There are lots of stock markets, and there are lots of other markets, from commodities to real estate etc. Companies sometimes list on multiple stock markets. And markets are generally private entities, though they sometimes involve government regulation around information accuracy, transparency, antitrust, etc. This isn't something unique or peculiar to stock markets. And sure they can trade on their own exchange. It's really not any different from how you can put "Google Trends" as a search topic into Google Trends.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    I think the point is that if you didn't already know the way people talk about The Stock Market you would assume there was only one and that it was orchestrated by the government (perhaps via a private company partnership).
Apreche 2y ago
My concern is simply labor. If trading is 24/7 that means people will be working or on call 24/7. Not much sympathy for finance bros, but for the tech people and others. Then again, it may create some jobs if they have to hire night and weekend staff.
- freddie_mercury 2y ago
  Forex markets are already 24/7.
  - nnx 2y ago
    More like 24/5, open 24 hours on weekdays only.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- llm_trw 2y ago
  AWS is on 24/7 yet somehow we manage to keep it running.
- firecall 2y ago
  People can work in different Time Zones! It's actually kinda nnoying here in Australia that I have to wait for the NASDAQ to open, which means staying up later than I'd like on occasion!
  - tayo42 2y ago
    Can't you place orders with limits and let your broker just do it?
    - firecall 2y ago
      I dont think so... I'd need to double check. So maybe :-) I use an Australian online broker. They do offer pre-market orders, however they do say: > However, a limited number of buyers/sellers and volatile prices can make pre-market trading risky for novice investors. Am I am solidly a novice investor LOL :-)
mococa 2y ago
24/7 reminds me of when I used to work with crypto. It was basically madness.
flakeoil 2y ago
I suppose they want more transactions and thus more revenue. Edit: During the Internet bubble around 1999/2000 several markets extended their opening hours by a few hours. Later, after the bubble had burst, they went back to the old opening hours.
pavlov 2y ago
Most trading happens just after market open (reflecting information released since the market closed the previous day) and just before market close (because end-of-day prices are important in many contexts). So maybe there could instead be a chill stock exchange which is open for just two brief 15-minute windows, one in the New York morning and another in the evening.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  That's not stupid. Perhaps you could only place orders to be traded "at start" or "at end" beforehand, and they will be all processed at once.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Ha! That's actually... not a terrible idea. It's not really clear that it serves any societal purpose to have trading all day long. It's just a lot of traders super glued to the news and trying to react instantly. And trades take a couple of days to settle anyways. I'm really curious if anyone can point to important economic efficiences that would be lost if trading was restricted to two 15-minute windows per day.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    Wouldn't it be more relevant to reduce the time it takes to settle trades? That seems anachronistic, like sending checks by snailmail. We have so many computers in the 21st century, and most money is digital already. Does settling/clearing on a delay actually serve a purpose, or just enables someone to collect rent?
    - collinmcnulty 2y ago
      It serves the purpose of bringing all the market participants together to have the deepest market at the time of trading. This prevents pricing swings based on who happens to want to trade right this minute. Trading more frequently actually allows brokers to collect rents in the form of a spread for the “service” of buying from you now and selling to me later. If we had a daily auction, we could avoid the need for such a broker spread.
ArtTimeInvestor 2y ago
There should be no stock market. At least not one that is operated by people. The market for assets would be more efficient if we tokenize the assets. Then they can be transparently traded according to fixed rules. No opening times, no downtimes, no questions about how the system works.
- mathgeek 2y ago
  How would you handle the part of transparency that requires knowing who owns the assets?
  - ArtTimeInvestor 2y ago
    Who needs to know who owns an asset and why?
    - mathgeek 2y ago
      If you don’t know who owns something, that’s not transparency.
nobodyandproud 2y ago
No. The stock market should be an equalizer, but this will mostly benefit buy-side firms that have enough headcount or the infrastructure to support 24/7 trading.
jfengel 2y ago
Conversely: we have computers now. Why shouldn't stock traders get the benefit of the increased productivity? Maybe the stock market should go to a four day week. Maybe just a few hours per day.
paxys 2y ago
It isn't going to change anything in the grand scheme of things. The market swings on news, and there's mostly no news after hours. And even when there is, people who want to trade already manage to do it 24x7 in a variety of ways (hence the wild swings sometimes in between market closing and opening the following day).
- helsinkiandrew 2y ago
  > there’s mostly no news after hours Just about all market moving company and government economic news is announced after hours when the market is closed.
  - paxys 2y ago
    It's announced after hours because the market is closed. If it stays open 24x7 then there's no reason not to announce the news in the middle of the day. So after-work trading will still be minimal even if the markets remain open.
- planetpluta 2y ago
  > there’s mostly no news after hours As I understand it, most company earnings are released after hours and many important press releases are held until the market has closed to allow the news to be “digested” offline
Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
Cryptocurrency exchanges are typically 24/7 and as someone who does occasional trading, I can confidently say that it is very stressful: anything can happen while you sleep. So you sleep less when you have some open positions.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  Anything can happen in stock market as well. Just the price isn't immediately updated, but it is still the same thing.
  - karmakaze 2y ago
    But if the markets are closed, you may as well get good sleep until they open.
- not_the_fda 2y ago
  Thats the difference between investing and gambling. I sleep very well with my investments and ignore the daily / hourly fluctuations.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Yeah, I'm really not sure how we got to the current state of things. I would love to hear an explanation of how the various financial instruments are actually beneficial to people in the outside world because it certainly doesn't look that way.
thehours 2y ago
IIRC this topic was mentioned in the Game Theory chapter of ‘Algorithms to Live By’ as an example of Mechanism Design, but I don’t have it handy to offer anything more than a bread crumb reference from memory.
alchemist1e9 2y ago
Yes. Everyone who proposes restricting trading, or limiting to a few auctions, or claiming HFT doesn’t add social value, is simply misinformed. Assets which have continues liquidity have more utility for owners. Not only can markets instantly digest new information in a way that is fair, but also when there is no information and prices are stable, participants can make decisions for their own personal objectives at the very moment it’s most relevant to them. Imagine you can sell a few shares of your Nvidia holdings at midnight on Friday and it funds your Paypal card you swipe a few seconds later at the nightclub? There is absolutely no technical downside to expanding trading hours. HFT and electronic markets overall have massively decreased the transaction costs within asset markets, we are talking multiple orders of magnitude. Unfortunate HN is infiltrated with a large contingent of technically literate people who are completely economically illiterate, likely due to a systemic problem with western education system. For this reason they believe nonsense like markets are unfair, HFT is a zero sum arms race, highly regulated restricted auctions is a good idea, capitalism is evil, landlords are evil, governments are good and protect the people. All of which are completely idiotic beliefs that can only come from failure to have been taught economics and read history. Obviously stock markets can go 24/7 and it a strictly good thing.
xnx 2y ago
No strong opinion on operating hours, but trades should be configured to only occur once a minute to eliminate high-frequency training.
belter 2y ago
Title is: "New York Stock Exchange tests views on round-the-clock trading"

39 points by biscuit1v9 2y ago

highwayman47 2y ago

Keeping it open any longer than it is, is going to cause liquidity issues. We already have an aftermarket anyways.

chii 2y ago
> is going to cause liquidity issues. why would a market open for long periods cause liquidity issues? I would expect that it _increases_ liquidity, as there'd be a trade available at all times, rather than just business hours.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
  People might misunderstand that there is similar liquidity at all operating hours, and try to trade in size on that basis and be alarmed by price changes , when the liquidity is actually during specific times. Right now when prices go haywire outside regular market hours, there's a asterisk, stop loss orders and margin calls aren't necessarily triggered or executed, and people tend to wait patiently to seek liquidity market open.
  - chii 2y ago
    > be alarmed by price changes only because they're not knowledgable enough. And if they're an amateur, they will lose to the pros - it's a shark infested trading market out there. I don't see any problems with that.
    - unyttigfjelltol 2y ago
      Until it's pros themselves responding to out-of-hour VAR shocks, and doing it outside hours. Not that it doesn't already happen, but its a matter of degree.
Ekaros 2y ago
Wouldn't HFT solve it? They always tell us they are providing liquidity so nothing should stop them from doing exactly that 24/7.
- highwayman47 2y ago
  It’s nothing but a money grab by the big players

throw0101c 2y ago

* https://archive.today/EkVPo https://archive.today/EkVPo * https://archive.ph/EkVPo https://archive.ph/EkVPo

biscuit1v9 2y ago

Don't know if archiving it was necessary. On my side: all the content is available & no pop-ups.

throw0101c 2y ago
For now.

lambdaone 2y ago

This sounds risky: is the goal truly 100% uptime? Real 24/7 is difficult, even in safety-critical fields. When would you ever push out fixes or do live testing?

okdood64 2y ago
24/5 is more realistic.

throw0101c 2y ago

> The survey comes as start-up 24 Exchange, backed by Steve Cohen’s Point72 Ventures fund, is seeking SEC approval to launch the first round-the-clock exchange. The filing is the second attempt for 24X, which withdrew a proposal last year over operational and technical issues. I know it is quite common, but I always found it strange that The (Free) Market™—where stocks are traded—was itself a commercial entity and traded on the same exchange(s) that it ran. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_Exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercontinental_Exchange * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stock_Exchange_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stock_Exchange_Group

crazygringo 2y ago
Why are you putting "(Free)" and "™"? Any particular stock market is not "the" market or "the free" market. It's just one of many. There are lots of stock markets, and there are lots of other markets, from commodities to real estate etc. Companies sometimes list on multiple stock markets. And markets are generally private entities, though they sometimes involve government regulation around information accuracy, transparency, antitrust, etc. This isn't something unique or peculiar to stock markets. And sure they can trade on their own exchange. It's really not any different from how you can put "Google Trends" as a search topic into Google Trends.
- Spivak 2y ago
  I think the point is that if you didn't already know the way people talk about The Stock Market you would assume there was only one and that it was orchestrated by the government (perhaps via a private company partnership).

Apreche 2y ago

My concern is simply labor. If trading is 24/7 that means people will be working or on call 24/7. Not much sympathy for finance bros, but for the tech people and others. Then again, it may create some jobs if they have to hire night and weekend staff.

freddie_mercury 2y ago
Forex markets are already 24/7.
- nnx 2y ago
  More like 24/5, open 24 hours on weekdays only.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
llm_trw 2y ago
AWS is on 24/7 yet somehow we manage to keep it running.
firecall 2y ago
People can work in different Time Zones! It's actually kinda nnoying here in Australia that I have to wait for the NASDAQ to open, which means staying up later than I'd like on occasion!
- tayo42 2y ago
  Can't you place orders with limits and let your broker just do it?
  - firecall 2y ago
    I dont think so... I'd need to double check. So maybe :-) I use an Australian online broker. They do offer pre-market orders, however they do say: > However, a limited number of buyers/sellers and volatile prices can make pre-market trading risky for novice investors. Am I am solidly a novice investor LOL :-)

mococa 2y ago

24/7 reminds me of when I used to work with crypto. It was basically madness.

flakeoil 2y ago

I suppose they want more transactions and thus more revenue. Edit: During the Internet bubble around 1999/2000 several markets extended their opening hours by a few hours. Later, after the bubble had burst, they went back to the old opening hours.

pavlov 2y ago

Most trading happens just after market open (reflecting information released since the market closed the previous day) and just before market close (because end-of-day prices are important in many contexts). So maybe there could instead be a chill stock exchange which is open for just two brief 15-minute windows, one in the New York morning and another in the evening.

thriftwy 2y ago
That's not stupid. Perhaps you could only place orders to be traded "at start" or "at end" beforehand, and they will be all processed at once.
crazygringo 2y ago
Ha! That's actually... not a terrible idea. It's not really clear that it serves any societal purpose to have trading all day long. It's just a lot of traders super glued to the news and trying to react instantly. And trades take a couple of days to settle anyways. I'm really curious if anyone can point to important economic efficiences that would be lost if trading was restricted to two 15-minute windows per day.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  Wouldn't it be more relevant to reduce the time it takes to settle trades? That seems anachronistic, like sending checks by snailmail. We have so many computers in the 21st century, and most money is digital already. Does settling/clearing on a delay actually serve a purpose, or just enables someone to collect rent?
  - collinmcnulty 2y ago
    It serves the purpose of bringing all the market participants together to have the deepest market at the time of trading. This prevents pricing swings based on who happens to want to trade right this minute. Trading more frequently actually allows brokers to collect rents in the form of a spread for the “service” of buying from you now and selling to me later. If we had a daily auction, we could avoid the need for such a broker spread.

ArtTimeInvestor 2y ago

There should be no stock market. At least not one that is operated by people. The market for assets would be more efficient if we tokenize the assets. Then they can be transparently traded according to fixed rules. No opening times, no downtimes, no questions about how the system works.

mathgeek 2y ago
How would you handle the part of transparency that requires knowing who owns the assets?
- ArtTimeInvestor 2y ago
  Who needs to know who owns an asset and why?
  - mathgeek 2y ago
    If you don’t know who owns something, that’s not transparency.

nobodyandproud 2y ago

No. The stock market should be an equalizer, but this will mostly benefit buy-side firms that have enough headcount or the infrastructure to support 24/7 trading.

jfengel 2y ago

Conversely: we have computers now. Why shouldn't stock traders get the benefit of the increased productivity? Maybe the stock market should go to a four day week. Maybe just a few hours per day.

paxys 2y ago

It isn't going to change anything in the grand scheme of things. The market swings on news, and there's mostly no news after hours. And even when there is, people who want to trade already manage to do it 24x7 in a variety of ways (hence the wild swings sometimes in between market closing and opening the following day).

helsinkiandrew 2y ago
> there’s mostly no news after hours Just about all market moving company and government economic news is announced after hours when the market is closed.
- paxys 2y ago
  It's announced after hours because the market is closed. If it stays open 24x7 then there's no reason not to announce the news in the middle of the day. So after-work trading will still be minimal even if the markets remain open.
planetpluta 2y ago
> there’s mostly no news after hours As I understand it, most company earnings are released after hours and many important press releases are held until the market has closed to allow the news to be “digested” offline

Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago

Cryptocurrency exchanges are typically 24/7 and as someone who does occasional trading, I can confidently say that it is very stressful: anything can happen while you sleep. So you sleep less when you have some open positions.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
Anything can happen in stock market as well. Just the price isn't immediately updated, but it is still the same thing.
- karmakaze 2y ago
  But if the markets are closed, you may as well get good sleep until they open.
not_the_fda 2y ago
Thats the difference between investing and gambling. I sleep very well with my investments and ignore the daily / hourly fluctuations.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Yeah, I'm really not sure how we got to the current state of things. I would love to hear an explanation of how the various financial instruments are actually beneficial to people in the outside world because it certainly doesn't look that way.

thehours 2y ago

IIRC this topic was mentioned in the Game Theory chapter of ‘Algorithms to Live By’ as an example of Mechanism Design, but I don’t have it handy to offer anything more than a bread crumb reference from memory.

alchemist1e9 2y ago

Yes. Everyone who proposes restricting trading, or limiting to a few auctions, or claiming HFT doesn’t add social value, is simply misinformed. Assets which have continues liquidity have more utility for owners. Not only can markets instantly digest new information in a way that is fair, but also when there is no information and prices are stable, participants can make decisions for their own personal objectives at the very moment it’s most relevant to them. Imagine you can sell a few shares of your Nvidia holdings at midnight on Friday and it funds your Paypal card you swipe a few seconds later at the nightclub? There is absolutely no technical downside to expanding trading hours. HFT and electronic markets overall have massively decreased the transaction costs within asset markets, we are talking multiple orders of magnitude. Unfortunate HN is infiltrated with a large contingent of technically literate people who are completely economically illiterate, likely due to a systemic problem with western education system. For this reason they believe nonsense like markets are unfair, HFT is a zero sum arms race, highly regulated restricted auctions is a good idea, capitalism is evil, landlords are evil, governments are good and protect the people. All of which are completely idiotic beliefs that can only come from failure to have been taught economics and read history. Obviously stock markets can go 24/7 and it a strictly good thing.

xnx 2y ago

No strong opinion on operating hours, but trades should be configured to only occur once a minute to eliminate high-frequency training.

belter 2y ago

Title is: "New York Stock Exchange tests views on round-the-clock trading"