8 ms·

The thing people love forgetting is a huge part of the iPhone success is based on the North American cellular comms industry being a trustless disaster area. Th

The thing people love forgetting is a huge part of the iPhone success is based on the North American cellular comms industry being a trustless disaster area. The deal Apple did with AT&T opened the floodgates. Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. The idea was apps were developed (and sold) only by operators, and everything else would be via the browser. If you had used a Nokia device in the EU in 2005 and then the exact same model in the customised form released on a US carrier you'd understand why this was such a terrible idea. The exclusion of carriers from being able to make modifications to the phone was, and remains, an active feature for end users. People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either, someone somewhere will always trend towards the very worst thing they can do, and you need look no further than this forum for the levels of avarice which have overrun the tech industry. The EU regulators live in a parallel universe where they're all dependent on WhatsApp as they've never truly internalised that there is no such thing as a free lunch and that people see them as easy marks.

api 3y ago
I summarize the second point as “the Internet is a dark forest.” If it’s bad and it can be done it will be done, and at scale.
- hn_version_0023 3y ago
  You have neatly summarized why I feel strongly that the Internet has become a liability to humanity. I have no illusions that we can shut it down or walk away… but on a personal level I am trying harder than ever to remove it from my own life. If I can stay off Reddit, well, I can eventually remove it all I think!
  - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
    [dead]
  - api 3y ago
    Use it for the things it’s useful for and avoid the addictionware, rage bait, gambling, and other trash.
    - grugagag 3y ago
      It’s still too much of a time sink and even staying away from the bad parts brings so much distraction that we forget how to enjoy the simple things in life that make it worthwhile. Reading a book or watching a movie offline are cherished experiences many forgot how to savor in peace. Or leaving some questions unanswered for a while without wanting instant responses. Not to mention many forgo the outdoors entirely just in favor of time spent doing one thing or another online.
  - VelesDude 3y ago
    I am down to Hacker news, local weather updates when I remember and the occasional wiki look up. A few podcasts . The local library is now more my jam. I have been tracking my data use and last year it was only 70GB. And I have trimmed a bit more out of that since, especially on the podcast side which was the bulk of the data. It is getting to the point where I might just use my photo data plan which now has 120GB a year as it is more than enough.
lupusreal 3y ago
That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.
- glitchcrab 3y ago
  So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed via a new avenue because she's already being scammed in other ways?
  - Repulsion9513 3y ago
    So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed by Apple so long as she can't (but actually can) be scammed in other ways?
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    I think the GP regards the scams as an acceptable price to pay for additional user choice, which is a reasonable position.
    - throwaway48476 3y ago
      Scams exist because the scamming industry is a large fraction of gdp in some countries and the byzantine financial system doesn't allow for reversing charges.
    - VelesDude 3y ago
      It is also possible to keep safe guard in. You have to explicitly enable side loading side loading for instance.
  - quickslowdown 3y ago
    Sure, if you only focus on that one piece of their comment, but who wants to be that pedantic?
Dalewyn 3y ago
>Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. ... The exclusion of carriers from being able to make modifications to the phone was, and remains, an active feature for end users. Japanese Android phones bought from carriers are fucking horrible because they have modifications both from the manufacturer (eg: Sony, Samsung) and the carrier. I wonder if this is partially why Japan is among the few markets led by iOS rather than Android. I hate iOS, but Android from Japanese carriers is such a hellscape it might just be worth tolerating the former.
- baby 3y ago
  If you think about it, this is one of the reasons I like macOS. Back then, buying a PC with windows meant having a lot of crap installed by default. Not sure if it's still the case because I haven't bought a PC in ages, but I remember that formatting my computer and reinstalling windows was step 1 when I was buying a brand new laptop/PC.
  - nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    What you describe is the main reason I like Linux, but at last check the reinstall trick doesn't even work anymore because a lot of the preloaded software can get reinstalled automatically even if you install from non-OEM media. Its still probably better than trusting the preinstalled OS in the world of state sponsored spying and supply chain attacks.
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    >Back then, buying a PC with windows meant having a lot of crap installed by default. Maybe in the US/West when you bought prebuilt form the likes of Dell. But in my home of EE, most PCs we had for sale in shops were locally assembled with no OS, or just vanilla OEM Windows installed (sometimes even pirated). Crap installed by default on PCs is not something I ever encountered where I live.
    - jongle 3y ago
      In west europe PCs were riddled with crapware if you bought a prebuilt windows machine in the 90s and early 00s. Wipe and reinstall windows was first thing I would do with a new PC, it was a necessity. I don't know about intervening 20 odd years, I used linux, but I recently installed win 11 home and had zero crapware. Windows ISO from microsoft, harder to install than garden variety linux (not hard, just more annoying and takes way longer), but no tiktok, roblox, disney etc. Maybe it's an EU thing that stopped all the preloaded crap, no idea.
harpiaharpyja 3y ago
Pretty much. What made the PC era work as well as it did was a strong base of power users, that could choose what tech to use and what to sideline.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >What made the PC era work as well as it did was a strong base of power users No, power users rarely influenced mainstream adoption of any tech. Apple and the rest didn't become trillion dolar corps by catering to power users. Power users are niche and very picky market not worth catering to if you want to make it big. What made the "WIntel/IBM" PC gain majority mainstream market share was that is was all open(not to be confused with open source) which allowed everyone, not just power users, but regular users too, and also any HW vendor and SW developer to decide what HW and SW they can develop and sell to users, and what users can install on their system, without the consent or added 30% tax from the original vendor or manufacturer of the system. It was basically an open bazaar and a cost race to the bottom, where the free market decided the winners and losers based on consumer preference, but there was no global authority to say "I'm not gonna allow your SW/HW to run on the platform we developed". Microsoft or Intel couldn't gatekeep what you installed or ran on the Intel/Windows platform. Sure, the PC platform had it's own set of issues due to overabundance of cheap low quality HW/SW that caused poor UX, and anti-trust issues from the Windows and Intel monopolies, but it was overall a net benefit due to the open playing field. Can you imagine 3dfx, ATI and Nvidia GPUs not being allowed to run on the PC platform because Intel had a closed PCI standard that only worked with their own GPUs?
- raincole 3y ago
  Power users like to think so. But it's, at best, a very doubtful statement.
catlikesshrimp 3y ago
This is neithere nor there. Apple not submitting to US carriers greedy customizations and Apple allowing users to customize their devices are two completely different matters. You are throwing everything in the same bin which is the same Apple wants everyone to believe
pompino 3y ago
The only thing Apple cares about is Apple making more money. they will gladly gouge the end User so that their executives can line their pockets. there is nobody here you can actually ”trust”.
- simonh 3y ago
  However for Apple to keep making money they need to satisfy their users, so as with all commercial relationships there is a direct commercial incentive that aligns customer and vendor interests. The interesting question is how and why those interests align, and when and where they diverge. The answer to that will be different for different customers, or potential customers. A lot of iPhone customers like me are quite happy with the devices more or less as they are. The vast majority of people complaining about iPhones aren't iPhone customers. Frankly I don't really see why I should care what they think. I'm more sympathetic to actual iPhone customers, or former customers that left, but looking at the numbers satisfaction levels with iPhones are through the roof. This is a teeny tiny proportion of customers. The case for Apple harming the interests of customers directly is super thin. The other main dimension to this is Apple's commercial relations with other companies, mainly app store developers. I'm sympathetic to the idea that such relationships should be regulated to at least some extent. I'm glad controls on links to external payment options are being opened up, and there's pressure towards more equitable revenue structures. I think this is the main area Apple's control of the platform is open to abuse, but IMHO that doesn't extend to third party app stores. The current app store should be properly regulated, I think third party stores are a complete distraction. They'll never take off, and are probably going to be a worse experience for users.
  - pompino 3y ago
    Just because I bought an iphone, doesn't mean my interests align with Apple when they price gouge me for extra storage, or when they use child labor, or when they continue to create products which fill up landfills due to their anti-repair stance. Apple will suck up as much money as they can get away with - which is capitalism. I would argue there is no "alignment" of anything here. Its up to each individual to examine the facts, and decide for themselves what their own personal threshold is.
rezonant 3y ago
> Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. The idea was apps were developed (and sold) only by operators, and everything else would be via the browser. I'm not sure where you got this information. The Android Marketplace arrived with version 1.0 of Android on the T-Mobile G1. Side loading has been available since the very beginning. What you describe more closely resembles what iPhone did, except that it was never a given that Apple's carrier partners were going to be able to ship their own user facing software on the device. Operators and OEMs can absolutely customize Android and it was more allowed in the beginning than now. As a way to reduce fragmentation and gain more control over the platform, Google started attaching more and more stipulations to allowing it's suite of software (including Marketplace, now known as Google Play) to be included on handsets. Was there ever a case of a mobile operator launching their own software store on Android? Certainly OEMs did it, with the Samsung app store being the most prominent. Genuinely curious here, as others do note that (see the Japanese handsets post) OEMs have and even still do a bunch of customization and pre installed apps.
- pxeboot 3y ago
  >Was there ever a case of a mobile operator launching their own software store on Android? I believe Verizon launched their own app store at one point. It was called V Cast. A quick search led me here: https://www.pcworld.com/article/498393/verizons_android_app_store_everything_there_is_to_know.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/498393/verizons_android_app_...
- fidotron 3y ago
  > I'm not sure where you got this information. I was working in mobile games at the time and ended up working with Google on the Play Store launch, among other things. But what I mentioned was not some big secret. Everyone knew Android was supposed to be the response to google having to keep stashes of j2me devices in drawers, which is ironically what everyone ended up needing to do with Android devices. People have memory holed just what a shock the iphone caused, not just technically but strategically, and how it altered who has the power over distribution. The whole industry (google included) did not see this coming because of the power of the carriers.
wannacboatmovie 3y ago
[flagged]
- throw0101c 3y ago
  > What people keep forgetting is the original iPhone had no App Store. It arrived one year later, in 2008: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(Apple) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(Apple) > People quickly forget the original 1st gen iPhone was, despite laying the foundation for some great technologies, hot garbage. "Hot garbage" by what metric? Other phones introduced in 2007: * https://mowned.com/top-mobile-devices/2007 https://mowned.com/top-mobile-devices/2007 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mobile_phones_introduced_in_2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mobile_phones_introdu... The Nokia N95 or RIM Curve 8320 were ranked higher by some folks: * https://www.mobilegazette.com/2007-review-07x12x12.htm https://www.mobilegazette.com/2007-review-07x12x12.htm * https://web.archive.org/web/20071214112358/http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6452_7-6600061.html https://web.archive.org/web/20071214112358/http://reviews.cn...
  - xattt 3y ago
    > It arrived one year later, in 2008 I want to say that this was deliberate. The iPhone was a new product that needed the general population to adapt, and mental models around its use. An App Store at launch would have been hot garbage. Touch apps at that point were shittacular PocketPC apps. The HTML5/Web Apps recommended by Jobs were also deliberate in order to get developers to move toward formatting sites for mobile. This was 5D Chess.
WWLink 3y ago
> People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either The problem with this is that Apple is also a developer trying to sell you things. I would feel better if Apple's goals and the user's goals were aligned all the time instead of just some of the time. Admittedly, Apple's real priority is just to make money on every transaction that occurs upon an idevice.
- notyourwork 3y ago
  Yes businesses are in the business of making money. Apple is a business. The hope for you (a consumer) is that your needs and theirs are aligned sufficiently well that they solve problems you benefit from while minimizing how much they exploit you. It’s capitalism.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    Accurate. Businesses that show consistent good will towards their users often just haven't become successful enough to afford to exploit you yet. Pointing out that Apple only really cares about extracting your money is mostly an admission that they've found we will let them do it.
    - Terretta 3y ago
      Or, Apple gives you your time back, and for that, you are happy to trade a bit more money and a lot less time, to be a customer. Apple makes hardware enabled platform experiences for end users who don't want to tweak and people who value their own time more than money. That's a big reason Apple causes so much resentment -- not everyone can value time over money. It's also resented by devs who don't understand or value what a hardware enabled platform experience for end users can mean to their income if they grok it.
      - starttoaster 3y ago
        Or, the two things we’ve said about Apple aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m talking about how they behave, you’re talking about the philosophy for the products they create. I like and consume Apple products too, and my willingness to buy their updated model every few years is how they know they have me right where they want me.
riffic 3y ago
yall have to remember, there was a time you couldn't hook up your own landline telephone without it being one manufactured by Ma Bell herself (western electric) and rented out through an installment plan on your bill. Culturally the phone company (and the descendant cellular operators) were very much of this philosophical outlook. This page goes into particulars about the historically closed nature of the phone system and the cases that led to the eventual opening of bring your own equipment (Hush-a-phone, Carterfone etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer-premises_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer-premises_equipment
- kimmeld 3y ago
  Apple won’t let you install software you wrote onto your own computer. Culturally the same as Ma Bell.
  - einsteinx2 3y ago
    I’m really struggling to see how you could possible make that statement in good faith. I regularly install software I wrote I my own Apple computer.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
Yes EU regulators are an easy mark that need Apple to protect them from WhatsApp or something.
- hpeter 3y ago
  WhatsApp is on IOS tho, they are hiding from the wolf in the wolf den.
xvilka 3y ago
OEMs ruined Android with their "improvements". While stock Android has many issues of its own, the firmware that most users see is significantly worse.
Repulsion9513 3y ago
> People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either Ah yes, but Apple can /s The real lesson is that Apple can't be trusted either, and the best thing you can do is allow the user to choose who to trust.

api 3y ago

I summarize the second point as “the Internet is a dark forest.” If it’s bad and it can be done it will be done, and at scale.

hn_version_0023 3y ago
You have neatly summarized why I feel strongly that the Internet has become a liability to humanity. I have no illusions that we can shut it down or walk away… but on a personal level I am trying harder than ever to remove it from my own life. If I can stay off Reddit, well, I can eventually remove it all I think!
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
- api 3y ago
  Use it for the things it’s useful for and avoid the addictionware, rage bait, gambling, and other trash.
  - grugagag 3y ago
    It’s still too much of a time sink and even staying away from the bad parts brings so much distraction that we forget how to enjoy the simple things in life that make it worthwhile. Reading a book or watching a movie offline are cherished experiences many forgot how to savor in peace. Or leaving some questions unanswered for a while without wanting instant responses. Not to mention many forgo the outdoors entirely just in favor of time spent doing one thing or another online.
- VelesDude 3y ago
  I am down to Hacker news, local weather updates when I remember and the occasional wiki look up. A few podcasts . The local library is now more my jam. I have been tracking my data use and last year it was only 70GB. And I have trimmed a bit more out of that since, especially on the podcast side which was the bulk of the data. It is getting to the point where I might just use my photo data plan which now has 120GB a year as it is more than enough.

lupusreal 3y ago

That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.

glitchcrab 3y ago
So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed via a new avenue because she's already being scammed in other ways?
- Repulsion9513 3y ago
  So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed by Apple so long as she can't (but actually can) be scammed in other ways?
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  I think the GP regards the scams as an acceptable price to pay for additional user choice, which is a reasonable position.
  - throwaway48476 3y ago
    Scams exist because the scamming industry is a large fraction of gdp in some countries and the byzantine financial system doesn't allow for reversing charges.
  - VelesDude 3y ago
    It is also possible to keep safe guard in. You have to explicitly enable side loading side loading for instance.
- quickslowdown 3y ago
  Sure, if you only focus on that one piece of their comment, but who wants to be that pedantic?

Dalewyn 3y ago

>Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. ... The exclusion of carriers from being able to make modifications to the phone was, and remains, an active feature for end users. Japanese Android phones bought from carriers are fucking horrible because they have modifications both from the manufacturer (eg: Sony, Samsung) and the carrier. I wonder if this is partially why Japan is among the few markets led by iOS rather than Android. I hate iOS, but Android from Japanese carriers is such a hellscape it might just be worth tolerating the former.

baby 3y ago
If you think about it, this is one of the reasons I like macOS. Back then, buying a PC with windows meant having a lot of crap installed by default. Not sure if it's still the case because I haven't bought a PC in ages, but I remember that formatting my computer and reinstalling windows was step 1 when I was buying a brand new laptop/PC.
- nazgulsenpai 3y ago
  What you describe is the main reason I like Linux, but at last check the reinstall trick doesn't even work anymore because a lot of the preloaded software can get reinstalled automatically even if you install from non-OEM media. Its still probably better than trusting the preinstalled OS in the world of state sponsored spying and supply chain attacks.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >Back then, buying a PC with windows meant having a lot of crap installed by default. Maybe in the US/West when you bought prebuilt form the likes of Dell. But in my home of EE, most PCs we had for sale in shops were locally assembled with no OS, or just vanilla OEM Windows installed (sometimes even pirated). Crap installed by default on PCs is not something I ever encountered where I live.
  - jongle 3y ago
    In west europe PCs were riddled with crapware if you bought a prebuilt windows machine in the 90s and early 00s. Wipe and reinstall windows was first thing I would do with a new PC, it was a necessity. I don't know about intervening 20 odd years, I used linux, but I recently installed win 11 home and had zero crapware. Windows ISO from microsoft, harder to install than garden variety linux (not hard, just more annoying and takes way longer), but no tiktok, roblox, disney etc. Maybe it's an EU thing that stopped all the preloaded crap, no idea.

harpiaharpyja 3y ago

Pretty much. What made the PC era work as well as it did was a strong base of power users, that could choose what tech to use and what to sideline.

Rinzler89 3y ago
>What made the PC era work as well as it did was a strong base of power users No, power users rarely influenced mainstream adoption of any tech. Apple and the rest didn't become trillion dolar corps by catering to power users. Power users are niche and very picky market not worth catering to if you want to make it big. What made the "WIntel/IBM" PC gain majority mainstream market share was that is was all open(not to be confused with open source) which allowed everyone, not just power users, but regular users too, and also any HW vendor and SW developer to decide what HW and SW they can develop and sell to users, and what users can install on their system, without the consent or added 30% tax from the original vendor or manufacturer of the system. It was basically an open bazaar and a cost race to the bottom, where the free market decided the winners and losers based on consumer preference, but there was no global authority to say "I'm not gonna allow your SW/HW to run on the platform we developed". Microsoft or Intel couldn't gatekeep what you installed or ran on the Intel/Windows platform. Sure, the PC platform had it's own set of issues due to overabundance of cheap low quality HW/SW that caused poor UX, and anti-trust issues from the Windows and Intel monopolies, but it was overall a net benefit due to the open playing field. Can you imagine 3dfx, ATI and Nvidia GPUs not being allowed to run on the PC platform because Intel had a closed PCI standard that only worked with their own GPUs?
raincole 3y ago
Power users like to think so. But it's, at best, a very doubtful statement.

catlikesshrimp 3y ago

This is neithere nor there. Apple not submitting to US carriers greedy customizations and Apple allowing users to customize their devices are two completely different matters. You are throwing everything in the same bin which is the same Apple wants everyone to believe

pompino 3y ago

The only thing Apple cares about is Apple making more money. they will gladly gouge the end User so that their executives can line their pockets. there is nobody here you can actually ”trust”.

simonh 3y ago
However for Apple to keep making money they need to satisfy their users, so as with all commercial relationships there is a direct commercial incentive that aligns customer and vendor interests. The interesting question is how and why those interests align, and when and where they diverge. The answer to that will be different for different customers, or potential customers. A lot of iPhone customers like me are quite happy with the devices more or less as they are. The vast majority of people complaining about iPhones aren't iPhone customers. Frankly I don't really see why I should care what they think. I'm more sympathetic to actual iPhone customers, or former customers that left, but looking at the numbers satisfaction levels with iPhones are through the roof. This is a teeny tiny proportion of customers. The case for Apple harming the interests of customers directly is super thin. The other main dimension to this is Apple's commercial relations with other companies, mainly app store developers. I'm sympathetic to the idea that such relationships should be regulated to at least some extent. I'm glad controls on links to external payment options are being opened up, and there's pressure towards more equitable revenue structures. I think this is the main area Apple's control of the platform is open to abuse, but IMHO that doesn't extend to third party app stores. The current app store should be properly regulated, I think third party stores are a complete distraction. They'll never take off, and are probably going to be a worse experience for users.
- pompino 3y ago
  Just because I bought an iphone, doesn't mean my interests align with Apple when they price gouge me for extra storage, or when they use child labor, or when they continue to create products which fill up landfills due to their anti-repair stance. Apple will suck up as much money as they can get away with - which is capitalism. I would argue there is no "alignment" of anything here. Its up to each individual to examine the facts, and decide for themselves what their own personal threshold is.

rezonant 3y ago

> Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. The idea was apps were developed (and sold) only by operators, and everything else would be via the browser. I'm not sure where you got this information. The Android Marketplace arrived with version 1.0 of Android on the T-Mobile G1. Side loading has been available since the very beginning. What you describe more closely resembles what iPhone did, except that it was never a given that Apple's carrier partners were going to be able to ship their own user facing software on the device. Operators and OEMs can absolutely customize Android and it was more allowed in the beginning than now. As a way to reduce fragmentation and gain more control over the platform, Google started attaching more and more stipulations to allowing it's suite of software (including Marketplace, now known as Google Play) to be included on handsets. Was there ever a case of a mobile operator launching their own software store on Android? Certainly OEMs did it, with the Samsung app store being the most prominent. Genuinely curious here, as others do note that (see the Japanese handsets post) OEMs have and even still do a bunch of customization and pre installed apps.

pxeboot 3y ago
>Was there ever a case of a mobile operator launching their own software store on Android? I believe Verizon launched their own app store at one point. It was called V Cast. A quick search led me here: https://www.pcworld.com/article/498393/verizons_android_app_store_everything_there_is_to_know.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/498393/verizons_android_app_...
fidotron 3y ago
> I'm not sure where you got this information. I was working in mobile games at the time and ended up working with Google on the Play Store launch, among other things. But what I mentioned was not some big secret. Everyone knew Android was supposed to be the response to google having to keep stashes of j2me devices in drawers, which is ironically what everyone ended up needing to do with Android devices. People have memory holed just what a shock the iphone caused, not just technically but strategically, and how it altered who has the power over distribution. The whole industry (google included) did not see this coming because of the power of the carriers.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago

[flagged]

throw0101c 3y ago
> What people keep forgetting is the original iPhone had no App Store. It arrived one year later, in 2008: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(Apple) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(Apple) > People quickly forget the original 1st gen iPhone was, despite laying the foundation for some great technologies, hot garbage. "Hot garbage" by what metric? Other phones introduced in 2007: * https://mowned.com/top-mobile-devices/2007 https://mowned.com/top-mobile-devices/2007 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mobile_phones_introduced_in_2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mobile_phones_introdu... The Nokia N95 or RIM Curve 8320 were ranked higher by some folks: * https://www.mobilegazette.com/2007-review-07x12x12.htm https://www.mobilegazette.com/2007-review-07x12x12.htm * https://web.archive.org/web/20071214112358/http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6452_7-6600061.html https://web.archive.org/web/20071214112358/http://reviews.cn...
- xattt 3y ago
  > It arrived one year later, in 2008 I want to say that this was deliberate. The iPhone was a new product that needed the general population to adapt, and mental models around its use. An App Store at launch would have been hot garbage. Touch apps at that point were shittacular PocketPC apps. The HTML5/Web Apps recommended by Jobs were also deliberate in order to get developers to move toward formatting sites for mobile. This was 5D Chess.

WWLink 3y ago

> People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either The problem with this is that Apple is also a developer trying to sell you things. I would feel better if Apple's goals and the user's goals were aligned all the time instead of just some of the time. Admittedly, Apple's real priority is just to make money on every transaction that occurs upon an idevice.

notyourwork 3y ago
Yes businesses are in the business of making money. Apple is a business. The hope for you (a consumer) is that your needs and theirs are aligned sufficiently well that they solve problems you benefit from while minimizing how much they exploit you. It’s capitalism.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  Accurate. Businesses that show consistent good will towards their users often just haven't become successful enough to afford to exploit you yet. Pointing out that Apple only really cares about extracting your money is mostly an admission that they've found we will let them do it.
  - Terretta 3y ago
    Or, Apple gives you your time back, and for that, you are happy to trade a bit more money and a lot less time, to be a customer. Apple makes hardware enabled platform experiences for end users who don't want to tweak and people who value their own time more than money. That's a big reason Apple causes so much resentment -- not everyone can value time over money. It's also resented by devs who don't understand or value what a hardware enabled platform experience for end users can mean to their income if they grok it.
    - starttoaster 3y ago
      Or, the two things we’ve said about Apple aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m talking about how they behave, you’re talking about the philosophy for the products they create. I like and consume Apple products too, and my willingness to buy their updated model every few years is how they know they have me right where they want me.

riffic 3y ago

yall have to remember, there was a time you couldn't hook up your own landline telephone without it being one manufactured by Ma Bell herself (western electric) and rented out through an installment plan on your bill. Culturally the phone company (and the descendant cellular operators) were very much of this philosophical outlook. This page goes into particulars about the historically closed nature of the phone system and the cases that led to the eventual opening of bring your own equipment (Hush-a-phone, Carterfone etc): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer-premises_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer-premises_equipment

kimmeld 3y ago
Apple won’t let you install software you wrote onto your own computer. Culturally the same as Ma Bell.
- einsteinx2 3y ago
  I’m really struggling to see how you could possible make that statement in good faith. I regularly install software I wrote I my own Apple computer.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

Yes EU regulators are an easy mark that need Apple to protect them from WhatsApp or something.

hpeter 3y ago
WhatsApp is on IOS tho, they are hiding from the wolf in the wolf den.

xvilka 3y ago

OEMs ruined Android with their "improvements". While stock Android has many issues of its own, the firmware that most users see is significantly worse.

Repulsion9513 3y ago

> People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either Ah yes, but Apple can /s The real lesson is that Apple can't be trusted either, and the best thing you can do is allow the user to choose who to trust.