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Asian American women are getting lung cancer despite never smoking

148 points by panabee 2y ago

attentive 2y ago
Nobody mentioned it, but some Asians are heavy incense burners. It can't be too good for their health.
readthenotes1 2y ago
[flagged]
helsinkiandrew 2y ago
12% of Asian American men smoke compared with 2.6% of women. So non smoking Asian women are more likely to live with a smoking man. Could second hand smoking exposure be a factor in this? https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-tobacco-use/tobacco-use-racial-and-ethnic https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-to...
- j-cheong 2y ago
  If you live with a smoking man, then they shouldn't be counted in the nonsmoker category?
- max_ 2y ago
  There are Many things that cause lung cancer other than smoking. Infact majority of people that smoke don't get Cancer (only about 30% in a group of smokers get lung cancer) Edit: I don't mean it's comforting I prefer to have it at 0/10 I am just trying to say that things that cause cancer are not as deterministic as we think.
  - rafram 2y ago
    "If you smoke, your chances of getting cancer are only 3 in 10!" is not actually very comforting.
    - max_ 2y ago
      I don't mean it's comforting I prefer to have it at 0/10. I am just trying to say that things that cause cancer are not as deterministic as we think.
      - panabee 2y ago
        this is correct. it's clear that smoking elevates cancer risk, but why doesn't it cause cancer in all smokers? to develop a cure, we must better understand the causal mechanisms. this starts with acknowledging what we know and don't know about a devilishly complex disease that is arguably better conceptualized as a broad category rather than one monolith -- similar to how the flu, cold, and covid could be grouped under one mega classification, but are better identified as distinct conditions.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I think we understand the causal mechanism pretty well. it is just laypeople struggle with binary thinking vs probability. The reason why only 20% of smokers get cancer is similar to why a person doesn't get cancer after 1 cigarette. This is only counterintuitive if your default thinking is that smoking=cancer. In reality, there are a lot of variable chemical and biological processes involved, but ultimately it ultimately boils down to a cumulative risk, not guarantee.
        pokerface_86 2y ago
        [dead]
    - jejeyyy77 2y ago
      20% of lung cancer cases in the US are people who have never smoked.
      - hackeraccount 2y ago
        Poor Stephen Jay Gould. :-(
  - nneonneo 2y ago
    I mean, it’s not going to be 0/10 because smoking causes cancer. Cancer itself isn’t deterministic. This isn’t news. There is virtually nothing that is 100% guaranteed to produce cancer, but there are things that massively increase risk. Tobacco is one of them. An estimated 72% of lung cancers in Canada are caused by tobacco (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-concerns/tobacco/legislation/tobacco-product-labelling/smoking-lung-cancer.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-conce...) Smokers are 25x more likely to die of lung cancer as nonsmokers. The US CDC estimates that smoking is linked to 80-90% of lung cancer deaths (https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm). Saying “tobacco causes lung cancer” isn’t guaranteeing that smoking leads to lung cancer, but it sure as hell is the leading cause.
    - max_ 2y ago
      It is true that Tobacco increases cancer risk. But what about stuff like the use of Teflon and other "forever" chemicals? These things may also be making a contribution. It could also be a genetic defect. A liver cell growing in the lung. Or maybe a staple food familiar to Asian women that is being contaminated with carcinogens.
  - da_chicken 2y ago
    Yes, but as far as risk factors for lung cancer, second-hand smoking is one of the better known. I don't immediately see Asian American women being exposed to additional regional air pollution, asbestos, coal soot, or radon more than others. There could be a race-linked genetic factor, but I'm not aware of Asian women that are non-American having a higher rate. So I don't see why it would be something like... aspirated cooking oils fumes or natural gas fumes while cooking. Do Asian American households have a significantly higher likelihood of natural gas stoves? Do they have cultural histories of certain kinds of make-up or body treatments like talc?
    - samatman 2y ago
      > as far as risk factors for lung cancer, second-hand smoking is one of the better known. The risk is real and measurable, but to put that in perspective: the CDC summary says it increases risk by 20-30%, so 130% over baseline to take the higher number https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html For smokers, the risk is 15-30 times baseline, so 3000% over baseline for the high end https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm The article indicates a 260% increased all-factor risk for never-smoking Asian women, compared to White women. There has to be more going on than just second-hand smoke exposure.
  - DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
    IIRC the lifetime risk of lung cancer for smokers is more like 20%. For reference, among non-smokers the risk of lung cancer[0] is about 1%. So smoking is represents a 20x increase in risk. Around 80% of lung cancers are found in smokers and another 10% with heavy exposure to second-hand smoke. Smoking is the single largest risk factor for lung cancer. [0] All numbers are based on general population of US, so heavily white-skewed, I dunno about asian americans specifically.
  - Zancarius 2y ago
    I suspect part of this is because smokers, generally, don't always live long enough to actually get cancer, and statistically their year-over-year cancer risk drops to the same as the general population when they do quit. However, COPD, once established, is irreversible. My dad was a long time smoker and it was COPD that eventually got him. He battled it for years after he quit.
  - drewcoo 2y ago
    > There are Many things that cause lung cancer other than smoking. Radon is the #2 cause of lung cancer in the US. There are high levels of radon in about 1/15 US homes. https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm
- eBombzor 2y ago
  Anecdotal but can confirm that my Asian dad smokes a pack a day, with the window open, and it pretty much permeates the apartment, and we've all had issues with lung health. There's no doubt in my mind this is a huge factor. Sidenote but I haven't missed my father since I left home. Traditional old Asian men are possibly the worst humans ever.
  - brcmthrowaway 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - Pepe1vo 2y ago
    > Traditional old Asian men are possibly the worst humans ever. That's, uh, quite a strong statement. What makes them worse than all the other humans?
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      I'm assuming they are referring to "traditional old Asian culture" aka the combination of old patriarchal/sexist beliefs, a toxic workplace/exploitation culture, society-over-individual attitudes, and that topped up with a healthy dose of racism to xenophobia (depending on the country). I mean, some of this is rich to talk about given I'm European and most Western countries share a lot of these traits, but from what I hear(d) from friends from Asia, it's the "the needs of the society/family are more important than those of the individual" that they find the worst compared to the very individualist attitudes of Western countries.
      - arrowsmith 2y ago
        Are "society-over-individual values" really such an obviously bad thing?
        telchior 2y ago
        "Society" in this context can also mean "a tiny number of primarily self-interested individuals". That tends to be evident when the most powerful or influential people also happen to be strict authoritarians.
- somethoughts 2y ago
  Not sure about the validity of the source but it does suggest that second hand smoke could be related. "What’s behind this rise in lung cancer in women who have never smoked compared with men, and particularly in Asian American women? One possibility: While Chinese American women may never smoke themselves, they frequently live with partners or family members who do. (About 28% of Chinese American men smoke heavily, Dr. Li said.) “We think secondhand smoke might be one of the key risk factors, because they’re living with people who smoke,” Dr. Li said." [1] [1] https://www.chestnet.org/newsroom/blog/2024/03/secondhand-smoke-may-be-fueling-an-increase-in-lung-cancer-diagnoses-in-chinese-american-women https://www.chestnet.org/newsroom/blog/2024/03/secondhand-sm... I could see a possible scenario where a first generation (i.e. immigrant, English as a second language) Asian father/husband smoking at home in the 1990-2010 timeframe and not getting the second hand smoking messages/ads (that were primarily in English as quickly) as the rest of Americans and it's is just now that the statistics are showing up.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  This is what I first thought of as well, but other sources indicate that Asian Americans are actually the demographic with the least overall cigarette use[1]. Given that White and Black Americans use cigarettes at almost twice the rate Asian Americans do, we'd expect strong second-hand correlations for those groups as well. (This source doesn't quantify "use," so there are confounding factors: prevalence of smoking at home, chain smoking vs. social smoking, etc.) [1]: https://smokingcessationleadership.ucsf.edu/racialethnic-minorities https://smokingcessationleadership.ucsf.edu/racialethnic-min...
- jbverschoor 2y ago
  The number of people I met who say they don't smoke, but actually do...
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  Yeah but this should be the same increase in diagnosis amongst other non-smokers, or closer My hypothesis would be environmental plus genetic, given that our east Asian phenotype population is small and consolidated to small areas of the country. NYC, Socal Maybe we should look at increase in lung cancers in those areas specifically
lambdaba 2y ago
Wasn't there something about some seed oil fumes being toxic? Maybe it's related to some cooking practices. Highly speculative but the cooking oil toxicity is well-known. [edit] found this with a quick search, seems relevant: Exposure to Cooking Oil Fumes and Oxidative Damages: A Longitudinal Study in Chinese Military Cooks https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029104/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029104/ [edit 2] and indeed the article mentions it, although just in passing, still my hunch would go towards this as it seems a more specific factor than the others that are mentioned
- peteradio 2y ago
  Gas ranges aren't the only range that needs to be vented, all need it.
  - WirelessGigabit 2y ago
    I was surprised about this when I moved to the USA. We cooked on electricity in Belgium, and there was a range hood. Then you come here and you start to look at apartments and there is no hood at all. Weird. Or you see a microwave with a vent that vents inside. Makes you wonder whether a mandatory range hood that vents outside is better than a gas range ban...
    - taeric 2y ago
      Absolutely! Having only gotten into a house with a well done vent going outside recently, it is alarming how much cleaner everything in the kitchen is. Heck, I'm pretty sure the entire house shows signs that we don't have as much oil residue as we had in our previous houses. Now... there is also the eye opener that is cleaning the range hood for the first time. Holy crap.
    - peteradio 2y ago
      Yes, and having installed one myself, its no picnic so I can understand why there would be a pushback against that and instead scapegoating the gas range. But really its insane how much crap gets into the air when you cook anything indoors on any type of range.
ahepp 2y ago
A graph in the article is captioned: > A study of nearly 4,000 non-smoking women found that the share of Asian American women who developed lung cancer was more than twice that of white women. And then proceeds to list "53.4%" for Asian. Are we to believe that in a sample of "nearly 4,000 non-smoking women", over half of the Asian American women developed lung cancer? Elsewhere in the article it is said that > Among Asian American women who have lung cancer, more than 50% have never smoked" Those seem like completely different things to me...
- x0x0 2y ago
  I think what it means, and the graph is unclear, is that of the A-A women who developed lung cancer, 53% don't smoke. It's P(non-smoking | lung cancer, ethnicity)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ahepp 2y ago
    I think your interpretation is correct, but I'm not convinced it's just a matter of ambiguity. It looks to me like the caption on the graph is stating something that simply isn't true.
    - alphairys 2y ago
      You're right on the graph. The graph in the article is very misleading, especially the N=4000 non-smokers. If you look the table in the source paper, 53.4% of 296 Asian American Female (Single Group) lung-cancer patients are non-smokers. Also, share of lung-cancer patients being non-smoker vs. smoker being higher in Asian american females, does not necessarily mean they're more likely to get lung-cancer. This assumes the non-smoking vs. smoking population is the same in teh general population, which it isn't.
  - erehweb 2y ago
    Correct, looking at the original document https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8530225/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8530225/ - search for 53.4 in that
darth_avocado 2y ago
I am sure this inevitably is going to blame Asian cooking, but one important factor here is that the women surveyed were 40-70 year old. It is important, because a huge portion of these women would be first generation immigrants. That is important to know because first generation immigrants from decades ago are more likely to have a lower socioeconomic living conditions. Life in Asia with higher pollution and lower safety standards, life in America in poor neighborhoods with exposure to pollution, asbestos, and other carcinogens are all likely contributing factors.
- huytersd 2y ago
  It’s still strange. It’s not like Asian women in America are cooking on wood fire stoves.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - theossuary 2y ago
    Cooking on a gas stove without proper ventilation is terrible for you. My stove didn't have a hood when I moved in, inspection didn't even call it out to fix. But I started getting dizzy and feeling sick in my house; and had to install air sensors before I realized it was cooking that was absolutely destroying my air quality. Like from 2ppm to 1000ppm down the hall in the office. The whole "they're coming to steal your stoves" thing started for a reason, without proper ventilation to the outside (which just isn't that common in the US), cooking can destroy your lungs, even today.
wetpaws 2y ago
[dead]
ryukafalz 2y ago
The first thing that popped into my mind is that in the city nearest me, Chinatown was bisected by a freeway back in the 80s (opening in 1991). That'll be a bunch of new carcinogens in the air concentrated around that specific neighborhood.
takeshicovaxx 2y ago
[flagged]
engineer_22 2y ago
Spending too much time in the LA metro area
kingspact 2y ago
No, they're smoking behind their parents backs when they're young, and they're not telling their doctors, because Asian Americans, like many minorities, tend to patronize doctors of their own ethnicity and those doctors know their parents. Start doing autopsies on them - oh wait that's forbidden in their culture.
stevev 2y ago
Hairspray that are toxic and poison.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
d_burfoot 2y ago
It's worth noting in this context that Asian-American women are by far the longest-lived demographic group overall. Asians have a combined life expectancy of 86 years in the US, and women generally have a 4-5 year advantage relative to men. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_...
keepamovin 2y ago
I have a bizarre theory that 1 - 1.5 packs of cigarettes per year is actually beneficial for health. This theory has two parts: - small amounts of nicotine occsaionnaly are excellent for the brain - the innoculatory effects of small occasional acute exposure to toxins and carcinogens preemptively activates and trains your body and its immune system to respond to the types of things that cause damage. Basically by activating the damage repair systems occasionally under a mild stressor you keep yourself inoculated against seemingly damage-associated conditions. I'll let y'all know how it's going in 200 years or so :)
- hackeraccount 2y ago
  I have a similar theory about car accidents. I get in one every couple of years because I think that I'll be able react more quickly to them if I'd never experienced it at all. :-). Slightly more seriously, I hope your cigarette plan works out for you.
  - rufus_foreman 2y ago
    Exactly, or like allowing your kid occasional exposure to allergens hoping it will help them avoid allergies and asthma later on. In reality of course, no amount of cleanliness could possibly be too clean.
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      Except that exposing infants to food allergens has been shown lower the prevalence of food allergies. Solid Food Introduction and the Development of Food Allergies https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30453619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30453619/ Early consumption of peanuts in infancy is associated with a low prevalence of peanut allergy https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19000582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19000582/ What if it is the other way around? Early introduction of peanut and fish seems to be better than avoidance https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19432829/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19432829/
    - keepamovin 2y ago
DoreenMichele 2y ago
Very glad to see some people trying to do some research on this population cohort of Asian American women who never smoked. It would help if we had a clearer idea of what cancer is. Some cancers are known to be caused by viruses. Maybe someday they will have clearer distinctions between viral cancers and other cancers and that will help solve mysteries like this one. I'm frankly surprised by this. The only thing I had ever heard of was the Japanese smoking paradox where Japanese people smoke at higher rates and have lower rates of lung cancer. How or if that relates to this, I don't know.
baduongnham 2y ago
I see a lot of comments being made on here that are highly speculative of actual Asian American culture coming from users who - from their post histories - are not Asian. It's a lot of hearsay, and none of it is lived experience. The views that we "smoke behind our parents backs", or "burn a lot of incense", or "cook with a wok" are dated and archaic takes on what our lives are like. To the users making these comments - have you ever been in an Asian household?
- RockRobotRock 2y ago
  You went through everyone’s comments to see if they were Asian?
- attentive 2y ago
  "burn a lot of incense" is a first hand experience here. Not a one off. You can't really tell me I imagine that. It's hard not to notice or even avoid.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mastazi 2y ago
My wife is Thai, we now live in Australia. Back in Thailand she and her mother often used coal for cooking (which is listed in the article as a possible cause) but after moving to Australia, she no longer used it because it is impractical (the coal is hard to find, the type of stove used for cooking with coal is not readily available, neighbours would complain about the smoke, etc etc). I imagine that most other Asian women who migrated to Western countries face a similar situation and no longer use coal on a daily basis. Also, I am sceptical that cooking oils could be a factor, it seems to me that, at least in the parts of Asia where I have lived, the types of cooking oils used are similar to the ones used in the West. I have seen the comments about mustard oil but its usage seems to be limited to certain countries or regions and not widespread everywhere in Asia, whereas according to the article, the issue affects women from various countries from India to China. EDIT - however some of the comments indicate that other oils, not just mustard oil, also present similar health challenges and they are widely used in several Asian cooking traditions.
- dchftcs 2y ago
  I think the difference in cooking oil is in how the oil is used. What I hear abour Chinese households in US is that their kitchens tend to become more greasy, because their cooking style tends to produce more oil fumes, and fume extractors tend to be less common in US than in their home countries.
  - smallnamespace 2y ago
    The fume extractors in a typical American dwelling are also quite underpowered, especially in rentals. Gotta cook with wok hay.
syngrog66 2y ago
should not be on Hacker News
timerol 2y ago
> Over 50% of Asian American women who have lung cancer have never smoked Is this really that surprising, considering that only 2.6%[1] of Asian American women smoke? If 0% of Asian American women smoked, then 100% of the lung cancer cases would come from non-smokers. As it is, the group with the lowest percentage of smokers should have the highest percentage of lung cancer cases in non-smokers. The article gives no absolute rates to compare, and I can't easily find the article they quote for the rising rates of lung cancer in Asian American women. Given the poor interpretation of the subheading, I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely explained by aging, or was a reversion to the mean from a very low baseline. [1] From another comment on this article: https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-tobacco-use/tobacco-use-racial-and-ethnic https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-to...
- seeknotfind 2y ago
  Yeah this exactly. How does this kind of thing get published? It's blatant fear mongering.
- MrVandemar 2y ago
  ... or maybe passive smoking from their partners who may smoke.
- alphairys 2y ago
  Exactly!! The article doesn’t even get the paper right, but the paper doesn’t even talk about actual incidence rates within the non smoking population! It’s sad to see this kind of stuff published.
lawgimenez 2y ago
I guess we should start breaking down Asia, not just lump everyone into this demographic. People here are confused between South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia, there may be some overlapping similarities but culturally it is vastly different.
halfjoking 2y ago
A concerning cancer trend? Started in late 2021? Among the most Covid-vaccinated demographic in the nation? Wonder what it could be??? https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1783559790288937055 https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/178355979028893705...
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
GerryB 2y ago
I was happily surprised to see multiple actual studies and references linked in the article, unexpected from a site like NBC news.
sizzle 2y ago
Is this risk correlated to inhaling vast amounts of smoke from cooking in Asian households?
retinaros 2y ago
soybean oil is definitly the main differentiator and one of the most toxic oil there is and wouldnt be surprised that high smoking it increase risks of lung cancer. asian women being the cooks in most traditional family there you go… I am myself asian and totally stopped using it. I also suspect chili to be the reason regions like korea have high intestine/colorectal cancer

148 points by panabee 2y ago

attentive 2y ago

Nobody mentioned it, but some Asians are heavy incense burners. It can't be too good for their health.

readthenotes1 2y ago

[flagged]

helsinkiandrew 2y ago

12% of Asian American men smoke compared with 2.6% of women. So non smoking Asian women are more likely to live with a smoking man. Could second hand smoking exposure be a factor in this? https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-tobacco-use/tobacco-use-racial-and-ethnic https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-to...

j-cheong 2y ago
If you live with a smoking man, then they shouldn't be counted in the nonsmoker category?
max_ 2y ago
There are Many things that cause lung cancer other than smoking. Infact majority of people that smoke don't get Cancer (only about 30% in a group of smokers get lung cancer) Edit: I don't mean it's comforting I prefer to have it at 0/10 I am just trying to say that things that cause cancer are not as deterministic as we think.
- rafram 2y ago
  "If you smoke, your chances of getting cancer are only 3 in 10!" is not actually very comforting.
  - max_ 2y ago
    I don't mean it's comforting I prefer to have it at 0/10. I am just trying to say that things that cause cancer are not as deterministic as we think.
    - panabee 2y ago
      this is correct. it's clear that smoking elevates cancer risk, but why doesn't it cause cancer in all smokers? to develop a cure, we must better understand the causal mechanisms. this starts with acknowledging what we know and don't know about a devilishly complex disease that is arguably better conceptualized as a broad category rather than one monolith -- similar to how the flu, cold, and covid could be grouped under one mega classification, but are better identified as distinct conditions.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I think we understand the causal mechanism pretty well. it is just laypeople struggle with binary thinking vs probability. The reason why only 20% of smokers get cancer is similar to why a person doesn't get cancer after 1 cigarette. This is only counterintuitive if your default thinking is that smoking=cancer. In reality, there are a lot of variable chemical and biological processes involved, but ultimately it ultimately boils down to a cumulative risk, not guarantee.
        pokerface_86 2y ago
        [dead]
  - jejeyyy77 2y ago
    20% of lung cancer cases in the US are people who have never smoked.
    - hackeraccount 2y ago
      Poor Stephen Jay Gould. :-(
- nneonneo 2y ago
  I mean, it’s not going to be 0/10 because smoking causes cancer. Cancer itself isn’t deterministic. This isn’t news. There is virtually nothing that is 100% guaranteed to produce cancer, but there are things that massively increase risk. Tobacco is one of them. An estimated 72% of lung cancers in Canada are caused by tobacco (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-concerns/tobacco/legislation/tobacco-product-labelling/smoking-lung-cancer.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-conce...) Smokers are 25x more likely to die of lung cancer as nonsmokers. The US CDC estimates that smoking is linked to 80-90% of lung cancer deaths (https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm). Saying “tobacco causes lung cancer” isn’t guaranteeing that smoking leads to lung cancer, but it sure as hell is the leading cause.
  - max_ 2y ago
    It is true that Tobacco increases cancer risk. But what about stuff like the use of Teflon and other "forever" chemicals? These things may also be making a contribution. It could also be a genetic defect. A liver cell growing in the lung. Or maybe a staple food familiar to Asian women that is being contaminated with carcinogens.
- da_chicken 2y ago
  Yes, but as far as risk factors for lung cancer, second-hand smoking is one of the better known. I don't immediately see Asian American women being exposed to additional regional air pollution, asbestos, coal soot, or radon more than others. There could be a race-linked genetic factor, but I'm not aware of Asian women that are non-American having a higher rate. So I don't see why it would be something like... aspirated cooking oils fumes or natural gas fumes while cooking. Do Asian American households have a significantly higher likelihood of natural gas stoves? Do they have cultural histories of certain kinds of make-up or body treatments like talc?
  - samatman 2y ago
    > as far as risk factors for lung cancer, second-hand smoking is one of the better known. The risk is real and measurable, but to put that in perspective: the CDC summary says it increases risk by 20-30%, so 130% over baseline to take the higher number https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html For smokers, the risk is 15-30 times baseline, so 3000% over baseline for the high end https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm The article indicates a 260% increased all-factor risk for never-smoking Asian women, compared to White women. There has to be more going on than just second-hand smoke exposure.
- DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
  IIRC the lifetime risk of lung cancer for smokers is more like 20%. For reference, among non-smokers the risk of lung cancer[0] is about 1%. So smoking is represents a 20x increase in risk. Around 80% of lung cancers are found in smokers and another 10% with heavy exposure to second-hand smoke. Smoking is the single largest risk factor for lung cancer. [0] All numbers are based on general population of US, so heavily white-skewed, I dunno about asian americans specifically.
- Zancarius 2y ago
  I suspect part of this is because smokers, generally, don't always live long enough to actually get cancer, and statistically their year-over-year cancer risk drops to the same as the general population when they do quit. However, COPD, once established, is irreversible. My dad was a long time smoker and it was COPD that eventually got him. He battled it for years after he quit.
- drewcoo 2y ago
  > There are Many things that cause lung cancer other than smoking. Radon is the #2 cause of lung cancer in the US. There are high levels of radon in about 1/15 US homes. https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/lung/basic_info/risk_factors.htm
eBombzor 2y ago
Anecdotal but can confirm that my Asian dad smokes a pack a day, with the window open, and it pretty much permeates the apartment, and we've all had issues with lung health. There's no doubt in my mind this is a huge factor. Sidenote but I haven't missed my father since I left home. Traditional old Asian men are possibly the worst humans ever.
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  [flagged]
- Pepe1vo 2y ago
  > Traditional old Asian men are possibly the worst humans ever. That's, uh, quite a strong statement. What makes them worse than all the other humans?
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    I'm assuming they are referring to "traditional old Asian culture" aka the combination of old patriarchal/sexist beliefs, a toxic workplace/exploitation culture, society-over-individual attitudes, and that topped up with a healthy dose of racism to xenophobia (depending on the country). I mean, some of this is rich to talk about given I'm European and most Western countries share a lot of these traits, but from what I hear(d) from friends from Asia, it's the "the needs of the society/family are more important than those of the individual" that they find the worst compared to the very individualist attitudes of Western countries.
    - arrowsmith 2y ago
      Are "society-over-individual values" really such an obviously bad thing?
      - telchior 2y ago
        "Society" in this context can also mean "a tiny number of primarily self-interested individuals". That tends to be evident when the most powerful or influential people also happen to be strict authoritarians.
somethoughts 2y ago
Not sure about the validity of the source but it does suggest that second hand smoke could be related. "What’s behind this rise in lung cancer in women who have never smoked compared with men, and particularly in Asian American women? One possibility: While Chinese American women may never smoke themselves, they frequently live with partners or family members who do. (About 28% of Chinese American men smoke heavily, Dr. Li said.) “We think secondhand smoke might be one of the key risk factors, because they’re living with people who smoke,” Dr. Li said." [1] [1] https://www.chestnet.org/newsroom/blog/2024/03/secondhand-smoke-may-be-fueling-an-increase-in-lung-cancer-diagnoses-in-chinese-american-women https://www.chestnet.org/newsroom/blog/2024/03/secondhand-sm... I could see a possible scenario where a first generation (i.e. immigrant, English as a second language) Asian father/husband smoking at home in the 1990-2010 timeframe and not getting the second hand smoking messages/ads (that were primarily in English as quickly) as the rest of Americans and it's is just now that the statistics are showing up.
woodruffw 2y ago
This is what I first thought of as well, but other sources indicate that Asian Americans are actually the demographic with the least overall cigarette use[1]. Given that White and Black Americans use cigarettes at almost twice the rate Asian Americans do, we'd expect strong second-hand correlations for those groups as well. (This source doesn't quantify "use," so there are confounding factors: prevalence of smoking at home, chain smoking vs. social smoking, etc.) [1]: https://smokingcessationleadership.ucsf.edu/racialethnic-minorities https://smokingcessationleadership.ucsf.edu/racialethnic-min...
jbverschoor 2y ago
The number of people I met who say they don't smoke, but actually do...
yieldcrv 2y ago
Yeah but this should be the same increase in diagnosis amongst other non-smokers, or closer My hypothesis would be environmental plus genetic, given that our east Asian phenotype population is small and consolidated to small areas of the country. NYC, Socal Maybe we should look at increase in lung cancers in those areas specifically

lambdaba 2y ago

Wasn't there something about some seed oil fumes being toxic? Maybe it's related to some cooking practices. Highly speculative but the cooking oil toxicity is well-known. [edit] found this with a quick search, seems relevant: Exposure to Cooking Oil Fumes and Oxidative Damages: A Longitudinal Study in Chinese Military Cooks https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029104/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029104/ [edit 2] and indeed the article mentions it, although just in passing, still my hunch would go towards this as it seems a more specific factor than the others that are mentioned

peteradio 2y ago
Gas ranges aren't the only range that needs to be vented, all need it.
- WirelessGigabit 2y ago
  I was surprised about this when I moved to the USA. We cooked on electricity in Belgium, and there was a range hood. Then you come here and you start to look at apartments and there is no hood at all. Weird. Or you see a microwave with a vent that vents inside. Makes you wonder whether a mandatory range hood that vents outside is better than a gas range ban...
  - taeric 2y ago
    Absolutely! Having only gotten into a house with a well done vent going outside recently, it is alarming how much cleaner everything in the kitchen is. Heck, I'm pretty sure the entire house shows signs that we don't have as much oil residue as we had in our previous houses. Now... there is also the eye opener that is cleaning the range hood for the first time. Holy crap.
  - peteradio 2y ago
    Yes, and having installed one myself, its no picnic so I can understand why there would be a pushback against that and instead scapegoating the gas range. But really its insane how much crap gets into the air when you cook anything indoors on any type of range.

ahepp 2y ago

A graph in the article is captioned: > A study of nearly 4,000 non-smoking women found that the share of Asian American women who developed lung cancer was more than twice that of white women. And then proceeds to list "53.4%" for Asian. Are we to believe that in a sample of "nearly 4,000 non-smoking women", over half of the Asian American women developed lung cancer? Elsewhere in the article it is said that > Among Asian American women who have lung cancer, more than 50% have never smoked" Those seem like completely different things to me...

x0x0 2y ago
I think what it means, and the graph is unclear, is that of the A-A women who developed lung cancer, 53% don't smoke. It's P(non-smoking | lung cancer, ethnicity)
- deleted 2y ago
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- ahepp 2y ago
  I think your interpretation is correct, but I'm not convinced it's just a matter of ambiguity. It looks to me like the caption on the graph is stating something that simply isn't true.
  - alphairys 2y ago
    You're right on the graph. The graph in the article is very misleading, especially the N=4000 non-smokers. If you look the table in the source paper, 53.4% of 296 Asian American Female (Single Group) lung-cancer patients are non-smokers. Also, share of lung-cancer patients being non-smoker vs. smoker being higher in Asian american females, does not necessarily mean they're more likely to get lung-cancer. This assumes the non-smoking vs. smoking population is the same in teh general population, which it isn't.
- erehweb 2y ago
  Correct, looking at the original document https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8530225/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8530225/ - search for 53.4 in that

darth_avocado 2y ago

I am sure this inevitably is going to blame Asian cooking, but one important factor here is that the women surveyed were 40-70 year old. It is important, because a huge portion of these women would be first generation immigrants. That is important to know because first generation immigrants from decades ago are more likely to have a lower socioeconomic living conditions. Life in Asia with higher pollution and lower safety standards, life in America in poor neighborhoods with exposure to pollution, asbestos, and other carcinogens are all likely contributing factors.

huytersd 2y ago
It’s still strange. It’s not like Asian women in America are cooking on wood fire stoves.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- theossuary 2y ago
  Cooking on a gas stove without proper ventilation is terrible for you. My stove didn't have a hood when I moved in, inspection didn't even call it out to fix. But I started getting dizzy and feeling sick in my house; and had to install air sensors before I realized it was cooking that was absolutely destroying my air quality. Like from 2ppm to 1000ppm down the hall in the office. The whole "they're coming to steal your stoves" thing started for a reason, without proper ventilation to the outside (which just isn't that common in the US), cooking can destroy your lungs, even today.

wetpaws 2y ago

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ryukafalz 2y ago

The first thing that popped into my mind is that in the city nearest me, Chinatown was bisected by a freeway back in the 80s (opening in 1991). That'll be a bunch of new carcinogens in the air concentrated around that specific neighborhood.

takeshicovaxx 2y ago

[flagged]

engineer_22 2y ago

Spending too much time in the LA metro area

kingspact 2y ago

No, they're smoking behind their parents backs when they're young, and they're not telling their doctors, because Asian Americans, like many minorities, tend to patronize doctors of their own ethnicity and those doctors know their parents. Start doing autopsies on them - oh wait that's forbidden in their culture.

stevev 2y ago

Hairspray that are toxic and poison.

deleted 2y ago

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d_burfoot 2y ago

It's worth noting in this context that Asian-American women are by far the longest-lived demographic group overall. Asians have a combined life expectancy of 86 years in the US, and women generally have a 4-5 year advantage relative to men. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_...

keepamovin 2y ago

I have a bizarre theory that 1 - 1.5 packs of cigarettes per year is actually beneficial for health. This theory has two parts: - small amounts of nicotine occsaionnaly are excellent for the brain - the innoculatory effects of small occasional acute exposure to toxins and carcinogens preemptively activates and trains your body and its immune system to respond to the types of things that cause damage. Basically by activating the damage repair systems occasionally under a mild stressor you keep yourself inoculated against seemingly damage-associated conditions. I'll let y'all know how it's going in 200 years or so :)

hackeraccount 2y ago
I have a similar theory about car accidents. I get in one every couple of years because I think that I'll be able react more quickly to them if I'd never experienced it at all. :-). Slightly more seriously, I hope your cigarette plan works out for you.
- rufus_foreman 2y ago
  Exactly, or like allowing your kid occasional exposure to allergens hoping it will help them avoid allergies and asthma later on. In reality of course, no amount of cleanliness could possibly be too clean.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    Except that exposing infants to food allergens has been shown lower the prevalence of food allergies. Solid Food Introduction and the Development of Food Allergies https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30453619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30453619/ Early consumption of peanuts in infancy is associated with a low prevalence of peanut allergy https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19000582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19000582/ What if it is the other way around? Early introduction of peanut and fish seems to be better than avoidance https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19432829/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19432829/
  - keepamovin 2y ago

DoreenMichele 2y ago

Very glad to see some people trying to do some research on this population cohort of Asian American women who never smoked. It would help if we had a clearer idea of what cancer is. Some cancers are known to be caused by viruses. Maybe someday they will have clearer distinctions between viral cancers and other cancers and that will help solve mysteries like this one. I'm frankly surprised by this. The only thing I had ever heard of was the Japanese smoking paradox where Japanese people smoke at higher rates and have lower rates of lung cancer. How or if that relates to this, I don't know.

baduongnham 2y ago

I see a lot of comments being made on here that are highly speculative of actual Asian American culture coming from users who - from their post histories - are not Asian. It's a lot of hearsay, and none of it is lived experience. The views that we "smoke behind our parents backs", or "burn a lot of incense", or "cook with a wok" are dated and archaic takes on what our lives are like. To the users making these comments - have you ever been in an Asian household?

RockRobotRock 2y ago
You went through everyone’s comments to see if they were Asian?
attentive 2y ago
"burn a lot of incense" is a first hand experience here. Not a one off. You can't really tell me I imagine that. It's hard not to notice or even avoid.

deleted 2y ago

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mastazi 2y ago

My wife is Thai, we now live in Australia. Back in Thailand she and her mother often used coal for cooking (which is listed in the article as a possible cause) but after moving to Australia, she no longer used it because it is impractical (the coal is hard to find, the type of stove used for cooking with coal is not readily available, neighbours would complain about the smoke, etc etc). I imagine that most other Asian women who migrated to Western countries face a similar situation and no longer use coal on a daily basis. Also, I am sceptical that cooking oils could be a factor, it seems to me that, at least in the parts of Asia where I have lived, the types of cooking oils used are similar to the ones used in the West. I have seen the comments about mustard oil but its usage seems to be limited to certain countries or regions and not widespread everywhere in Asia, whereas according to the article, the issue affects women from various countries from India to China. EDIT - however some of the comments indicate that other oils, not just mustard oil, also present similar health challenges and they are widely used in several Asian cooking traditions.

dchftcs 2y ago
I think the difference in cooking oil is in how the oil is used. What I hear abour Chinese households in US is that their kitchens tend to become more greasy, because their cooking style tends to produce more oil fumes, and fume extractors tend to be less common in US than in their home countries.
- smallnamespace 2y ago
  The fume extractors in a typical American dwelling are also quite underpowered, especially in rentals. Gotta cook with wok hay.

syngrog66 2y ago

should not be on Hacker News

timerol 2y ago

> Over 50% of Asian American women who have lung cancer have never smoked Is this really that surprising, considering that only 2.6%[1] of Asian American women smoke? If 0% of Asian American women smoked, then 100% of the lung cancer cases would come from non-smokers. As it is, the group with the lowest percentage of smokers should have the highest percentage of lung cancer cases in non-smokers. The article gives no absolute rates to compare, and I can't easily find the article they quote for the rising rates of lung cancer in Asian American women. Given the poor interpretation of the subheading, I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely explained by aging, or was a reversion to the mean from a very low baseline. [1] From another comment on this article: https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-tobacco-use/tobacco-use-racial-and-ethnic https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-to...

seeknotfind 2y ago
Yeah this exactly. How does this kind of thing get published? It's blatant fear mongering.
MrVandemar 2y ago
... or maybe passive smoking from their partners who may smoke.
alphairys 2y ago
Exactly!! The article doesn’t even get the paper right, but the paper doesn’t even talk about actual incidence rates within the non smoking population! It’s sad to see this kind of stuff published.

lawgimenez 2y ago

I guess we should start breaking down Asia, not just lump everyone into this demographic. People here are confused between South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia, there may be some overlapping similarities but culturally it is vastly different.

halfjoking 2y ago

A concerning cancer trend? Started in late 2021? Among the most Covid-vaccinated demographic in the nation? Wonder what it could be??? https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1783559790288937055 https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/178355979028893705...

aaron695 2y ago

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GerryB 2y ago

I was happily surprised to see multiple actual studies and references linked in the article, unexpected from a site like NBC news.

sizzle 2y ago

Is this risk correlated to inhaling vast amounts of smoke from cooking in Asian households?

retinaros 2y ago

soybean oil is definitly the main differentiator and one of the most toxic oil there is and wouldnt be surprised that high smoking it increase risks of lung cancer. asian women being the cooks in most traditional family there you go… I am myself asian and totally stopped using it. I also suspect chili to be the reason regions like korea have high intestine/colorectal cancer