5 ms·

Philosophus Autodidactus

73 points by niemandhier 3y ago

niemandhier 3y ago
A young boy raises himself on a deserted island and by power of his observations graduates from imitation animals to human behaviour. A philosophical investigation in how our environment shapes us and how we transcend. Probably the most important work of Islamic philosophy.
- xeonmc 3y ago
  Inspiration for The Jungle Book?
- smel 3y ago
  I read the original version several times when I was young ... The kid has been raised by an animal through observation, guessing and experimentation he cames to some discoveries and conclusions about life, death, elements of the universe, god ... he even become vegans and eat only falling fruits because he thought animal and plants are sentient just like humans but with different degrees of sophistication ... Ibn Tufail is very famous in my country we have several schools, universities, hospitals in his name
sandspar 3y ago
When Leonardo da Vinci was a boy, he went to the woods near his home and drew what he saw. He learned directly from nature.
- llm_trw 3y ago
  What of every other child who did the same and wasn't Leonardo da Vinci?
  - loa_in_ 3y ago
    There's multitudes of great individuals that are just unknown to history
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      So what are we supposed to take away from the initial comment?
      - sambazi 3y ago
        That Leonardo was a great individual because he did what he did
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Sure, but aren't there great individuals who didn't study nature in that way?
        fuzzfactor 3y ago
        When it comes to scholars, if they came along after Da Vinci, there is some likelihood they studied at least a little something descended from Leonardo himself.
        u32480932048 3y ago
        Given the sheer number of individuals and methods of studying nature: certainly. Anyone who's studied math or statistics for more than two minutes could answer that.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Exactly, so if there are multitudes of great individualss both have and haven't studied nature then why make a bald statement about the practice of a single individual? I'm asking what was being initially implied.
        fuzzfactor 3y ago
        >Leonardo was a great individual because he did what he did Could also equally be that Leonardo did what he did because he was a great individual. >So what are we supposed to take away from the initial comment? Probably something that I can add to. That gives me an idea . . .
  - u32480932048 3y ago
    What of them? What does this even mean? That, since your kids aren't likely to become the next Leonardo da Vinci, they shouldn't play outside? That playing in the woods as a child isn't a substitute for a world-class education later in life? Did they teach you that at the university? Because I'm pretty sure nobody else here is equating playing in the woods as a kid with becoming a famous artist and engineer later in life.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
failTide 3y ago
I realize it's allegorical in nature, but one of the conclusions made in the article is > Reaching the absolute information is individual and simply any human being is able to achieve that. Is that a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious how this jives with the 'on the shoulders of giants' concept that we've built a lot of our modern knowledge on.
- niemandhier 3y ago
  In the end language fails to actually convey the real information, but one’s own discovery can be guided. To understand a mathematical proof I follow the reasoning but the internal model I build looks different from what is presented.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  How do you interpret "reaching the absolute information"? I'm content with reaching the relative information about the bits of the universe that I find most interesting, and hope to add a few good and novel ones during the remainder of my lifetime. Two areas where a community helps are (a) finding the known ways blazed* and (b) avoiding becoming a crank. For the former it makes sense that one prefers to make good time. For the latter, finding a new way to get to new fields that may or may not be fertile may or may not be worth doing; finding a new way to get to existing fields that either (a) shaves trip time for those travelling light, or (b) is more easily passable for those travelling with a bunch of baggage, is definitely worth doing. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_blazing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_blazing EDIT: Tiger got to hunt; bird got to fly; man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep; bird got to land; man got to tell himself he understand.
Giorgi 3y ago
If "The Jungle Book" was written by Arabs.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  An Arab. I expect the Jungle Book would look quite different if it were written by another European, say Kafka for example.
Jun8 3y ago
Wow, the comparisons to The Jungle Book are interesting, this is a globally well-known philosophical work. For me two of the main points it analyzes are: 1. Can a person without language and without God’s Words transferred to him, reason and still find Him? Answer, of course, is yes. 2. Comparison between surface level understanding of the God’s Word vs. its “real,” hidden meaning. The two people Hayy meets symbolizes the two: Salaman, the first (representing the Sunni followers of Shariah) and Absal, the second (the Sufi, follower of the Tasawwuf). Hayy himself represents the Philosopher, I.e. pure reason. This dichotomy goes right to the heart of Islamic thought. Hayy, first tries to teach his understanding to the inhabitants of the island rules by Salaman but then sees the futility of it and leaves with Absal. Too bad the English Wikipedia page gives such a limited summary of the plot. Ibn Tufail based this novel on a story that was translated from Greek to Arabic by Hunayn Ibn Ishaq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq).
GrantMoyer 3y ago
From summaries, it seems like the novel explores ideas of human exceptionalism, such as humans having an innate ability to understand the world using only their own abilities to observe and reason. Unfortunately, these ideas seem to be contradicted by real-world cases of feral children[1], such as the disturbing case of Genie[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)
- wslh 3y ago
  You are using a fallacy to probe the contrary: cherry picking specific cases. While we already know (based on history) that most of the time "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." it is also true that people such as Ramanujan could see beyond using a basic set of learnt tools. There are few exceptional people that have exceptional intuition for some topics.
- slibhb 3y ago
  I agree that the story in the linked article is fanciful. But I don't know if Genie's case is such a clear counterexample. She was horrifically abused; a child growing up with animals would be much better off.
- water-data-dude 3y ago
  I’d never heard about Genie before, that’s absolutely gut wrenching.

73 points by niemandhier 3y ago

A young boy raises himself on a deserted island and by power of his observations graduates from imitation animals to human behaviour. A philosophical investigation in how our environment shapes us and how we transcend. Probably the most important work of Islamic philosophy.

xeonmc 3y ago
Inspiration for The Jungle Book?
smel 3y ago
I read the original version several times when I was young ... The kid has been raised by an animal through observation, guessing and experimentation he cames to some discoveries and conclusions about life, death, elements of the universe, god ... he even become vegans and eat only falling fruits because he thought animal and plants are sentient just like humans but with different degrees of sophistication ... Ibn Tufail is very famous in my country we have several schools, universities, hospitals in his name

sandspar 3y ago

When Leonardo da Vinci was a boy, he went to the woods near his home and drew what he saw. He learned directly from nature.

llm_trw 3y ago
What of every other child who did the same and wasn't Leonardo da Vinci?
- loa_in_ 3y ago
  There's multitudes of great individuals that are just unknown to history
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    So what are we supposed to take away from the initial comment?
    - sambazi 3y ago
      That Leonardo was a great individual because he did what he did
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Sure, but aren't there great individuals who didn't study nature in that way?
        fuzzfactor 3y ago
        When it comes to scholars, if they came along after Da Vinci, there is some likelihood they studied at least a little something descended from Leonardo himself.
        u32480932048 3y ago
        Given the sheer number of individuals and methods of studying nature: certainly. Anyone who's studied math or statistics for more than two minutes could answer that.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        Exactly, so if there are multitudes of great individualss both have and haven't studied nature then why make a bald statement about the practice of a single individual? I'm asking what was being initially implied.
      - fuzzfactor 3y ago
        >Leonardo was a great individual because he did what he did Could also equally be that Leonardo did what he did because he was a great individual. >So what are we supposed to take away from the initial comment? Probably something that I can add to. That gives me an idea . . .
- u32480932048 3y ago
  What of them? What does this even mean? That, since your kids aren't likely to become the next Leonardo da Vinci, they shouldn't play outside? That playing in the woods as a child isn't a substitute for a world-class education later in life? Did they teach you that at the university? Because I'm pretty sure nobody else here is equating playing in the woods as a kid with becoming a famous artist and engineer later in life.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

failTide 3y ago

I realize it's allegorical in nature, but one of the conclusions made in the article is > Reaching the absolute information is individual and simply any human being is able to achieve that. Is that a reasonable conclusion? I'm curious how this jives with the 'on the shoulders of giants' concept that we've built a lot of our modern knowledge on.

niemandhier 3y ago
In the end language fails to actually convey the real information, but one’s own discovery can be guided. To understand a mathematical proof I follow the reasoning but the internal model I build looks different from what is presented.
082349872349872 3y ago
How do you interpret "reaching the absolute information"? I'm content with reaching the relative information about the bits of the universe that I find most interesting, and hope to add a few good and novel ones during the remainder of my lifetime. Two areas where a community helps are (a) finding the known ways blazed* and (b) avoiding becoming a crank. For the former it makes sense that one prefers to make good time. For the latter, finding a new way to get to new fields that may or may not be fertile may or may not be worth doing; finding a new way to get to existing fields that either (a) shaves trip time for those travelling light, or (b) is more easily passable for those travelling with a bunch of baggage, is definitely worth doing. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_blazing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_blazing EDIT: Tiger got to hunt; bird got to fly; man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep; bird got to land; man got to tell himself he understand.

Giorgi 3y ago

If "The Jungle Book" was written by Arabs.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
An Arab. I expect the Jungle Book would look quite different if it were written by another European, say Kafka for example.

Jun8 3y ago

Wow, the comparisons to The Jungle Book are interesting, this is a globally well-known philosophical work. For me two of the main points it analyzes are: 1. Can a person without language and without God’s Words transferred to him, reason and still find Him? Answer, of course, is yes. 2. Comparison between surface level understanding of the God’s Word vs. its “real,” hidden meaning. The two people Hayy meets symbolizes the two: Salaman, the first (representing the Sunni followers of Shariah) and Absal, the second (the Sufi, follower of the Tasawwuf). Hayy himself represents the Philosopher, I.e. pure reason. This dichotomy goes right to the heart of Islamic thought. Hayy, first tries to teach his understanding to the inhabitants of the island rules by Salaman but then sees the futility of it and leaves with Absal. Too bad the English Wikipedia page gives such a limited summary of the plot. Ibn Tufail based this novel on a story that was translated from Greek to Arabic by Hunayn Ibn Ishaq (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunayn_ibn_Ishaq).

GrantMoyer 3y ago

From summaries, it seems like the novel explores ideas of human exceptionalism, such as humans having an innate ability to understand the world using only their own abilities to observe and reason. Unfortunately, these ideas seem to be contradicted by real-world cases of feral children[1], such as the disturbing case of Genie[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)

wslh 3y ago
You are using a fallacy to probe the contrary: cherry picking specific cases. While we already know (based on history) that most of the time "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." it is also true that people such as Ramanujan could see beyond using a basic set of learnt tools. There are few exceptional people that have exceptional intuition for some topics.
slibhb 3y ago
I agree that the story in the linked article is fanciful. But I don't know if Genie's case is such a clear counterexample. She was horrifically abused; a child growing up with animals would be much better off.
water-data-dude 3y ago
I’d never heard about Genie before, that’s absolutely gut wrenching.