6 ms·

It pays off fast. For my situation in Washington, I'd be paying ~$4.50/gal for an ICE car that gets ~28mi/gal, or ~$0.11/KWh (at the tier-2 rate) for an EV that

by dymk 3y ago

It pays off fast. For my situation in Washington, I'd be paying ~$4.50/gal for an ICE car that gets ~28mi/gal, or ~$0.11/KWh (at the tier-2 rate) for an EV that gets 3.5mi/KWh. For the ICE car, that's ~6.2 mi/dollar, for the EV it's ~31.8 mi/dollar. ~5x cheaper per mile to drive the ICE. I drive ~15k miles per year, so ~$2.4k in gas, or $470 in electricity - saving ~$2k/year. This doesn't take into account the lower total cost of ownership of EVs in general. They're simple. They don't need oil changes. The transmission can't go out. And that's just for me driving once or twice a day; I'm sure the Amazon drivers are putting factors more miles on their cars, so a faster break-even point.

Kirby64 3y ago
It’s even better for delivery vans, too: EVs thrive in repeated stop-start conditions, which is what Amazon cans frequently do. It seems like only a matter of time before other similar vehicles that are more industrial make this shift (eg, garbage/recycling trucks). Imagine no more super loud garbage trucks in the mornings…
- organsnyder 3y ago
  Given the loudest part of garbage trucks around me is their brakes, I'm thrilled at the prospect of them getting regen.
  - briffle 3y ago
    I chatted with a friend who used to be a garbage man in a mid-sized west coast city. Most drivers in our area have a daily route, and when they are done, they are done, but paid for the whole's day work. So they have an incentive to floor the throttle, and slam the brakes. The drivers don't pay for fuel or brake pads out of their salary, the company does, but if they drive like a maniac, they can finish a few hours earlier.
    - aitchnyu 3y ago
      Are accelerometer logs widespread now? Even with 100 USD phone hardware, companies could check drivers are not causing too much wear or causing disomfort to passengers.
      - organsnyder 3y ago
        Probably not on the radar for many waste companies and municipalities. I'm pretty sure the passengers won't complain, either.
  - playingalong 3y ago
    Where I live the biggest noise is from the loading mechanism and the built in press.
    - organsnyder 3y ago
      That's not quiet, either. But the sounds from the brakes carry much further, at least for my city's fleet.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  We've had electric garbage trucks in Copenhagen since last year. It's a small but nice improvement. https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2023/silent-revolution-as-copenhagens-rubbish-trucks-goes-electric https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2023/s...
klooney 3y ago
Washington is sort of a best case though- you have pretty darn cheap electricity over there.
- foobarian 3y ago
  Would be a no-brainer to cover warehouses and parking lots with solar and charge the fleet yourself for even less.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Except the vehicles are probably in use during the daytime.
    - Retric 3y ago
      It’s common to have a mix where some trucks make 1 route per day and others do several. So you can optimize by rotating loading times, spare vehicles, and having some onsite batteries. Solar > battery means DC fast charging gets to skip AC>DC losses which are significant. But you don’t need to use 100% of solar’s output to save a lot of money.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Even if you’re not charging the fleet, you can power the warehouse. As long as you’re using less electricity from the grid overall per day, you’ll save money in the long run.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Energy costs in most of the US are favorable to this math. The cost of energy supply should be pushed down as renewable deployment continues indefinitely. https://www.globalenergyinstitute.org/average-electricity-retail-prices-map https://www.globalenergyinstitute.org/average-electricity-re...
  - bagels 3y ago
    California has a lot of renewables, but retail prices have increased rapidly.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
> The transmission can't go out. Are transmission failures really that common? In nearly fifty years of driving and owning eight different cars I've never had a transmission failure. One of the cars (Volvo Amazon estate car) did 350k miles including the previous owner rallying it for a couple of years. Apart from fixing a leaking radiator when I bought it I never had any problems with the motor or gearbox. We scrapped it just because my wife wanted a newer more comfortable car.
- chipsa 3y ago
  The one car that I sold because it died on me was due to transmission failure. I’m also at 8, and do not expect either of my current cars to ever have a transmission failure.
- toast0 3y ago
  Transmissions tend to have a lot of things that move around. Gears might be ok for a long time by themselves, but when there's gear selection, you get extra wear and tear when things don't meet up quite right. And everything gets hot, so you need lubricant/cooling and that can get gunked up by the wear and tear... And then sometimes things aren't built as designed. The ford HF35 hybrid transmission should be pretty reliable as designed, but many of them were built with bearings (or something) that went bad, leading to an early salvage date for many C-Maxes.
- nehal3m 3y ago
  I had a 2002 Saab 9-5 Sedan automatic transmission blow out on the day I bought it. ODO said about 300k km (190k miles give or take). The dealer replaced the car with a younger 9-5 Wagon with lower mileage so I'm kinda glad it did. That 2002 model is supposed to be a lemon transmission-wise though (even so, 300k seems decent as far as lifespans go).
- glial 3y ago
  I had a Chrysler van and had to replace the transmission twice. Glad to hear you've had better luck than I.
  - 3y ago
scoot 3y ago
You've no idea how spoiled you are with those prices. UK at current prices and exchange rates: Fuel: Petrol: (Gasoline) USD7.10/US Gallon Diesel: USD7.47/US Gallon Electricity: Domestic: USD0.36/KWh Charging network: USD0.70 - USD1.01/KWh
- fragmede 3y ago
  Then again, in San Francisco, I'm paying $0.51/kwh and $5.6/gallon
- JDTech123 3y ago
  As a note, I am on a tariff that is 7p/KWh (US0.09), 'off-peak', between the hours of 23:00-05:30 which makes it more affordable.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  We also have on average a lot further to go :)
tschwimmer 3y ago
I think you have a typo in your comment. You said that it’s 5x cheaper for ICE, but I think you meant electric
MBCook 3y ago
Where I am the electricity I use is makes it about 1/3 the cost to drive an EV over gas. But for Amazon their drivers are constantly doing stop/starts, which is horrible for fuel efficiency. So I bet their numbers are way better. And I wasn’t including maintenance which as you mentioned should be tremendous.
chatmasta 3y ago
The lower TCO depends on the intended lifetime of the vehicle. For delivery use cases where the expected lifetime is probably on the order of 5-10 years, it’s believable that TCO is lower. But if the expected lifetime is “as long as I can drive it,” then TCO is probably not lower, simply because the maximum lifetime of an EV is lower than that of an ICE vehicle. At some point the car will fail – it will need battery replacement (every X years), or it will depend on obsolete infrastructure, etc. You can drive a 1960 Cadillac today. Will you be able to drive a 2020 Tesla in 2084?

by dymk 3y ago

Kirby64 3y ago

It’s even better for delivery vans, too: EVs thrive in repeated stop-start conditions, which is what Amazon cans frequently do. It seems like only a matter of time before other similar vehicles that are more industrial make this shift (eg, garbage/recycling trucks). Imagine no more super loud garbage trucks in the mornings…

organsnyder 3y ago
Given the loudest part of garbage trucks around me is their brakes, I'm thrilled at the prospect of them getting regen.
- briffle 3y ago
  I chatted with a friend who used to be a garbage man in a mid-sized west coast city. Most drivers in our area have a daily route, and when they are done, they are done, but paid for the whole's day work. So they have an incentive to floor the throttle, and slam the brakes. The drivers don't pay for fuel or brake pads out of their salary, the company does, but if they drive like a maniac, they can finish a few hours earlier.
  - aitchnyu 3y ago
    Are accelerometer logs widespread now? Even with 100 USD phone hardware, companies could check drivers are not causing too much wear or causing disomfort to passengers.
    - organsnyder 3y ago
      Probably not on the radar for many waste companies and municipalities. I'm pretty sure the passengers won't complain, either.
- playingalong 3y ago
  Where I live the biggest noise is from the loading mechanism and the built in press.
  - organsnyder 3y ago
    That's not quiet, either. But the sounds from the brakes carry much further, at least for my city's fleet.
Symbiote 3y ago
We've had electric garbage trucks in Copenhagen since last year. It's a small but nice improvement. https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2023/silent-revolution-as-copenhagens-rubbish-trucks-goes-electric https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2023/s...

klooney 3y ago

Washington is sort of a best case though- you have pretty darn cheap electricity over there.

foobarian 3y ago
Would be a no-brainer to cover warehouses and parking lots with solar and charge the fleet yourself for even less.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Except the vehicles are probably in use during the daytime.
  - Retric 3y ago
    It’s common to have a mix where some trucks make 1 route per day and others do several. So you can optimize by rotating loading times, spare vehicles, and having some onsite batteries. Solar > battery means DC fast charging gets to skip AC>DC losses which are significant. But you don’t need to use 100% of solar’s output to save a lot of money.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Even if you’re not charging the fleet, you can power the warehouse. As long as you’re using less electricity from the grid overall per day, you’ll save money in the long run.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Energy costs in most of the US are favorable to this math. The cost of energy supply should be pushed down as renewable deployment continues indefinitely. https://www.globalenergyinstitute.org/average-electricity-retail-prices-map https://www.globalenergyinstitute.org/average-electricity-re...
- bagels 3y ago
  California has a lot of renewables, but retail prices have increased rapidly.

kwhitefoot 3y ago

> The transmission can't go out. Are transmission failures really that common? In nearly fifty years of driving and owning eight different cars I've never had a transmission failure. One of the cars (Volvo Amazon estate car) did 350k miles including the previous owner rallying it for a couple of years. Apart from fixing a leaking radiator when I bought it I never had any problems with the motor or gearbox. We scrapped it just because my wife wanted a newer more comfortable car.

chipsa 3y ago
The one car that I sold because it died on me was due to transmission failure. I’m also at 8, and do not expect either of my current cars to ever have a transmission failure.
toast0 3y ago
Transmissions tend to have a lot of things that move around. Gears might be ok for a long time by themselves, but when there's gear selection, you get extra wear and tear when things don't meet up quite right. And everything gets hot, so you need lubricant/cooling and that can get gunked up by the wear and tear... And then sometimes things aren't built as designed. The ford HF35 hybrid transmission should be pretty reliable as designed, but many of them were built with bearings (or something) that went bad, leading to an early salvage date for many C-Maxes.
nehal3m 3y ago
I had a 2002 Saab 9-5 Sedan automatic transmission blow out on the day I bought it. ODO said about 300k km (190k miles give or take). The dealer replaced the car with a younger 9-5 Wagon with lower mileage so I'm kinda glad it did. That 2002 model is supposed to be a lemon transmission-wise though (even so, 300k seems decent as far as lifespans go).
glial 3y ago
I had a Chrysler van and had to replace the transmission twice. Glad to hear you've had better luck than I.
- 3y ago

scoot 3y ago

You've no idea how spoiled you are with those prices. UK at current prices and exchange rates: Fuel: Petrol: (Gasoline) USD7.10/US Gallon Diesel: USD7.47/US Gallon Electricity: Domestic: USD0.36/KWh Charging network: USD0.70 - USD1.01/KWh

fragmede 3y ago
Then again, in San Francisco, I'm paying $0.51/kwh and $5.6/gallon
JDTech123 3y ago
As a note, I am on a tariff that is 7p/KWh (US0.09), 'off-peak', between the hours of 23:00-05:30 which makes it more affordable.
brianwawok 3y ago
We also have on average a lot further to go :)

tschwimmer 3y ago

I think you have a typo in your comment. You said that it’s 5x cheaper for ICE, but I think you meant electric

MBCook 3y ago

Where I am the electricity I use is makes it about 1/3 the cost to drive an EV over gas. But for Amazon their drivers are constantly doing stop/starts, which is horrible for fuel efficiency. So I bet their numbers are way better. And I wasn’t including maintenance which as you mentioned should be tremendous.

chatmasta 3y ago

The lower TCO depends on the intended lifetime of the vehicle. For delivery use cases where the expected lifetime is probably on the order of 5-10 years, it’s believable that TCO is lower. But if the expected lifetime is “as long as I can drive it,” then TCO is probably not lower, simply because the maximum lifetime of an EV is lower than that of an ICE vehicle. At some point the car will fail – it will need battery replacement (every X years), or it will depend on obsolete infrastructure, etc. You can drive a 1960 Cadillac today. Will you be able to drive a 2020 Tesla in 2084?