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House votes to ban TikTok in the U.S. if it's not sold
- Manchit 2y agoBanning each other makes us as mediocre, if not low, as our competitors.
- alsetmusic 2y agoThey can come together for culture war BS toward China / saber-rattling but there’s a complete inability to do anything to help citizens.
- robertoandred 2y agoDon’t pretend that the fake news and propaganda spread on TikTok doesn’t hurt citizens.
- vijaybritto 2y agoThat's not specific to tiktok
- cbarrick 2y agoGenuine question: is the fake news problem any worse on TikTok than it is on American-owned social media? Got stats?
- toomuchtodo 2y agoThis mole is fine to whack even if the rest aren’t addressed today. America has so many problems, a win is a win, even if hypocritical and disproportionate. The means are like making sausage, but the desired outcome is legit. Addressing TikTok today doesn’t prevent addressing domestic Big Tech going forward. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3354874/leaders-say-tiktok-is-potential-cybersecurity-risk-to-us/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/33... https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-ceo-shou-zi-chew-security-risk-cc36f36801d84fc0652112fa461ef140 https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-ceo-shou-zi-chew-security-... https://www.npr.org/2022/11/17/1137155540/fbi-tiktok-national-security-concerns-china https://www.npr.org/2022/11/17/1137155540/fbi-tiktok-nationa... https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/18/business/tiktok-search-engine-misinformation/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/18/business/tiktok-search-engine... https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/tiktok-and-facebook-fail-detect-election-disinformation-us-while-youtube-succeeds/ https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/t... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/10/majority-of-americans-say-tiktok-is-a-threat-to-national-security/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/10/majority-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133824
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://techcrunch.com/2024/04/22/tiktok-lite-dsa-probe/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/22/tiktok-lite-dsa-probe/
- asadotzler 2y agoYes, because when algos are manipulated to feature certain messages and influence certain topics, it's an adversarial country doing it. With US companies, that's not the case. You don't see that difference?
- alsetmusic 2y agoI doubt it. In fact, I think Tik-Tok is of concern because young people are outraged at what's happening in Gaza and the current leadership is committed to defending the oppressors. Sorry to bring politics in, but it's a political topic and I think this is much more of a motivator than any "fake" content.
- SV_BubbleTime 2y agoI don’t know why you think that is “real”. The vast majority of people making these posts didn’t care about Palestine last year and don’t really now. It’s all culture war and sign on to the latest thing to prove you are part of the group.
- Under15Chars 2y ago[flagged]
- squigz 2y agoIt's very important citizens are only exposed to domestic misinformation and propaganda.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- brink 2y agoI get that China is dangerous and TikTok is terrible for society, but this sets a dangerous precedent that the government can just ban any social media site it considers a threat now.
- echelon 2y agoChina bans our tech companies. You could think of this as simply retaliation for their protectionism. But having non-democratic, adversarial nations controlling the algorithm that programs us is quite scary. At large scale, that does something.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rahimnathwani 2y agoChina has laws that many foreign companies are unwilling to follow. That's not the same as having different standards for domestic and foreign companies.
- gretch 2y agoNo, it's not just following their laws. You literally have to operate through a Chinese owned joint venture company.
- rahimnathwani 2y ago"You literally have to operate through a Chinese owned joint venture company." Are you saying 100% of foreign-owned tech companies in China are operated via joint ventures?
- gretch 2y agoI can't speak for 100%. Maybe there's some small fish that flies under the radar (which is not the context of what tiktok is doing in the US). If you look at what Google was doing with project dragonfly (before it was shut down), they opened a JV to operate it: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-revealing-plans-to-closely-track-search-users-in-china/ https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r... This is generally true as well, though I do not have a source for the general law. But it obviously applies to Google
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- vsnf 2y agoI don't think TikTok is itself any worse than our own domestic brain liquefying apps like Twitter, and thus the ban's surface reasoning is specious at best, but I'm fully onboard with reciprocity. If China won't let US companies operate in China, the US shouldn't let Chinese companies operate in the US.
- SV_BubbleTime 2y agoThere is nothing TikTok can do that any other app on Apple or google can do. They could solve a lot of this in an instant; no one will propose limiting collection at the OS level. The US is fine with SV domestic spying, and not OK with China collecting this amount of information and having a massive “suggestive” social media platform. Sure, limit TikTok, whatever. I can see who really cares about what.
- concinds 2y agoThere's no "limiting collection". The valuable data is knowing what you watch. You can't stop the app from collecting that.
- anonzzzies 2y agoI think there is a lot more valuable data than just what you watch on social media platforms for different actors. If I am a burglar for instance, I want to collect what you post. Etc.
- h0l0cube 2y agoCollecting data isn’t so much the issue as having central control over the millions of information bubbles that people live in. Though that’s a power that Facebook, Xitter, and Instagram also have at their disposal
- gretch 2y ago> The US is fine with SV domestic spying, and not OK with China collecting this amount of information Yeah because at the end of the day SV is literally inside of the US and if e.g. a war started, we know what side they are going to be on. It's really not that hard to figure out. When the war starts, do we think Zuck and Tim Cook and the Google trio are going to defect to china?
- lordofgibbons 2y agoDoesn't this set a precedence for other countries to ban U.S based social media companies?
- Under15Chars 2y ago[flagged]
- bagels 2y ago"Just did"? Facebook has been banned since 2009 in China.
- Under15Chars 2y ago[flagged]
- dado3212 2y agoAdmittedly TikTok is China-owned, and China already bans multiple U.S. based social media companies.
- al_borland 2y agoHasn't China been doing that for years?
- SV_BubbleTime 2y agoIf they knew what was good for them maybe.
- abdullahkhalids 2y agoA number of countries already ban specific social media sites, including US based social media sites. In many cases, the core issue is that the country wants foreign social media sites to obey local laws and instructions on what to ban. And if the social media site refuses, it is just wholesale banned. Leaving aside whether this is good or bad, I do foresee a world in which there is diversity in the number of social media sites, and their usage divided along country lines.
- Under15Chars 2y ago[flagged]
- bagels 2y agoBecause TikTok is very popular and owned by a company in an adversarial nation?
- teamspirit 2y agoIs it so much about accumulating whatever data they can grab from their app or is it really more about having an adversary control the recommendation algorithm? I think the mass-calling campaign wasn't the best idea - it proved they could mobilize US citizens to a targeted cause, one directed at law makers at that. Get yourself banned speed run, any percent. edit: was -> wasn't
- matrix87 2y ago> we have just seen China take the predictable action of banning a bunch of applications, which will hurt American companies. Considering the current geopolitical climate, the fact that these companies are contributing to the Chinese economy negatively impacts national security and is socially irresponsible
- ken47 2y agoThis sets the precedent to do the exact same thing to domestic companies if the government feels that the public is being "manipulated," or data being used, in a way it doesn't like. If the rationale was solely tit for tat, "China does this to our tech companies, so we're simply doing the same," that would actually be significantly more palatable.
- asadotzler 2y agoNo it doesn't. It says foreign adversarial companies cannot target US children without facing scrutiny. That you've got your panties in a twist over that suggests you don't know the first thing about how international trade with hostile nations works, has worked, and will continue to work. I've got a word you should look up. It will open your mind in new ways. It's called "sovereignty" and you would benefit from learning what it means.
- ken47 2y agoThat's not what the narrative is (or is only a small part of it), and IMHO, that is at least as important as what is written in the bill.
- addcn 2y agoI heard inside info from the hill. Apparently a few weeks ago when TikTok got thousands of kids to call their congresspeople, it tipped a ton of the people on the fence to the “hell yes” category. Many offices got more calls than they do in a month that one day. TikTok showed how powerful it is, right there, right then. If China / TikTok hadn’t overplayed the hand, they wouldn’t lose this weapon. Now they likely will (good thing)
- Osmium 2y agoIt's interesting that this analysis implies intentionality on behalf of TikTok, and does not allow for the case that its users genuinely enjoy the service and therefore do not want to see it banned.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago> users genuinely enjoy the service and therefore do not want to see it banned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28133824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135592
- gretch 2y ago> do not want to see it banned It's not banned if they simply sell it. Let's see if the same volume of users mobilize to call tiktok HQ to please sell it, because they want to keep using it
- asadotzler 2y agoIf users want to keep using it, let them advocate for Bytedance to sell Tiktok to a US company.
- roshin 2y agoIf those voters put their money where their mouth is, and vote out the incubates, who went against their wishes, then the next congress will be full of new people.
- 2y ago
- anonym29 2y agoThe sad thing is, this bill isn't limited to Tik-Tok. The language was deliberately made overly broad. I would not be surprised if this is eventually used to force American-owned, American-controlled founders to divest ownership of their own companies because of actions taken by other people. There are two parties in this country, the stupid one and the evil one. Whenever they eagerly get together and push "bipartisan" legislation, that's when I worry the most about whatever stupid, evil thing they are up to these days.
- gretch 2y ago>If the company cannot sell the app in that time, it will become illegal for app stores and web-hosting companies to offer TikTok, as long as it remains under the control of a "foreign adversary." This is misinformation. The bill is about companies owned by a "foreign adversary" (literal wording of the bill, and enumerated examples in the bill itself). So please explain how this can ever be used against American owned companies.
- anonym29 2y agoWhen "foreign adversary" gets construed to mean anyone platforming a foreign adversary, or perhaps even merely just platforming American citizens with the views of a foreign adversary.
- Aloisius 2y agoThe bill only applies to applications operated or controlled by ByteDance, TikTok or any subsidiary/successor to ByteDance or TikTok or one controlled directly or indirectly by them. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr7521/text/rfs#link=2_g_3&nearest=HB5568894B1D94B058BC0D19DB8093F39 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr7521/text/rfs#l...
- anonym29 2y agoYour post is factually inaccurate. You're referring to section (g)(3)(A)(i) and (g)(3)(A)(ii). Those are two of the categories the bill applies to under (g)(3)(A), however, you've completely failed to mention the entirety of the (g)(3)(B) categories. Categories the bill also applies to per (g)(3)(B) that you did not mention include: (g)(3)(B)(i) - is controlled by a foreign adversary; and that is determined by the President to present a significant threat to the national security of the United States following the issuance of— (g)(3)(B)(i)(I) - a public notice proposing such determination; and (g)(3)(B)(i)(II) - a public report to Congress, submitted not less than 30 days before such determination, describing the specific national security concern involved and containing a classified annex and a description of what assets would need to be divested to execute a qualified divestiture. Maybe Biden decides that Hackernoon has users who are Russian state actors spreading "disinformation" (true, real, factual information that you were not supposed to know, like the lab leak hypothesis, Hunter Biden's laptop containing evidence of his corruption alongside a bunch of victimless "crimes", Nancy Pelosi committing illegal insider trading, Hilary Clinton operating an unlawful email server, etc), and therefore HN constitutes a "significant threat to the national security of the United States". That sounds unrealistic to you? How about that happening to a politically disfavored owner of a company that is already being routinely snubbed by the white house, like Musk/Twitter?
- greatpostman 2y agoThis is government censorship
- soramimo 2y agoChinese government censorship ;)
- ChrisArchitect 2y ago[dupe] Proper URL: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/20/1245594589/house-approves-bill-tiktok-ban https://www.npr.org/2024/04/20/1245594589/house-approves-bil... Discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40099350
- gjvc 2y ago[flagged]
- james4k 2y agoLet us lean into McCarthyism without hesitation. Nothing can go wrong.
- EasyMark 2y agoI prefer thinking of it as Doormat Diplomacy as in "we won't be your doormat"
- asadotzler 2y agoMcCarthyism wasn't about foreign companies targeting US children. Do you really think this is equivalent. Please consider before responding so as not to confirm our suspicions that you're just full of shit and don't know what McCarthyism actually was. I'll give you a clue, it was about AMERICANS, in government and other positions of authority. It wasn't about foreign companies that's for fucking sure.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- james4k 2y agoCan you describe how US children are being targeted?
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- hker 2y agoOn the other side, China blocks WhatsApp, Threads, Signal, Telegram on the Chinese App Store. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40085214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40085214 "Apple deletes WhatsApp, Threads from China app store on orders from Beijing" (110 points, 1 day ago, 127 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40092127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40092127 "Apple Pulls WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, and Threads from App Store in China" (7 points, 1 day ago, 6 comments)
- nunez 2y agoWhat stops the group of investors that acquires TikTok from having ByteDance US (or ByteDance Beijing) operate the platform behind the scenes? Why does some US entity that probably contributed nothing to TikTok's success get to financially benefit from acquiring TikTok by force? What good will having someone else operate TikTok (who might not be technically adept enough to do this) do to curb the propaganda concerns the US Gov is alleging? If the operator isn't a tech company that is comfortable with webscale, wouldn't propaganda accelerate? I really dislike TikTok's social influence (despite its engineering and AI contributions being technical marvels), but if the US Gov is really concerned about national security, they should just ban it; no sales.
- Simulacra 2y agoI think it will get sold pretty quickly. There's just too much money involved, too many Gen Z eyeballs, to go away. TikTok is a capitalist narcotic.
- incomingpain 2y ago> 360-to-58 vote, This is strong bipartisan support. In fact, I bet those 58 votes are now under investigation by more then the whips. Tiktok is going to be banned. As it should be no doubt.
- fallingfrog 2y agoIt’s fascinating to me how if elites care about something, it happens immediately, whereas if regular people care about it, it is difficult if not impossible to get done.
- adultSwim 2y agoWe reek of fear. Long-term this will hurt us. Our economic warfare is forcing the world to cut us out.
- sarimkx 2y agoReal reason why this is happening now. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-a...