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Europe gives TikTok 24 hours to explain 'addictive and toxic' new app
- afavour 3y agoSeems entirely reasonable to me. Make an app you market as suitable for teens, show your working that led you to decide that suitability.
- bongodongobob 3y agoIs it? That's entirely unprecedented. Teens are one of the biggest demographics for games. Are game developers now requires to be adolescent behavioralists? "EXPLAIN THIS FUN GAME!" "Well we wanted to make a fun game, so we made it fun." "THAT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!!"
- conradfr 3y agoVideo games have advisory ratings though.
- snehk 3y agoTikTok has a rating of 12+ on the app stor in EU.
- afavour 3y agoIn what way is assessing the age suitability of a game unprecedented? Games have had movie-like age guidelines for decades now. And besides: > The app is called TikTok Lite and offers the chance to "to complete challenging tasks and earn great rewards!" > Tasks include watching vids, liking content, or following other users. Rewards include Amazon vouchers, PayPal gift cards, or TikTok's in-app currency that can be used to tip other members. Is this a “game”? Really?
- bongodongobob 3y agoI was speaking in general terms. I suppose you could consider it one. I just don't see what all the hysteria is about.
- afavour 3y agoWell that makes sense, the problem is less visible when you generalize everything down to “an app” or “a game” or “a paper stick you put in your mouth”.
- yencabulator 3y agoIf TikTok made a "game" where you watch and click ads to earn gift cards, I do expect EU would also ask TikTok to "explain this so-called game".
- remedan 3y agoVideo games already have to prove their suitability to receive an age rating.
- skhunted 3y agoIf the game is deliberately made to be addictive, leads to emotional distress and is overall harmful then curbs should be put in place. Game developers should not be adolescent behavioralists; the regulators should be.
- arghwhat 3y agoI think you mean "explain this non-fun, stress-inducing addiction generator" "well, we wanted to make a lot of money with incredibly low effort, so we just found out how to best psychologically manipulate users into being unable to leave and stress them into giving us money while they're there in various ways." "wait why was this not already illegal" The difference to a game is that a game is first and foremost designed to be entertaining and the user starts playing and stick around with it because they like the entertainment. An addiction to a non-malicious game could be considered like an addiction to good food. Not great, but you're addicted to what you like. Some games (and foods) are more addictive than others, and some games are particularly malicious and are occasionally struck down against or hung out for their methods, but it's overall seen as okay. These apps are not meant to be entertaining. They use stress, FOMO or outright manipulation to make you return. This addiction is more like being addicted to cigarettes. One can argue whether even self-harm should be up to the individual, but no sane individual would argue that cigarettes are good or that tobacco companies are anything other than evil. If the cigarette was invented now, would we have allowed them to proliferate? Drawing the line is hard, and I don't like others making decisions for me, but I also don't like society forcing you to join an abusive platform as you'd otherwise miss out on whatever basic societal functions people put there, so enforcing that platforms play nice seems fair.
- _heimdall 3y agoThat's an extremely heavy burden that we've never forced on consumer products before. Requiring every company to prove why something us suitable for their market also means the government has absolute control over what is and isn't acceptable for any citizen to have access to. That's some seriously distopian shit in my opinion.
- _visgean 3y ago> Requiring every company to price why something us suitable for their market also means the government has absolute control they dont require every company. Just the largest in this segment.
- _heimdall 3y agoIs that limitation specifically defined in the law? I.e. does the law granting power to require this spell out how segments are defined and that only the largest by a specified metric can be regulated this way? Short of that its just a current norm for how the law is enforced. Nothing stops the next regulator from expanding that power.
- yencabulator 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Services_Act#Large_online_platforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Services_Act#Large_onl... ?
- _heimdall 3y agoMy understanding of the DSA is that its focused on content moderation and disclosure of how content algorithms work. Whether the content is addictive really isn't directly related, that's a measure of how users respond to the content rather than how its fed to them. That said, this app, like so many other social media apps, is trash. People should be choosing not to use it regardless of regulations.
- 3y ago
- INTPenis 3y agoThis really is starting to sound like all the hysteria from the 80s, 90s about Doom, baggy pants, gangster rap music, punk rock music, satanism in the woods, I could go on and on. Data collection is bad, and I wish I could raise kids without the need for smartphones, but it does feel a bit overkill now all this hysteria.
- jmathai 3y agoAs a parent today, I often wonder if my concerns are the same as every parent of prior generations and that things will turn out just fine. But I can’t shake the thought that the impact of social media and addictive games for some kids can’t be written off as just a phase they are going through. I worry so much that they will carry the negative impacts into adulthood.
- blitzar 3y agoWhat impact would it have on their development, relationships and prospects if they were not exposed to all the same things as their peers?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- timdiggerm 3y agoWhen considering that things in the past turned out "just fine", we should remember the concept of the Shifting Baseline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifting_baseline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifting_baseline
- poszlem 3y agoIt's also worth considering whether the concerns of previous generations were really as exaggerated as we think. We might believe that things "turned out just fine" simply because this is the world we're used to. However, it's possible that we're actually heading in the wrong direction, and many of those worries were - in fact - valid.
- thiago_fm 3y agoI think they should just ban Tiktok everywhere. If an App would be developed in Europe or in the US, it would have no chance against CCP in China, and possibly get copied and offered in China by a Chinese player. The West stance against China is laughable, we can't play democratic games against an autocracy, when we do, it happens what happened with Ukraine, it gets invaded.
- _heimdall 3y agoThe west needs to cut itself off from Chinese manufacturing before it can do anything meaningful, and that's no easy task. Much of the world has spent the last 80 years chasing globalization as the solution to avoiding nuclear war. I'm actually surprised it lasted this long, but that strategy was never going to be sustainable and we're seeing cracks really start to erode these days. To be clear though, China isn't going to invade the US. Invading your neighbor is hard enough, invading another super power on the other side of an ocean is impossible.
- riskeet 3y agoYikes
- bongodongobob 3y agoCool, now apply this scrutiny to Facebook, Instagram, video games, board games, card games, sports, my job, and capitalism in general. Every day I'm asked to do tasks for rewards. It's gotten to the point that if I don't, I can't survive.
- varjag 3y agoYou'll be relieved to learn that the EU regulates much of what you just listed.
- password54321 3y agoThe EU doesn't even understand half the things listed.
- varjag 3y agoWhen people say that they usually mean that the EU does not treat these issues as they think they rather should. Which is a matter of policy rather than comprehension naturally: all the things above are rather pedestrian concepts.
- password54321 3y agoThey aren't pedestrian and that's how you get ignorant people in charge of things they don't understand. Just because you saw a video of minecraft or played mario bros 30 years ago does not mean you now understand video games let alone know how to regulate it. Even if someone talked to some experts in the industry and received some data, that does not mean they now understand that field enough to make a valuable contribution.
- varjag 3y agoThe EU is not a dictatorship so decisions aren't made by one (incompetent or brilliant) person. And frankly gaming is not quite quantum field theory: if you can call yourself an expert at it so can thousands people working in the government really.
- richrichie 3y agoAnd yet alcohol is easy to get Europe …
- mavhc 3y agoBut that's a thing adults like, so it's ok, but what the teenagers like is confusing and different
- scaryclam 3y ago...to age restricted consumers, and in many European countries, with health warnings about over-consumption of alcohol
- richrichie 3y agoParents consume alcohol liberally at the dinner table in front of kids, while maintaining it is bad for them (kids). I have sat through many a French meals.
- GrumpySloth 3y agoThis should be fixed, not embraced.
- J_cst 3y agoAlcohol is definitely bad for kids and possibly It's also not great for adults, but let me tell you that you can consume alcohol without becoming an alcoholic. Many people can have a conscious consumption and enjoy it without having major short term or long term bad consequences. I said many, not everyone.
- timeon 3y agoAnd parents have phones with TikTok. What is your point? How is it relevant here?
- YurgenJurgensen 3y agoSo you're saying we should include a sin tax on social media revenue and require social media companies to obtain licenses before they can operate? Your terms are acceptable.
- blitzar 3y agoThe hypocrisy in the west is overwhelming sometimes. Why can we not just call a spade a shovel - its not really about this app it is about "China". Toxic and Addictive, collecting data, brainwashing people, propaganda etc is all fine when we do it. Go for it and ban it - but there is no need to treat everyone like an idiot with the stupid excuses.
- skhunted 3y agoOf course it’s better when we do it to ourselves than when an outsider does it. It’s rational for a country to prevent its main adversary from collecting massive amounts of data on its people and to prevent its adversary from getting people addicted to an app that has negative social consequences. After banning TikTok people will naturally start to wonder about regulating Facebook and other social media and this would be a good thing.
- jajko 3y agoEurope's main adversary and existential threat ain't no China, its russia. Has been, is and probably always will be. Next, at least historically, with a huge gap from first, would be Turkey. We are not top dog and thus don't compete with China in any way apart from usual economical stuff. I bet this move is more to please US to show we are still aligned, otherwise we would be banning all meta products and couple more left and right.
- skhunted 3y agoChina is an adversary to Europe. You may not see it as the main one but it is one. Don’t have to always target the main adversary. European security is dependent on American guarantees and as such it is in Europe’s interest to not deviate too far from America’s foreign policy goals. Especially when there is a major war going on in Europe caused by its main rival. Even so Europe has targeted America’s most powerful corporations for regulation. This is a good thing. Maybe America will someday follow Europe’s example.
- 3y ago
- GardenLetter27 3y agoSo now you need "risk assessment" just to publish a mobile phone app. The precautionary principle has destroyed the EU.
- mtmail 3y agoIf the mobile app makes 7.5 billion revenue or has 45m monthly active users, then the company should definitely do their risk assessment. That's the exception though and doesn't affect many mobile phone apps. https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-designates-six-gatekeepers-under-digital-markets-act-2023-09-06_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-designat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act#Criteria_defining_Gatekeepers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act#Criteria_d...
- rsynnott 3y agoYou do if you’re a massive social media company, yes. Really huge companies are treated specially under the new rules.
- alkonaut 3y agoWhy are you assuming that regulation that applies to a billion dollar company would apply to everyone? Isn't it way more useful to just regulate the large players? Small players can't make a lot of damage, and the cost of regulation in an entire market (millions of apps) is huge compared to regulating maybe a dozen apps with a half billion users.
- timeon 3y ago> "risk assessment" just to publish a mobile phone app No wonder when dark patterns become norm.
- rapnie 3y agoThe EU asking questions is dystopian? Hysteria like in the 80s and 90s? Or is it good to ask some proper questions before some huge enterprise unfolds their social credit system?
- niemandhier 3y agoThis sounds like either gambling or large scale behaviour modification by conditioning. At least in the EU those things are regulated, so it’s not particularly surprising the that the EU gets involved. The speed is unusual, it probably would have taken month if this was American and not Chinese.
- rsynnott 3y agoNah, the EU is being very aggressive with the DMA and DSA. See the whole Apple thing, Facebook delaying the launch of Threads in Europe to make DSA-friendly changes (mostly the ability to browse without a login wall) etc. All this for rules that have only been in force for a few months. I think the EC has learned its lesson from the GDPR; “you might one day be fined, maybe in five years” (Facebook, say, was recently fined a billion of so for behaviour going back years) is not a sufficient deterrent.
- t4ng0pwn3d 3y agoThe reviews on the app are wild - people talking about loving getting paid a couple bucks for watching it all day, and that it's their new side gig. It's pretty sad, to be honest. Get outside and live life! (Or stay inside and live life, but we need to get away from this dopamine high of doom scrolling)
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