5 ms·

Canoes discovered northwest of Rome are oldest boats ever found in Mediterranean

118 points by bryanrasmussen 3y ago

spenczar5 3y ago
> Because the original discovery of La Marmotta had only ever been published in the Italian language, widespread study of the canoes and their place in history remained limited. But now that a team of international researchers revisited the site and published their findings in English in the journal PLOS One, scientists around the world are learning about the boats for the first time—and the bustling, sophisticated Mediterranean trade they suggest. Wow, we have reached meta-archaeology already: we have to do research to “discover” our own research from 35 years ago.
- gtmitchell 3y ago
  This is far more common that you would think. Just a generation ago, science degrees required students to learn foreign languages (Russian, German, French, etc.) so they could read journals to be kept up to date on the latest scientific findings. There are still a significant number of 'lost' research out there waiting to be rediscovered and publicized.
  - interactivecode 3y ago
    Now that would be a good use of high quality translation tech: make research available and searchable across languages.
  - irrational 3y ago
    I have a Bachelors degree in Ancient Near Eastern Studies. I was told that if I wanted to do a graduate degree, I would have to learn to read French and German since the majority of research was written in those languages.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  'twas ever thus. When I was at university we were told "two years in the laboratory can save you an hour in the library". You always need to research your research.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  Makes all the sci-fi plots about lost tech and such sound a little less nutty. We actually do this, just not in the way movies and such typically present it.
gumby 3y ago
Looks like boats date back about 12 Ky: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Prehistoric_Craft/index.html https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Prehisto... Seems odd that a technical revolution of some profound technologies (e.g. ships, agriculture, stable settlements, apparently novel social structures) seems to have started that millennium, leading to relatively rapid technological development up to today. The first ~260 Ky of human development seems to have resulted in less technological development then that single millennium.
- peterfirefly 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human#Anatomical_modernity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human#Anatomical_... Anatomically modern humans didn't have much of a chance to develop until we got some decent weather.
  - gumby 3y ago
    Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that. Even during the last glacial maximum there was a lot of inhabitable terrain.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Indeed evidence points to the west coast of North America being colonized by boats while glaciers were still covering much of the continent. And that likely predates this find probably by at least 3-4 thousand years. Still no smoking gun in terms of firm archaeological finds but that's because that coastline is all dozens of feet underwater now.
      - gumby 3y ago
        3-4 Ky before this find is about the age of the oldest boats found so far.
      - angiosperm 3y ago
ijustlovemath 3y ago
Anyone interested in this sort of pre-LGM history should read Origin by Dr. Jennifer Raff. She compiles a lot of the latest research (as of 2022) and gives some pretty compelling insight into the early peopling of the Americas
cosbgn 3y ago
I live here!
ojo-rojo 3y ago
> now that a team of international researchers revisited the site and published their findings in English in the journal PLOS One, scientists around the world are learning about the boats for the first time It's regrettable that research had to be published in a specific language for scientists to leverage. Maybe recent advances with language models can change the game here and make knowledge more accessible across all fields.
- Staple_Diet 3y ago
  >It's regrettable that research had to be published in a specific language for scientists to leverage. Not really. ~70 million people read Italian. Billions read English. The biggest journals are English language. Most of Europe learn English. Chinese academics learn to write in English, and English is the official language of India. It'd be regrettable if they had to publish in Science/Nature to get noticed, but PLOS One is pretty open.
  - swores 3y ago
    I don't think they were complaining that the world didn't read the Italian research, just that it's a shame that people from non-English speaking countries have to either be good enough at a second language to write their research in English, or need to waste time waiting for someone else to translate. Along with hope that machine translation can fix this problem and remove hurdles for international collaboration.
    - Staple_Diet 3y ago
      It's near impossible to work as a professional academic without learning English well enough to publish in it. Furthermore, in many fields you need to move countries during your academic journey and learn a language. For example my previous PI was Spanish (Catalonian actually) but did his PhD in Paris, so he needed to learn three languages in addition to his native tongue. Other lab members were French, Italian and German, all again having to have learnt English so they could each communicate with each other but also publish. The international collaboration is already there, and it's aided, not hindered, by the use of English as a common tongue. It's a two way street as well, if an academic can't read English than they effectively cut themselves off from 95% of the research in their field, and most certainly the most impactful research. Lastly, most journals offer paid translation services and a lot of Universities will similarly offer a service, so it's almost a moot point.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Yet another datapoint that shows people were more sophisticated than previously assumed; this is likely not isolated, it's just that there's nothing left. I had to look up the definitions, but these canoes are from what we know as the stone age. I don't believe the type of metal used was indicative of people's craftsmanship to be honest.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  > Yet another datapoint that shows people were more sophisticated than previously assumed Not really, simple boats and canoes predate this find by at least 5-6k years. The earliest depiction of a boat under sail predates this canoe by maybe 1-2 thousand years. The Austronesian peoples were setting sail around the time this canoe was built.
  - angiosperm 3y ago
    People were navigating out of sight of land, and reached Australia tens of thousands of years before this. They might have reached North America, too. Anyway we know people got there because they butchered the Hartley mammoth 37kya.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  'Stone age' is a very broad term. Usually it's described in two periods, the Paleolithic during which tools were made by chipping stones to form edges and points, with dates back to the first stone tools (2.6 million years ago, or possibly 3.3 mya based on newish evidence); and the Neolithic, when tools were made by grinding and polishing and also when plants were domesticated (~11,700 years ago, afaik). There's also mesolithic, inserted between those two, though I haven't heard it used much.

> Because the original discovery of La Marmotta had only ever been published in the Italian language, widespread study of the canoes and their place in history remained limited. But now that a team of international researchers revisited the site and published their findings in English in the journal PLOS One, scientists around the world are learning about the boats for the first time—and the bustling, sophisticated Mediterranean trade they suggest. Wow, we have reached meta-archaeology already: we have to do research to “discover” our own research from 35 years ago.

gtmitchell 3y ago
This is far more common that you would think. Just a generation ago, science degrees required students to learn foreign languages (Russian, German, French, etc.) so they could read journals to be kept up to date on the latest scientific findings. There are still a significant number of 'lost' research out there waiting to be rediscovered and publicized.
- interactivecode 3y ago
  Now that would be a good use of high quality translation tech: make research available and searchable across languages.
- irrational 3y ago
  I have a Bachelors degree in Ancient Near Eastern Studies. I was told that if I wanted to do a graduate degree, I would have to learn to read French and German since the majority of research was written in those languages.
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
'twas ever thus. When I was at university we were told "two years in the laboratory can save you an hour in the library". You always need to research your research.
DoreenMichele 3y ago
Makes all the sci-fi plots about lost tech and such sound a little less nutty. We actually do this, just not in the way movies and such typically present it.

gumby 3y ago

Looks like boats date back about 12 Ky: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Prehistoric_Craft/index.html https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships/Prehisto... Seems odd that a technical revolution of some profound technologies (e.g. ships, agriculture, stable settlements, apparently novel social structures) seems to have started that millennium, leading to relatively rapid technological development up to today. The first ~260 Ky of human development seems to have resulted in less technological development then that single millennium.

peterfirefly 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human#Anatomical_modernity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human#Anatomical_... Anatomically modern humans didn't have much of a chance to develop until we got some decent weather.
- gumby 3y ago
  Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that. Even during the last glacial maximum there was a lot of inhabitable terrain.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Indeed evidence points to the west coast of North America being colonized by boats while glaciers were still covering much of the continent. And that likely predates this find probably by at least 3-4 thousand years. Still no smoking gun in terms of firm archaeological finds but that's because that coastline is all dozens of feet underwater now.
    - gumby 3y ago
      3-4 Ky before this find is about the age of the oldest boats found so far.
    - angiosperm 3y ago

ijustlovemath 3y ago

Anyone interested in this sort of pre-LGM history should read Origin by Dr. Jennifer Raff. She compiles a lot of the latest research (as of 2022) and gives some pretty compelling insight into the early peopling of the Americas

cosbgn 3y ago

I live here!

ojo-rojo 3y ago

> now that a team of international researchers revisited the site and published their findings in English in the journal PLOS One, scientists around the world are learning about the boats for the first time It's regrettable that research had to be published in a specific language for scientists to leverage. Maybe recent advances with language models can change the game here and make knowledge more accessible across all fields.

Staple_Diet 3y ago
>It's regrettable that research had to be published in a specific language for scientists to leverage. Not really. ~70 million people read Italian. Billions read English. The biggest journals are English language. Most of Europe learn English. Chinese academics learn to write in English, and English is the official language of India. It'd be regrettable if they had to publish in Science/Nature to get noticed, but PLOS One is pretty open.
- swores 3y ago
  I don't think they were complaining that the world didn't read the Italian research, just that it's a shame that people from non-English speaking countries have to either be good enough at a second language to write their research in English, or need to waste time waiting for someone else to translate. Along with hope that machine translation can fix this problem and remove hurdles for international collaboration.
  - Staple_Diet 3y ago
    It's near impossible to work as a professional academic without learning English well enough to publish in it. Furthermore, in many fields you need to move countries during your academic journey and learn a language. For example my previous PI was Spanish (Catalonian actually) but did his PhD in Paris, so he needed to learn three languages in addition to his native tongue. Other lab members were French, Italian and German, all again having to have learnt English so they could each communicate with each other but also publish. The international collaboration is already there, and it's aided, not hindered, by the use of English as a common tongue. It's a two way street as well, if an academic can't read English than they effectively cut themselves off from 95% of the research in their field, and most certainly the most impactful research. Lastly, most journals offer paid translation services and a lot of Universities will similarly offer a service, so it's almost a moot point.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

Yet another datapoint that shows people were more sophisticated than previously assumed; this is likely not isolated, it's just that there's nothing left. I had to look up the definitions, but these canoes are from what we know as the stone age. I don't believe the type of metal used was indicative of people's craftsmanship to be honest.

ch4s3 3y ago
> Yet another datapoint that shows people were more sophisticated than previously assumed Not really, simple boats and canoes predate this find by at least 5-6k years. The earliest depiction of a boat under sail predates this canoe by maybe 1-2 thousand years. The Austronesian peoples were setting sail around the time this canoe was built.
- angiosperm 3y ago
  People were navigating out of sight of land, and reached Australia tens of thousands of years before this. They might have reached North America, too. Anyway we know people got there because they butchered the Hartley mammoth 37kya.
wolverine876 3y ago
'Stone age' is a very broad term. Usually it's described in two periods, the Paleolithic during which tools were made by chipping stones to form edges and points, with dates back to the first stone tools (2.6 million years ago, or possibly 3.3 mya based on newish evidence); and the Neolithic, when tools were made by grinding and polishing and also when plants were domesticated (~11,700 years ago, afaik). There's also mesolithic, inserted between those two, though I haven't heard it used much.