13 ms·

Dan Benjamin: Regarding The Talk Show

243 points by ehed 14y ago

ehed 14y ago
Dan Benjamin is a class act.
orta 14y ago
Summary: Dan used to listen to podcasts daily, used to get a real feel for the people he was listening too. So he thinks it's a bit of a shame they can't even do a "one last show." But he wishes all the best. I love listening to 5by5 episodes. Mainly the siracusa one, and at some point I'll check out Grubers new podcast. My thoughts are that losing Dan from the show is a negative, he's a great speaker with a soothing voice and I enjoy the smalltalk he makes.
- ehed 14y ago
  It's really going to be a different show now. But John clearly has a completely refreshed voice in the new series, it seems like the move is going to be a net gain for everyone. Many others have pointed out that TTS on 5by5 has not been the same recently. I look forward to listening to the new TTS even though it won't be the same.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - alphang 14y ago
    Agreed, I actually really enjoy Gruber's tone on the new show. I'd guess a part of this may be that Gruber wants an editorial reboot with the new show, so that he has more control and it directly complements Daring Fireball (Note the new description: "Sort of like the director's commentary track for Daring Fireball.") I actually look forward to it. Dan's a good host on other shows, and a class act, but I've felt that he and Gruber lacked chemistry for a long time.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I think what Dan does really well is give his co-hosts room to do their thing. He's not got a huge ego, he knows for the most part it's not about him, but he's a great solid foil for others, providing structure. I think you can only get away with being opinionated and outspoken if you have someone like Dan next to you as a balance and a tether.
m_pond 14y ago
Dan truly is a class act. His shows have been a huge source of insight and entertainment to me over the last few years. I'm clicking the "Donate" button on the 5by5 site.
ZanderEarth32 14y ago
Not exactly the drama I think everyone was looking for, but I never expected any reaction other than this from Dan. Whether this is the 100% complete truth, we'll never know and we shouldn't care. Time to move on folks, nothing else to see here.
- chmars 14y ago
  John Gruber is free to tell his side of the story. Anyway, I agree with you that is is time to move. As a listener, I am mainly happy that more and more successful podcast networks appear in the US and elsewhere.
  - ehed 14y ago
    I posted this in the thread from Friday, but think it's worth mentioning again - if you listen to the last few minutes, starting with where Dan mentions the t-shirts, it seems like John was offended by the jokes made at his expense (e.g. not wearing a shirt). Maybe it was the kind of thing that had been accumulating, as I know Dan has made offhand cracks in the past, and perhaps this was the last straw. I believe John felt disrespected/unappreciated, for the last time it seems.
miketucker 14y ago
Striking juxtaposition of this statement to the "new" Talk Show, (http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/1/ http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/1/) in which Gruber makes zero mention of Dan or his decision to move on, and instead chooses to start things off talking about.. baseball.
- gaving 14y ago
  I don't think that's fair since neither party had said anything about the split before that went live. Now that Dan's expressed his thoughts, I wonder if John will do the same.
  - thomasjoulin 14y ago
    Nonetheless Gruber comes out as a jerk... If it was indeed his decision, he should have handled it a little better with Benjamin (telling him sooner, organizing a last show, not reusing the TTS name on mule...), and even if one can argue that he doesn't owe the listener anything, an explanation in the introduction of the new show would have made a good segue...
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      I find it surprising that so many people are willing to say that Gruber has acted like a jerk. If anyone has the right to be pissed it'd Dan, yet he seems to be fine (if disappointed) with what's happened. If he's not calling Gruber a jerk I think the rest of us should take our lead there - after all, he knows more than any of us and is personally involved in the whole thing.
      - thomasjoulin 14y ago
        Well, I'm certainly not as classy as Dan, kudos to him. But I don't see the point of hiding my disappointment just because I don't know them personally. As Dan said, when you listen to people on the radio every week, you feel close to them. The way it was handled lacked class. Calling Gruber a jerk is just an habit of exaggerating thing on the Internet I guess... We're not entitled to an explanation or a goodbye, but that's the difference between classy a douchy IMO.
mchanson 14y ago
Dan seems conflicted over how it went down, but I'm left feeling this statement shows he is quite angry with John and begrudges how John handled things (no last show and re-using the show name). I disagree this is a 'classy' statement (because of the criticism of his ex-co-host). I think its trying to be a straightforward telling of Dan's perspective without him being too emotional. I think its pretty good for that. Would love for all parties to to be as open and honest as they can as it will make for compelling radio! Disclosure: I'm a $5 a month subscriber to 5by5, a Gruber fan, and a big fan of Let's Make Mistakes (and Mike in general).
- f1nch3r 14y ago
  You can criticize and remain classy. I think Dan did that in this statement.
  - Tloewald 14y ago
    I agree, and if it's true that John took the show's name without even giving Dan advance notice let alone asking permission, then I'm disappointed. I'm curious in general about mule's split from Dan. I loved the original "fuck you, pay me" but never got into "let's make mistakes" and was surprised that they split off 5by5 (and now appear to be poaching) but I'd like to hear the other side...
    - guywithabike 14y ago
      Let's Make Mistakes didn't "split off". They paid to be on the 5by5 network and once they established themselves, they moved it to their own network. No funny business there, basically.
      - awolf 14y ago
        I've been curious about that myself. You say that Mike and Katy paid to be on 5by5. How do you know this? I would assume that the arrangement would simply to have shared a portion of the sponsorship money with 5by5.
chmars 14y ago
'My friend John Gruber' etc. without any restriction – I'm very happy to hear that at least Dan Benjamin still sees John Gruber as a friend. Dan Benjamin has really class, even in a situation that can't be easy for him.
zachwill 14y ago
Dan's a class act.
rkudeshi 14y ago
Summary for anyone who can't listen: * Dan says John emailed him and just said it was time to move on and try something new. Dan says he has total respect and understanding for that. * Dan says he thought if they weren't doing the show anymore, they would retire it together. Surprised and disappointed that John's doing the show on his own and re-using the name. * Dan wishes they could have done one last episode to reminisce (120 previous episodes) and to thank the fans. * Dan encourages fans to listen to the new show at muleradio.net. * No other sordid details, just some personal anecdotes. I've never listened to any 5by5 podcasts on 5by5, but Dan Benjamin comes across in this audio clip as a total class act.
- pwthornton 14y ago
  Dan has always come across as one of the classiest guys on the Internet. I am genuinely sad to see this happen to him.
  - woe 14y ago
    ... and John has always come across as one of the Internet's premier jackasses. (I'm tempted to add "I am genuinely sad to see this happen to him" but that would overstate how much I care for the sake of a cheap chuckle.)
- georgespencer 14y ago
  Like everyone is saying, Dan comes across really well in this. I don't expect JG will ever give us his take. RE: never listening to any 5by5 podcasts–I listened to The Talk Show a few times. Maybe it's because I'm used to the dogma of professional broadcasting, but I don't think you've missed out unless you like hearing a couple of guys pause a hell of a lot during an awkward conversation. Almost every episode I heard started with an entirely charmless "Uh, hello?" "Uh is this on?" scenario. I guess part of the appeal was that it was folksy and just a conversation.
  - pwthornton 14y ago
    I think a big part of the appeal of podcasts is that they don't seem like overproduced, substance-less radio. Gruber has some genuinely good insights, particularly about Apple. I also appreciate that this wasn't some overproduced show with sound effects everywhere.
nicholassmith 14y ago
It's a shame, but they'd had a long run of shows, Gruber clearly wanted to do something else which is fine. Could he have handled it better? Sure, of course. Plus they're still friends on Twitter, and we all know that it's only serious if you unfollow.
- zooey 14y ago
  "and we all know that it's only serious if you unfollow." eheheheh
pohl 14y ago
Jonathan Mann wrote a song about the demise of The Talk Show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2yG6FdfPs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2yG6FdfPs http://www.jonathanmann.net/ http://www.jonathanmann.net/
- ralfd 14y ago
  This is brilliant! Especially love the "And Gruber's I don't knowing" line. Cracks me up.
znake 14y ago
This shows again that Dan is one of the coolest podcasters ever! Thank you Dan and Gruber for the countless hours in my ears :)
AllenKids 14y ago
I was prepared to hate the new talk show and Mule Radio Syndicate, but to my surprise, John Gruber sound a lot more energetic than pretty much the last year, now if he can get a co-host to rein him in from time to time and at the same time contribute his/her own thoughts... I think Massimo and Julia from "Rationally Speaking" are a perfect couple. Leo LePorte and Dan Benjamin are total nice guys but seldom say anything insightful, they generally just make light jokes and move the topic along. I skipped "Let's make mistakes" for nearly half a year before yesterday, they've gotten better I'll have to say. All in all John Gruber probably was being an ass, now he can be as much of an ass as he want. He can't beat Mike Monteiro on that front. I enjoy asses.
- mbrd 14y ago
  I don't think Dan's ability to "move the topic along" should be underestimated. It's a real skill to be able to give a discussion somewhat on topic and on time and he is excellent at it. I can't imagine trying to get even 20 minutes of useful content from Merlin Mann but Dan does it every week on Back to Work!
  - swombat 14y ago
    Actually, I tried a couple of the "talk show" podcasts and found them incredibly boring. Somehow instead of there being any density of insight or intelligence it was just a couple of people talking about random crap. I've listened to other podcasts, e.g. with Merlin or Marco or "the other John", and those were much better, but it didn't feel to me like Gruber and Benjamin added up to something worth listening to.
  - AllenKids 14y ago
    But almost all the 5by5 major shows are horribly overtime. Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyse, the once Talk Show, every host other than Dan is rambling, on and on and on and on for hours. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, 5by5 podcasts are background noises when I walking around the city, doing chores etc. But information densities are really low (Back to Work is an exception but per Merlin's style it's so all over the places, after a while you just give up caring.)
timkeller 14y ago
The classiest guy in podcasting. Bravo Sir.
- bruceclark 14y ago
  Leo Laporte is pretty damn classy. But do I agree this was a class-act thing to do for the listeners of 5by5.
  - camflan 14y ago
    Really? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-accidentally-broadcasts-explicit-sex-chat-massive-online-audience.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-ac... Dan seems like the real deal.
    - runjake 14y ago
      I have no real idea of who Leo Laporte is, but the article you pasted doesn't paint him in a negative light to me. He was separated from his wife for a year, and has (apparently openly) been dating this other woman. Some of their personal chat was accidentally displayed "on the air". So where's the problem and how is it any of our business? And more importantly, how does it reflect badly on him?
mustpax 14y ago
Gruber is taking a page out of the Apple PR book by not saying anything, unless there is something good to be said. This may help move the news cycle along but it's still no way to treat a friend.
- mturmon 14y ago
  He's not exactly "not saying anything". The top link on DF ("Why wasn't I consulted", a 16-month old piece) could be interpreted as a reply. Follow the attribution link and read: "Apropos of nothing. Ahem."
  - rjj 14y ago
    Excellent point. The title of the article which he craftily links to is "The Odd World of Digital Groupies". It's 2.5 years old and has the bolded subtitle " Obsessed fans spend hours online trying to talk to their rock gods—and sometimes, the efforts turn toxic. Doree Shafrir goes inside the bizarre world of extreme internet fandom."
    - protomyth 14y ago
      When you live your life off the advertising dollars directed at your audience, it seems like an odd way of commentary.
      - achompas 14y ago
        Right. I hope this isn't Gruber's intent, given that he monetizes his brand (i.e. him) by selling shirts and appearing at conferences. You can't really dictate the terms for interaction when you when you're such a public figure. If he is saying what GP is suggesting, well, that's the problem with building a cult of personality around yourself: people might buy in a bit too fervently.
        slantyyz 14y ago
        Gruber used to have a lot of interesting stuff to say. In the same way that Jay Leno used to be one of the funniest comics in the 80s and now resorts to Jaywalking to keep his audience, I find DF to be a little boring, consisting of mainly claim chowder, Android schadenfreude, and the occasional long winded rant essay that goes nowhere.
simonh 14y ago
Does anyone else find it amusing that the title of the latest post on daring Fireball is "Why wasn't I consulted?".
- Hontano 14y ago
  I read both "What wasn't I consulted?" and "Behind a Press Release" as being very directed at this situation, neither of which were classy ways for Gruber to handle it, just snide allusions. Dan's short message was pure class.
  - chucknelson 14y ago
    Snide allusions indeed. I don't understand why it's so difficult for Gruber to be a little more polite about his response. I'm sure what he is receiving from listeners is definitely not polite, but he has the audience, so I think he should have a higher standard to maintain.
- barredo 14y ago
  A year old article about "internet people" having some sense of entitlement about other's work? Hardly a coincidence. It's Gruber's answer to the HN thread & tweets of last week.
  - nickmain 14y ago
    One of the tweets that John chose to retweet was a reference to Joan Rivers leaving Johnny Carson - https://twitter.com/#!/dr_mind_bender/status/203903404953714689 https://twitter.com/#!/dr_mind_bender/status/203903404953714... It seems that he thinks of podcasts like late night TV - where the audience is just an abstract statistic. In Dan's response above he makes a reference to drive-time radio talk shows and the sense of relationship (albeit one-way) that comes from that medium. He sees his audience as individual people whereas John only sees the audience as a revenue source.
  - eduo 14y ago
    The article, though, is spot-on. The problem, to my eyes, is that it doesn't really vibe with the situation. People are not complaining that they didn't have a say. Most people I've read seem to understand the reasoning behind the initial decision. What the complaints are about are not about John's decision to leave 5by5 but about the dickish way he decided to do it. Being a bigger dick afterwards by implying he can do whatever he wants with his podcast (won't even go into how bad it looks that he sees TTS as "his" podcast and not the job of the two, regardless of him being the star host) doesn't help. The wording of the announcement and the hyperbole he lavishes muleradio with make the whole thing even worse.
moron 14y ago
I like Gruber's writing and often chafe at some of the less-insightful things people have to say about him, but I agree 100% with Dan here. It would have been right for Gruber and him to properly cap off the show for the listeners. It would have been right to acknowledge that it really isn't the same show anymore. In addition, it would have been right for Gruber to say how great of a co-host Dan has been, because he has been. But none of those things happened, and that is shitty. There's really no two ways about it. This isn't about "I wasn't consulted". This is about respect for the audience and saying at least a few words to them, for crying out loud. It's about acting like they matter just a little. What exactly is The Talk Show, or any show, without listeners? This isn't taking a page out of the Apple PR book -- Apple actually does explain their reasoning for why they do things, when those things affect how people relate to what they make.
- tjogin 14y ago
  I agree, but on the other hand, Dan always says "it's your show" whenever they need to make a decision about something. Dan also often refrains from correcting or informing Gruber at times when he's unsure or is wrong about something, much to Gruber's disappointment the following episode when Gruber has found it out, again with Dan excusing himself with saying "it's your show". If I were to venture a guess, Gruber would prefer a co-host that contributes to, rather than mostly guides, the conversation.
  - meej 14y ago
    I would venture a similar guess. I haven't listened to The Talk Show, but I did listen to The Critical Path with Horace Dedieu for its first few months and based on that I would say that Benjamin isn't even that great of a guide -- I often found his questions and reactions to Dedieu to be naive or uninformed, which eventually irritated me out of listening. His voice is nice to listen to, but I'm not terribly interested in what he has to say.
pjbeardsley 14y ago
You have to wonder if John expected this level of backlash. It reminds me of LeBron James' "The Decision" in a lot of ways. He may be good, but he'll never be loved.
mahmud 14y ago
Who listens to IT podcasts? the world is full of rich and wonderful media broaden your horizons, listen to something that isn't backdated garbage. Imagine all the music genres you could discover, educational materials, languages you could learn, audiobooks ..
- gizmo 14y ago
  Hypercritical (by 5by5) is actually very good. Amazingly, you argue that people should broaden their horizons (i.e. don't be closeminded) and yet you blindly dismiss IT podcasts completely as back-dated garbage. Discarding whole categories of self-expression/content as crap is the very definition of close-mindedness. Oh, the irony. Maybe people listen to IT podcasts because they like to. It needs no further justification.
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  > Who listens to IT podcasts? the world is full of rich and wonderful media broaden your horizons, listen to something that isn't backdated garbage. Imagine all the music genres you could discover, educational materials, languages you could learn, audiobooks .. I don't listen to music, watch TV/movies (except Kubrick's), waste time with friends more than it is necessary/useful (I enjoy being with friends/family, but not 10 hours a day), and spend most of my spare time reading HN, tech blogs (not TechCrunch, but developers' blogs), listening to audiobooks (to improve my English, as I'm not native), watch educational materials (Both academic, like those from MIT, Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley and technical screencasts, like those of PeepCode). I said it because I wanted you to know that I try very very hard to spend my time on something useful/informative. And I can tell you that Dan's other show with John Siracusa (of Ars Technica), Hypercritical[1] is so far from backdated garbage that it's not even funny. Every week, Friday nights, I spend about 2 hours listening to him and I don't regret it one bit. I learned a lot from him. If you're not familiar with television technology for example (like me), listen to episode 16, 'The Soap Opera Effect'[2]. You'll learn many new things. It's not his best episode, but I think by listening to that you'll understand what his show is about. [1]: http://5by5.tv/hypercritical http://5by5.tv/hypercritical [2]: 5by5.tv/hypercritical/16
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
filmgirlcw 14y ago
Disclosure: Dan is my friend. He's actually one of my best friends. I know far more about this situation than most, I am not unbiased. I love Dan for doing this. I think it was the right way to address listeners and also express himself on the topic. John doesn't need to give his take if he doesn't want to -- and I don't think anyone would expect him to. People do expect more transparency with Dan, and that's why, however uncomfortable this might have been to discuss, I'm glad Dan took the time to do. In my professional life, I spend a lot of time analyzing, criticizing and discussing various PR maneuvers of major companies and brands. To me, it's always telling to see how a company or brand deals with a difficult situation. I think Dan's approach here (and again, I'm totally biased -- though I try to look at this objectively and out of the lens of "my friend") was a great example of how to deal with a private business situation that becomes public. No one is a villain here. No one did anything wrong. But I'm glad Dan got a chance to talk to his listeners. It's why I listen. Well done Dan.
- anon808 14y ago
  I think this private situation only became public when dan mentioned it? if it truely is private why not have that trump whatever public business expectations there are. if it's private, it's private. my personal taste is not to use private situations as pr.
  - filmgirlcw 14y ago
    He certainly wasn't using this for PR, I know Dan would have preferred for the whole thing to never become a big spectacle on the front page of HN, with YouTube songs and Twitter riots. But when something IS public, responding is often necessary and I stand by my comment that his response was a perfect example of the right way to do something difficult with class and aplomb.
    - anon808 14y ago
      not using this for pr is not talking about who said/didn't say, did/didn't do what. using it for pr is talking about one-side of a two-sided relationship. Dan's 100% correct to tell his listeners the old show they listened to isn't on any more and his hope they try some of the other shows, takes about 30 seconds. but unfortunately he doesn't stop there, and that's where it crosses the line.
jeiting 14y ago
I would think that mule radio would be on precarious legal ground carrying and unauthorized continuation of what is (likely) the intellectual property of 5by5. Hard to say for certain without seeing the agreement between 5by5 and Dan but I'm surprised they wouldn't give the show a new name. (On a personal note I think Dan is getting screwed here after doing most of the work and this has finely put me over the edge in considering Gruber a git)
davidkatz 14y ago
Does anyone know the story from Gruber's side?
faizanaziz 14y ago
All good things come to end. Well...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
faizanaziz 14y ago
All good things come to end. Well...
chadk 14y ago
I really enjoyed his bit about how listeners become (unidirectional) "friends" with the hosts that they spend so much time listening too. Dan really understands the sense of loss that the fans feel over not being informed, and I am glad he broached that topic. Of course, this doesn't justify some of the showings of massive entitlement on Twitter etc. But I am glad he recognized the emotional investment of the fans.
cw4 14y ago
There were lots of armchair quarterbacks talking about how "they don't owe us anything". There were lots of comments from Gruber, Mike, etc basically mocking people for being upset that the show dropped Dan and moved with no warning. Dan pretty much nailed it: he feels like they owed the fans one last episode to say goodbye and they didn't get to do that.
- harpastum 14y ago
  Any links for those comments from Mike and Gruber? I haven't seen them.
  - mikeryan 14y ago
    Its mostly been a twitter based phenom. http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW Check out the tweets from May 19 when it seemed to have blown up. Gruber's twitter feed seems more silent.
    - cw4 14y ago
      @Amyjane made some, @Marcoarment retweeted a bunch, and Gruber has been making passive-aggressive posts to Daring Fireball.
ozarius 14y ago
Dan's the best... I am sure 5by5 will do just fine with such superhits like Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyze etc... Taking a cue from Dan, i wish Gruber the best, though honestly i won't be listening to him any more
jakemcgraw 14y ago
When Gruber said "Readability is run by scumbags" [1] for hijacking referral links, I'd say right back at you, John Gruber, you're a scumbag for hijacking the name of the show and exiting with a total lack of class. I hope the fluffing [2] Mike Monteiro [3] gave you was worth tossing Dan and 5by5 under the bus. [1]: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/03/30/readability http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/03/30/readability [2]: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fluffing http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fluffing [3]: http://twitter.com/mike_wtf http://twitter.com/mike_wtf
- evan_ 14y ago
  Mike Monteiro is actually https://twitter.com/#!/mike_ftw https://twitter.com/#!/mike_ftw - FTW, not WTF. (he's got a fairly NSFW twitter background incidentally)
  - jakemcgraw 14y ago
    total subconscience slip
da_n 14y ago
I give Dan Benjamin huge respect for doing this, he certainly didn't have any obligation to do so. Gruber and Mike Monteiro on the other hand have basically given the audience a massive fuck you. I am not really surprised by that but it is a disappointment and has put me off checking out the new Talk Show going forward, or indeed any Mule Radio podcasts. Dan will be fine anyway, 5by5 has some of the best shows on the internet.
54mf 14y ago
I've had this nagging feeling for a while that Gruber, while a superb writer, is probably insufferable in real life. That particular kind of nerd that's dangerously smart, always right about whatever they're saying, and just miserable to be around. I don't want to read in to things (any more than I already am, I guess,) but it sure feels like Gruber handled this poorly. For someone running a site supported nearly entirely by reader contributions and pageviews, it would have been a little more respectable to handle this whole ordeal like a grown-up instead of playing the "I can do what I want, I don't owe you anything, get a life already" card so heavily.
Alcedes 14y ago
I wonder if i'm the only one that finds Gruber annoying to listen to after knowing what kind of person he seems to be. I guess i'll swing by DF weekly instead of daily...
lachlanj 14y ago
To me 50% of this show was Dan Benjamin. Without him it will not be the same show, even if Gruber is the main draw card. Sad to see him leave, but I'm more interested in what is ahead for Dan. He has a great network.
Codhisattva 14y ago
My takeaway - joint projects, even (or perhaps especially) between friends, need to have clear agreements and binding contracts.
jwpage 14y ago
The final seconds of the last show[1] are pretty uncomfortable to listen to. [1] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a
- davidcollantes 14y ago
  Grubber sounds upset, or guilty. It might be about the t-shirt part, and he not knowing anything about it, or the fact that it was a t-shirt for a show he will not longer be doing (and Dan did not know anything about it). Pretty uncomfortable.

243 points by ehed 14y ago

ehed 14y ago

Dan Benjamin is a class act.

orta 14y ago

Summary: Dan used to listen to podcasts daily, used to get a real feel for the people he was listening too. So he thinks it's a bit of a shame they can't even do a "one last show." But he wishes all the best. I love listening to 5by5 episodes. Mainly the siracusa one, and at some point I'll check out Grubers new podcast. My thoughts are that losing Dan from the show is a negative, he's a great speaker with a soothing voice and I enjoy the smalltalk he makes.

ehed 14y ago
It's really going to be a different show now. But John clearly has a completely refreshed voice in the new series, it seems like the move is going to be a net gain for everyone. Many others have pointed out that TTS on 5by5 has not been the same recently. I look forward to listening to the new TTS even though it won't be the same.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- alphang 14y ago
  Agreed, I actually really enjoy Gruber's tone on the new show. I'd guess a part of this may be that Gruber wants an editorial reboot with the new show, so that he has more control and it directly complements Daring Fireball (Note the new description: "Sort of like the director's commentary track for Daring Fireball.") I actually look forward to it. Dan's a good host on other shows, and a class act, but I've felt that he and Gruber lacked chemistry for a long time.
Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
I think what Dan does really well is give his co-hosts room to do their thing. He's not got a huge ego, he knows for the most part it's not about him, but he's a great solid foil for others, providing structure. I think you can only get away with being opinionated and outspoken if you have someone like Dan next to you as a balance and a tether.

m_pond 14y ago

Dan truly is a class act. His shows have been a huge source of insight and entertainment to me over the last few years. I'm clicking the "Donate" button on the 5by5 site.

ZanderEarth32 14y ago

Not exactly the drama I think everyone was looking for, but I never expected any reaction other than this from Dan. Whether this is the 100% complete truth, we'll never know and we shouldn't care. Time to move on folks, nothing else to see here.

chmars 14y ago
John Gruber is free to tell his side of the story. Anyway, I agree with you that is is time to move. As a listener, I am mainly happy that more and more successful podcast networks appear in the US and elsewhere.
- ehed 14y ago
  I posted this in the thread from Friday, but think it's worth mentioning again - if you listen to the last few minutes, starting with where Dan mentions the t-shirts, it seems like John was offended by the jokes made at his expense (e.g. not wearing a shirt). Maybe it was the kind of thing that had been accumulating, as I know Dan has made offhand cracks in the past, and perhaps this was the last straw. I believe John felt disrespected/unappreciated, for the last time it seems.

miketucker 14y ago

Striking juxtaposition of this statement to the "new" Talk Show, (http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/1/ http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/1/) in which Gruber makes zero mention of Dan or his decision to move on, and instead chooses to start things off talking about.. baseball.

gaving 14y ago
I don't think that's fair since neither party had said anything about the split before that went live. Now that Dan's expressed his thoughts, I wonder if John will do the same.
- thomasjoulin 14y ago
  Nonetheless Gruber comes out as a jerk... If it was indeed his decision, he should have handled it a little better with Benjamin (telling him sooner, organizing a last show, not reusing the TTS name on mule...), and even if one can argue that he doesn't owe the listener anything, an explanation in the introduction of the new show would have made a good segue...
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    I find it surprising that so many people are willing to say that Gruber has acted like a jerk. If anyone has the right to be pissed it'd Dan, yet he seems to be fine (if disappointed) with what's happened. If he's not calling Gruber a jerk I think the rest of us should take our lead there - after all, he knows more than any of us and is personally involved in the whole thing.
    - thomasjoulin 14y ago
      Well, I'm certainly not as classy as Dan, kudos to him. But I don't see the point of hiding my disappointment just because I don't know them personally. As Dan said, when you listen to people on the radio every week, you feel close to them. The way it was handled lacked class. Calling Gruber a jerk is just an habit of exaggerating thing on the Internet I guess... We're not entitled to an explanation or a goodbye, but that's the difference between classy a douchy IMO.

mchanson 14y ago

Dan seems conflicted over how it went down, but I'm left feeling this statement shows he is quite angry with John and begrudges how John handled things (no last show and re-using the show name). I disagree this is a 'classy' statement (because of the criticism of his ex-co-host). I think its trying to be a straightforward telling of Dan's perspective without him being too emotional. I think its pretty good for that. Would love for all parties to to be as open and honest as they can as it will make for compelling radio! Disclosure: I'm a $5 a month subscriber to 5by5, a Gruber fan, and a big fan of Let's Make Mistakes (and Mike in general).

f1nch3r 14y ago
You can criticize and remain classy. I think Dan did that in this statement.
- Tloewald 14y ago
  I agree, and if it's true that John took the show's name without even giving Dan advance notice let alone asking permission, then I'm disappointed. I'm curious in general about mule's split from Dan. I loved the original "fuck you, pay me" but never got into "let's make mistakes" and was surprised that they split off 5by5 (and now appear to be poaching) but I'd like to hear the other side...
  - guywithabike 14y ago
    Let's Make Mistakes didn't "split off". They paid to be on the 5by5 network and once they established themselves, they moved it to their own network. No funny business there, basically.
    - awolf 14y ago
      I've been curious about that myself. You say that Mike and Katy paid to be on 5by5. How do you know this? I would assume that the arrangement would simply to have shared a portion of the sponsorship money with 5by5.

chmars 14y ago

'My friend John Gruber' etc. without any restriction – I'm very happy to hear that at least Dan Benjamin still sees John Gruber as a friend. Dan Benjamin has really class, even in a situation that can't be easy for him.

zachwill 14y ago

Dan's a class act.

rkudeshi 14y ago

Summary for anyone who can't listen: * Dan says John emailed him and just said it was time to move on and try something new. Dan says he has total respect and understanding for that. * Dan says he thought if they weren't doing the show anymore, they would retire it together. Surprised and disappointed that John's doing the show on his own and re-using the name. * Dan wishes they could have done one last episode to reminisce (120 previous episodes) and to thank the fans. * Dan encourages fans to listen to the new show at muleradio.net. * No other sordid details, just some personal anecdotes. I've never listened to any 5by5 podcasts on 5by5, but Dan Benjamin comes across in this audio clip as a total class act.

pwthornton 14y ago
Dan has always come across as one of the classiest guys on the Internet. I am genuinely sad to see this happen to him.
- woe 14y ago
  ... and John has always come across as one of the Internet's premier jackasses. (I'm tempted to add "I am genuinely sad to see this happen to him" but that would overstate how much I care for the sake of a cheap chuckle.)
georgespencer 14y ago
Like everyone is saying, Dan comes across really well in this. I don't expect JG will ever give us his take. RE: never listening to any 5by5 podcasts–I listened to The Talk Show a few times. Maybe it's because I'm used to the dogma of professional broadcasting, but I don't think you've missed out unless you like hearing a couple of guys pause a hell of a lot during an awkward conversation. Almost every episode I heard started with an entirely charmless "Uh, hello?" "Uh is this on?" scenario. I guess part of the appeal was that it was folksy and just a conversation.
- pwthornton 14y ago
  I think a big part of the appeal of podcasts is that they don't seem like overproduced, substance-less radio. Gruber has some genuinely good insights, particularly about Apple. I also appreciate that this wasn't some overproduced show with sound effects everywhere.

nicholassmith 14y ago

It's a shame, but they'd had a long run of shows, Gruber clearly wanted to do something else which is fine. Could he have handled it better? Sure, of course. Plus they're still friends on Twitter, and we all know that it's only serious if you unfollow.

zooey 14y ago
"and we all know that it's only serious if you unfollow." eheheheh

pohl 14y ago

Jonathan Mann wrote a song about the demise of The Talk Show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2yG6FdfPs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2yG6FdfPs http://www.jonathanmann.net/ http://www.jonathanmann.net/

ralfd 14y ago
This is brilliant! Especially love the "And Gruber's I don't knowing" line. Cracks me up.

znake 14y ago

This shows again that Dan is one of the coolest podcasters ever! Thank you Dan and Gruber for the countless hours in my ears :)

AllenKids 14y ago

I was prepared to hate the new talk show and Mule Radio Syndicate, but to my surprise, John Gruber sound a lot more energetic than pretty much the last year, now if he can get a co-host to rein him in from time to time and at the same time contribute his/her own thoughts... I think Massimo and Julia from "Rationally Speaking" are a perfect couple. Leo LePorte and Dan Benjamin are total nice guys but seldom say anything insightful, they generally just make light jokes and move the topic along. I skipped "Let's make mistakes" for nearly half a year before yesterday, they've gotten better I'll have to say. All in all John Gruber probably was being an ass, now he can be as much of an ass as he want. He can't beat Mike Monteiro on that front. I enjoy asses.

mbrd 14y ago
I don't think Dan's ability to "move the topic along" should be underestimated. It's a real skill to be able to give a discussion somewhat on topic and on time and he is excellent at it. I can't imagine trying to get even 20 minutes of useful content from Merlin Mann but Dan does it every week on Back to Work!
- swombat 14y ago
  Actually, I tried a couple of the "talk show" podcasts and found them incredibly boring. Somehow instead of there being any density of insight or intelligence it was just a couple of people talking about random crap. I've listened to other podcasts, e.g. with Merlin or Marco or "the other John", and those were much better, but it didn't feel to me like Gruber and Benjamin added up to something worth listening to.
- AllenKids 14y ago
  But almost all the 5by5 major shows are horribly overtime. Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyse, the once Talk Show, every host other than Dan is rambling, on and on and on and on for hours. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, 5by5 podcasts are background noises when I walking around the city, doing chores etc. But information densities are really low (Back to Work is an exception but per Merlin's style it's so all over the places, after a while you just give up caring.)

timkeller 14y ago

The classiest guy in podcasting. Bravo Sir.

bruceclark 14y ago
Leo Laporte is pretty damn classy. But do I agree this was a class-act thing to do for the listeners of 5by5.
- camflan 14y ago
  Really? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-accidentally-broadcasts-explicit-sex-chat-massive-online-audience.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078355/Tech-guru-ac... Dan seems like the real deal.
  - runjake 14y ago
    I have no real idea of who Leo Laporte is, but the article you pasted doesn't paint him in a negative light to me. He was separated from his wife for a year, and has (apparently openly) been dating this other woman. Some of their personal chat was accidentally displayed "on the air". So where's the problem and how is it any of our business? And more importantly, how does it reflect badly on him?

mustpax 14y ago

Gruber is taking a page out of the Apple PR book by not saying anything, unless there is something good to be said. This may help move the news cycle along but it's still no way to treat a friend.

mturmon 14y ago
He's not exactly "not saying anything". The top link on DF ("Why wasn't I consulted", a 16-month old piece) could be interpreted as a reply. Follow the attribution link and read: "Apropos of nothing. Ahem."
- rjj 14y ago
  Excellent point. The title of the article which he craftily links to is "The Odd World of Digital Groupies". It's 2.5 years old and has the bolded subtitle " Obsessed fans spend hours online trying to talk to their rock gods—and sometimes, the efforts turn toxic. Doree Shafrir goes inside the bizarre world of extreme internet fandom."
  - protomyth 14y ago
    When you live your life off the advertising dollars directed at your audience, it seems like an odd way of commentary.
    - achompas 14y ago
      Right. I hope this isn't Gruber's intent, given that he monetizes his brand (i.e. him) by selling shirts and appearing at conferences. You can't really dictate the terms for interaction when you when you're such a public figure. If he is saying what GP is suggesting, well, that's the problem with building a cult of personality around yourself: people might buy in a bit too fervently.
      - slantyyz 14y ago
        Gruber used to have a lot of interesting stuff to say. In the same way that Jay Leno used to be one of the funniest comics in the 80s and now resorts to Jaywalking to keep his audience, I find DF to be a little boring, consisting of mainly claim chowder, Android schadenfreude, and the occasional long winded rant essay that goes nowhere.

simonh 14y ago

Does anyone else find it amusing that the title of the latest post on daring Fireball is "Why wasn't I consulted?".

Hontano 14y ago
I read both "What wasn't I consulted?" and "Behind a Press Release" as being very directed at this situation, neither of which were classy ways for Gruber to handle it, just snide allusions. Dan's short message was pure class.
- chucknelson 14y ago
  Snide allusions indeed. I don't understand why it's so difficult for Gruber to be a little more polite about his response. I'm sure what he is receiving from listeners is definitely not polite, but he has the audience, so I think he should have a higher standard to maintain.
barredo 14y ago
A year old article about "internet people" having some sense of entitlement about other's work? Hardly a coincidence. It's Gruber's answer to the HN thread & tweets of last week.
- nickmain 14y ago
  One of the tweets that John chose to retweet was a reference to Joan Rivers leaving Johnny Carson - https://twitter.com/#!/dr_mind_bender/status/203903404953714689 https://twitter.com/#!/dr_mind_bender/status/203903404953714... It seems that he thinks of podcasts like late night TV - where the audience is just an abstract statistic. In Dan's response above he makes a reference to drive-time radio talk shows and the sense of relationship (albeit one-way) that comes from that medium. He sees his audience as individual people whereas John only sees the audience as a revenue source.
- eduo 14y ago
  The article, though, is spot-on. The problem, to my eyes, is that it doesn't really vibe with the situation. People are not complaining that they didn't have a say. Most people I've read seem to understand the reasoning behind the initial decision. What the complaints are about are not about John's decision to leave 5by5 but about the dickish way he decided to do it. Being a bigger dick afterwards by implying he can do whatever he wants with his podcast (won't even go into how bad it looks that he sees TTS as "his" podcast and not the job of the two, regardless of him being the star host) doesn't help. The wording of the announcement and the hyperbole he lavishes muleradio with make the whole thing even worse.

moron 14y ago

I like Gruber's writing and often chafe at some of the less-insightful things people have to say about him, but I agree 100% with Dan here. It would have been right for Gruber and him to properly cap off the show for the listeners. It would have been right to acknowledge that it really isn't the same show anymore. In addition, it would have been right for Gruber to say how great of a co-host Dan has been, because he has been. But none of those things happened, and that is shitty. There's really no two ways about it. This isn't about "I wasn't consulted". This is about respect for the audience and saying at least a few words to them, for crying out loud. It's about acting like they matter just a little. What exactly is The Talk Show, or any show, without listeners? This isn't taking a page out of the Apple PR book -- Apple actually does explain their reasoning for why they do things, when those things affect how people relate to what they make.

tjogin 14y ago
I agree, but on the other hand, Dan always says "it's your show" whenever they need to make a decision about something. Dan also often refrains from correcting or informing Gruber at times when he's unsure or is wrong about something, much to Gruber's disappointment the following episode when Gruber has found it out, again with Dan excusing himself with saying "it's your show". If I were to venture a guess, Gruber would prefer a co-host that contributes to, rather than mostly guides, the conversation.
- meej 14y ago
  I would venture a similar guess. I haven't listened to The Talk Show, but I did listen to The Critical Path with Horace Dedieu for its first few months and based on that I would say that Benjamin isn't even that great of a guide -- I often found his questions and reactions to Dedieu to be naive or uninformed, which eventually irritated me out of listening. His voice is nice to listen to, but I'm not terribly interested in what he has to say.

pjbeardsley 14y ago

You have to wonder if John expected this level of backlash. It reminds me of LeBron James' "The Decision" in a lot of ways. He may be good, but he'll never be loved.

mahmud 14y ago

Who listens to IT podcasts? the world is full of rich and wonderful media broaden your horizons, listen to something that isn't backdated garbage. Imagine all the music genres you could discover, educational materials, languages you could learn, audiobooks ..

gizmo 14y ago
Hypercritical (by 5by5) is actually very good. Amazingly, you argue that people should broaden their horizons (i.e. don't be closeminded) and yet you blindly dismiss IT podcasts completely as back-dated garbage. Discarding whole categories of self-expression/content as crap is the very definition of close-mindedness. Oh, the irony. Maybe people listen to IT podcasts because they like to. It needs no further justification.
pooriaazimi 14y ago
> Who listens to IT podcasts? the world is full of rich and wonderful media broaden your horizons, listen to something that isn't backdated garbage. Imagine all the music genres you could discover, educational materials, languages you could learn, audiobooks .. I don't listen to music, watch TV/movies (except Kubrick's), waste time with friends more than it is necessary/useful (I enjoy being with friends/family, but not 10 hours a day), and spend most of my spare time reading HN, tech blogs (not TechCrunch, but developers' blogs), listening to audiobooks (to improve my English, as I'm not native), watch educational materials (Both academic, like those from MIT, Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley and technical screencasts, like those of PeepCode). I said it because I wanted you to know that I try very very hard to spend my time on something useful/informative. And I can tell you that Dan's other show with John Siracusa (of Ars Technica), Hypercritical[1] is so far from backdated garbage that it's not even funny. Every week, Friday nights, I spend about 2 hours listening to him and I don't regret it one bit. I learned a lot from him. If you're not familiar with television technology for example (like me), listen to episode 16, 'The Soap Opera Effect'[2]. You'll learn many new things. It's not his best episode, but I think by listening to that you'll understand what his show is about. [1]: http://5by5.tv/hypercritical http://5by5.tv/hypercritical [2]: 5by5.tv/hypercritical/16
WiseWeasel 14y ago

filmgirlcw 14y ago

Disclosure: Dan is my friend. He's actually one of my best friends. I know far more about this situation than most, I am not unbiased. I love Dan for doing this. I think it was the right way to address listeners and also express himself on the topic. John doesn't need to give his take if he doesn't want to -- and I don't think anyone would expect him to. People do expect more transparency with Dan, and that's why, however uncomfortable this might have been to discuss, I'm glad Dan took the time to do. In my professional life, I spend a lot of time analyzing, criticizing and discussing various PR maneuvers of major companies and brands. To me, it's always telling to see how a company or brand deals with a difficult situation. I think Dan's approach here (and again, I'm totally biased -- though I try to look at this objectively and out of the lens of "my friend") was a great example of how to deal with a private business situation that becomes public. No one is a villain here. No one did anything wrong. But I'm glad Dan got a chance to talk to his listeners. It's why I listen. Well done Dan.

anon808 14y ago
I think this private situation only became public when dan mentioned it? if it truely is private why not have that trump whatever public business expectations there are. if it's private, it's private. my personal taste is not to use private situations as pr.
- filmgirlcw 14y ago
  He certainly wasn't using this for PR, I know Dan would have preferred for the whole thing to never become a big spectacle on the front page of HN, with YouTube songs and Twitter riots. But when something IS public, responding is often necessary and I stand by my comment that his response was a perfect example of the right way to do something difficult with class and aplomb.
  - anon808 14y ago
    not using this for pr is not talking about who said/didn't say, did/didn't do what. using it for pr is talking about one-side of a two-sided relationship. Dan's 100% correct to tell his listeners the old show they listened to isn't on any more and his hope they try some of the other shows, takes about 30 seconds. but unfortunately he doesn't stop there, and that's where it crosses the line.

jeiting 14y ago

I would think that mule radio would be on precarious legal ground carrying and unauthorized continuation of what is (likely) the intellectual property of 5by5. Hard to say for certain without seeing the agreement between 5by5 and Dan but I'm surprised they wouldn't give the show a new name. (On a personal note I think Dan is getting screwed here after doing most of the work and this has finely put me over the edge in considering Gruber a git)

davidkatz 14y ago

Does anyone know the story from Gruber's side?

faizanaziz 14y ago

All good things come to end. Well...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

faizanaziz 14y ago

All good things come to end. Well...

chadk 14y ago

I really enjoyed his bit about how listeners become (unidirectional) "friends" with the hosts that they spend so much time listening too. Dan really understands the sense of loss that the fans feel over not being informed, and I am glad he broached that topic. Of course, this doesn't justify some of the showings of massive entitlement on Twitter etc. But I am glad he recognized the emotional investment of the fans.

cw4 14y ago

There were lots of armchair quarterbacks talking about how "they don't owe us anything". There were lots of comments from Gruber, Mike, etc basically mocking people for being upset that the show dropped Dan and moved with no warning. Dan pretty much nailed it: he feels like they owed the fans one last episode to say goodbye and they didn't get to do that.

harpastum 14y ago
Any links for those comments from Mike and Gruber? I haven't seen them.
- mikeryan 14y ago
  Its mostly been a twitter based phenom. http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW Check out the tweets from May 19 when it seemed to have blown up. Gruber's twitter feed seems more silent.
  - cw4 14y ago
    @Amyjane made some, @Marcoarment retweeted a bunch, and Gruber has been making passive-aggressive posts to Daring Fireball.

ozarius 14y ago

Dan's the best... I am sure 5by5 will do just fine with such superhits like Hypercritical, Back to Work, Build and Analyze etc... Taking a cue from Dan, i wish Gruber the best, though honestly i won't be listening to him any more

jakemcgraw 14y ago

When Gruber said "Readability is run by scumbags" [1] for hijacking referral links, I'd say right back at you, John Gruber, you're a scumbag for hijacking the name of the show and exiting with a total lack of class. I hope the fluffing [2] Mike Monteiro [3] gave you was worth tossing Dan and 5by5 under the bus. [1]: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/03/30/readability http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/03/30/readability [2]: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fluffing http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fluffing [3]: http://twitter.com/mike_wtf http://twitter.com/mike_wtf

evan_ 14y ago
Mike Monteiro is actually https://twitter.com/#!/mike_ftw https://twitter.com/#!/mike_ftw - FTW, not WTF. (he's got a fairly NSFW twitter background incidentally)
- jakemcgraw 14y ago
  total subconscience slip

da_n 14y ago

I give Dan Benjamin huge respect for doing this, he certainly didn't have any obligation to do so. Gruber and Mike Monteiro on the other hand have basically given the audience a massive fuck you. I am not really surprised by that but it is a disappointment and has put me off checking out the new Talk Show going forward, or indeed any Mule Radio podcasts. Dan will be fine anyway, 5by5 has some of the best shows on the internet.

54mf 14y ago

I've had this nagging feeling for a while that Gruber, while a superb writer, is probably insufferable in real life. That particular kind of nerd that's dangerously smart, always right about whatever they're saying, and just miserable to be around. I don't want to read in to things (any more than I already am, I guess,) but it sure feels like Gruber handled this poorly. For someone running a site supported nearly entirely by reader contributions and pageviews, it would have been a little more respectable to handle this whole ordeal like a grown-up instead of playing the "I can do what I want, I don't owe you anything, get a life already" card so heavily.

Alcedes 14y ago

I wonder if i'm the only one that finds Gruber annoying to listen to after knowing what kind of person he seems to be. I guess i'll swing by DF weekly instead of daily...

lachlanj 14y ago

To me 50% of this show was Dan Benjamin. Without him it will not be the same show, even if Gruber is the main draw card. Sad to see him leave, but I'm more interested in what is ahead for Dan. He has a great network.

Codhisattva 14y ago

My takeaway - joint projects, even (or perhaps especially) between friends, need to have clear agreements and binding contracts.

jwpage 14y ago

The final seconds of the last show[1] are pretty uncomfortable to listen to. [1] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a

davidcollantes 14y ago
Grubber sounds upset, or guilty. It might be about the t-shirt part, and he not knowing anything about it, or the fact that it was a t-shirt for a show he will not longer be doing (and Dan did not know anything about it). Pretty uncomfortable.