10 ms·

I live in a city that was a hot zone for this type of contamination in the drinking water due to industrial waste from leather processing buried in the 60’s (sh

I live in a city that was a hot zone for this type of contamination in the drinking water due to industrial waste from leather processing buried in the 60’s (shoe scraps treated with scotchgard.) We now have GAC filtering at the municipal supply level that is quite effective and not that expensive. The large beds of carbon last quite a while if I recall correctly. Despite regular testing, everyone I know RO filters their water regardless. For me, it’s because I have no idea what new previously “unknown” contamination will be next discovered, and would rather get out as much as is reasonable. When the information began to surface I found it interesting the letters on public record going back to the 60’s with people warning that allowing this kind of dumping was a bad idea. Of course being the primary employer to the entire city, the economics won at the time. Since, the cost of cleanup and lawsuits to that company have been massive.

datascienced 2y ago
RO is cheap enough for middle class or above (order of magnitude is ~ what you might spend on uniforms and excursions for a kid in a state primary school). Assuming a self install. So it is a good option if you can afford it. Maybe RO becoming part of the standard set of things you buy (washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc.) is the way. You have to keep up to date with filter changes though. RO typically needs a post filter. Hopefully that doesn’t add any bad chemicals. But you need it as pure water is desperate to bind, so you can either bind it to something you choose, or bind it to whatever pipe work / tanks are beyond the filter. Also you might want a higher ph. Maybe some disruption to make a nice looking, compact and cheap and zero install RO unit would be good and some subsidy for people without the means to buy one who live in risk areas. Plus subsidy for maintenance. If the design is like a printer where you pull out and push in new cartridges and have warning lights it will make maintenance easy.
- silisili 2y ago
  I feel like safe, clean water is the job of the municipal system that we pay so much for. Even the poors should have the same cleanliness as the middle class, but that's rather beside the point.
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  Check out Waterdrop. The cartridges do just pop out and in, and it’s not zero install but it is very easy. If you can install a faucet you can install that. I got over 99% reduction according to a cheap TDS meter at my condo in Phoenix with the 2 filter one. I can replace cartridges in seconds. I love that thing. Zero install would probably suck as you’d have to fill tanks frequently (it rejects a good amount of water) and it would take up counter space but they do make em. Honestly in most places you can buy the stuff for 25 cents a gallon from a machine, which is what I would do if I did not feel like installing
  - jxramos 2y ago
    I've been a fan of the APEC countertop units; https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/products/reverse-osmosis-countertop-water-filtration-system https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/products/reverse-osmosis-c... Been using them for a few years, water tastes great.
    - datascienced 2y ago
      That is a nice looking unit. I think as usual USA has more options! Might import something like this! If it did cold water too would be awesome.
      - mattmaroon 2y ago
        We are the best at having things to buy.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
      That countertop unit looks great. Question - how do you deal with countertops that have storage tanks made out of plastic? Are there no concerns with microplastics at all with these units? I know the plastic is not the Polypropylene stuff, but still.
      - jxramos 2y ago
        the unit I have has no storage tank. The water comes out a tube that needs to fill something. We have a regular daily pitcher that gets filled several times through the day. I also fill up larger storage emergency water camping tanks. I guess those are made out of some kind of plastic. I heard some RO filters could pass microplastics. I think it would be cool to see if any of that pics up in a microscope. What size particles are people zeroing in on exactly?
- jjtheblunt 2y ago
  RO has some very easy to maintain, and user install options, which I've done. ( https://www.geappliances.com/ge/water-filtration-systems.htm https://www.geappliances.com/ge/water-filtration-systems.htm ) However RO is not water efficient, in the sense that only a fraction of water run over the RO membrane system is filtered, and otherwise inbound water goes on into the drain. You can hear this happening, and it's documented by GE, for example, as how the systems work. That makes me wonder if there are other systems with the characteristic that a higher % of ingested water ends up filtered as well as RO can.
  - greenavocado 2y ago
    A permeate pump can typically reduce water waste in reverse osmosis systems by up to 80%. In general, permeate pumps can achieve a waste water reduction of around 50% to 80%. This means that for every gallon of purified water produced, only around 20% to 50% is wasted as reject water. This is achieved by utilizing the energy from the brine flow to enhance the pressure applied to the feed water, leading to increased permeate production and reduced reject water volume. Typically, these pumps range from $50 to $200 and they do not use electricity. The elevated pressure allows for more effective filtration and higher water recovery rates. By boosting the pressure, permeate pumps facilitate a greater volume of water passing through the semi-permeable membrane, resulting in increased production of purified water (permeate) and reduced reject water (brine). The heightened pressure helps overcome osmotic pressure and allows for a more thorough extraction of purified water from the feed stream.
    - wbl 2y ago
      The domestic RO systems put pressure on the clean water output and don't have recovery systems for brine pressure? What? My only experience with RO systems are on sailboats, where a brine pressure recovery system is the only way to get the power down, and the water trickles into the tank under low pressure from where it is pumped out.
      - jjtheblunt 2y ago
        The linked system above just sends the unfiltered tap water down the drain. I have had two iterations of the GE system and it says so in the manual, for instance. I am not sure about other brands and their systems.
- bagels 2y ago
  I don't have a child, and don't know how much a child's uniform or excursion costs. Why not price it in dollars?
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Comparing to those things actually makes it sound quite expensive while also being a very vague amount. The point would be a lot better if it had a number.
  - geraldwhen 2y ago
    200-1000 plus installation, googling Home Depot.
  - SamBam 2y ago
    Maybe it would have been simpler if GP said it cost about 7-12 axolotls from Petco.
- ninininino 2y ago
  RO doesn't really solve for filtering the water naturally inside of crops or meat. If you have a huge increase in groundwater pollution in a country, if your food supply isn't also in a closed system where only filtered water comes in, then you've only reduced your contaminant consumption not eliminated it.
- hedora 2y ago
  A recent study (made it to HN) used a novel sensor to count microplastics in bottled water. The numbers were 10x higher than expected, but the real surprise was that 50% were shed from the plant filtration system. I’m guessing RO is similarly bad (the membrane is made from one of the plastics in question).
  - engneeer 2y ago
    which study was that? anyone got the link? thanks!
    - smokel 2y ago
      Simply putting the comment text in Perplexity [1] leads to the following result: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/scientists-find-about-a-quarter-million-invisible-microplastic-particles-in-a-liter-of-bottled-water https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/scientists-find-about-a... [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/ https://www.perplexity.ai/
  - camkego 2y ago
    I have been buying 5gal water jugs from a local Seattle company until recently, with the articles on all the microplastics shedding from the bottles into the water inside. I did buy no-plastics Aarke glass/steel carbon filter pitcher for my drinking water. It's hard to find water filtration without plastic involved, hopefully other options will come to the market, but their offering is pretty good so far.
    - arein3 2y ago
      >It's hard to find water filtration without plastic involved, hopefully other options will come to the market, but their offering is pretty good so far. What about distillation as a filtration method? Are the micro/nano plastics filtered by distillation? Interesting what method of filtration the chip factories use, as they need 100% pure water for the cpu making process.
      - 2y ago
- lr4444lr 2y ago
  Some RO systems like mine come with an alkalizing stage that adds Ca/K/Mg ions back: excellent flavor improvement to have it, too.
- NickM 2y ago
  Maybe RO becoming part of the standard set of things you buy (washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc.) is the way. It just seems really sad that society is moving away from "let's fix it for everyone" toward just giving up and saying "the only solution is everyone for themselves." Like, surely it would be much more efficient and cost-effective to improve water filtration at the municipal level rather than expecting everyone to buy and maintain their own individual filtration systems....
  - atiffany 2y ago
    It might be more efficient (and effective) for the filtering to happen closest to where the water is drank. If it happens at the treatment plant, then you end up filtering lots of water that is used to water lawns, shower, etc. Only a small percentage is used for drinking.
    - saulpw 2y ago
      I don't think it's good to have toxins on our lawns (where our pets roll around) or in our shower water either though?
      - jboogie77 2y ago
        This is correct. Pollution absorption though the shower is a thing
    - RiverStone 2y ago
      Agree, you also need chlorine in the water to treat the distribution system of pipes to your home. So you need to filter chlorine at point of use anyways.
  - para_parolu 2y ago
    Most of water I spend during the day is not drinking water.
  - chankstein38 2y ago
    I think this stems from the fact that the government takes years to do anything and mostly caters to special interests. If we could get them to actually take action on things then this kind of thing wouldn't be necessary but I feel like, more often than not, we're all left waiting on them to decide how to best make sure their industry/corporate friends aren't harmed before they decide to do what's best for the public.
TylerE 2y ago
> For me, it’s because I have no idea what new previously “unknown” contamination will be next discovered, and would rather get out as much as is reasonable. This really resonates with where my thinking has gone. While I always try to be guided by science, my default these days is much closer to "assume it isn't safe" than "assume it is". I've got multiple chronic medical conditions that me both more susceptible to getting to sick, and more likely to have complications/have a slow recovery if I do. So for instance, I keep (medical grade) gloves at home and wear them when using any sort of cleaning chemicals. My skin is fragile anyway, and almost any sort of solvent (that isn't water) is at least somewhat bad for you, either short or long term.
- mrtesthah 2y ago
  > So for instance, I keep (medical grade) gloves at home and wear them when using any sort of cleaning chemicals. Most of the risk is from the VOCs: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/09/cleaning-products-emit-hundreds-hazardous-chemicals-new-study https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/09/clean...
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Not surprsing. I'll also mask (N95, yeah something with a carbon filter would be even better) for the heavy stuff and always go fragrance-free if possible, which is something the article mentions.
    - nicolas_t 2y ago
      I do the same (gloves, n95, plastic glasses to protect the eyes) plus honestly I’ve always been very bothered by any sort of artificial fragrances.
    - namibj 2y ago
      There are smog masks from Asia where it's almost needed to be outside in many major metro areas; they use a cloth carrier with a laminated inlay of N95-like particle and activated carbon VOC filtering.
zarathustreal 2y ago
“RO” in this context, for anyone who doesn’t care about being known in a relatively obscure Internet forum as someone that knows water filtration jargon, presumably stands for “Reverse Osmosis”
- jeremy151 2y ago
  I think that's a pretty good presumption. Though a Random Orbital filter could be an interesting thing to see.
JackMorgan 2y ago
I switched to a home water still, which I greatly prefer. No risk of additional microplastics from plastic filters. The home distilled water tastes so good, much better than store bought that often sits in plastic jugs for weeks. I do not add any additional minerals, the amount of magnesium, iron, and sodium in drinking water is only like ~5-10% of a person's daily requirement, and I get plenty of those from vegetables.

datascienced 2y ago

RO is cheap enough for middle class or above (order of magnitude is ~ what you might spend on uniforms and excursions for a kid in a state primary school). Assuming a self install. So it is a good option if you can afford it. Maybe RO becoming part of the standard set of things you buy (washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc.) is the way. You have to keep up to date with filter changes though. RO typically needs a post filter. Hopefully that doesn’t add any bad chemicals. But you need it as pure water is desperate to bind, so you can either bind it to something you choose, or bind it to whatever pipe work / tanks are beyond the filter. Also you might want a higher ph. Maybe some disruption to make a nice looking, compact and cheap and zero install RO unit would be good and some subsidy for people without the means to buy one who live in risk areas. Plus subsidy for maintenance. If the design is like a printer where you pull out and push in new cartridges and have warning lights it will make maintenance easy.

silisili 2y ago
I feel like safe, clean water is the job of the municipal system that we pay so much for. Even the poors should have the same cleanliness as the middle class, but that's rather beside the point.
mattmaroon 2y ago
Check out Waterdrop. The cartridges do just pop out and in, and it’s not zero install but it is very easy. If you can install a faucet you can install that. I got over 99% reduction according to a cheap TDS meter at my condo in Phoenix with the 2 filter one. I can replace cartridges in seconds. I love that thing. Zero install would probably suck as you’d have to fill tanks frequently (it rejects a good amount of water) and it would take up counter space but they do make em. Honestly in most places you can buy the stuff for 25 cents a gallon from a machine, which is what I would do if I did not feel like installing
- jxramos 2y ago
  I've been a fan of the APEC countertop units; https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/products/reverse-osmosis-countertop-water-filtration-system https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/products/reverse-osmosis-c... Been using them for a few years, water tastes great.
  - datascienced 2y ago
    That is a nice looking unit. I think as usual USA has more options! Might import something like this! If it did cold water too would be awesome.
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      We are the best at having things to buy.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
    That countertop unit looks great. Question - how do you deal with countertops that have storage tanks made out of plastic? Are there no concerns with microplastics at all with these units? I know the plastic is not the Polypropylene stuff, but still.
    - jxramos 2y ago
      the unit I have has no storage tank. The water comes out a tube that needs to fill something. We have a regular daily pitcher that gets filled several times through the day. I also fill up larger storage emergency water camping tanks. I guess those are made out of some kind of plastic. I heard some RO filters could pass microplastics. I think it would be cool to see if any of that pics up in a microscope. What size particles are people zeroing in on exactly?
jjtheblunt 2y ago
RO has some very easy to maintain, and user install options, which I've done. ( https://www.geappliances.com/ge/water-filtration-systems.htm https://www.geappliances.com/ge/water-filtration-systems.htm ) However RO is not water efficient, in the sense that only a fraction of water run over the RO membrane system is filtered, and otherwise inbound water goes on into the drain. You can hear this happening, and it's documented by GE, for example, as how the systems work. That makes me wonder if there are other systems with the characteristic that a higher % of ingested water ends up filtered as well as RO can.
- greenavocado 2y ago
  A permeate pump can typically reduce water waste in reverse osmosis systems by up to 80%. In general, permeate pumps can achieve a waste water reduction of around 50% to 80%. This means that for every gallon of purified water produced, only around 20% to 50% is wasted as reject water. This is achieved by utilizing the energy from the brine flow to enhance the pressure applied to the feed water, leading to increased permeate production and reduced reject water volume. Typically, these pumps range from $50 to $200 and they do not use electricity. The elevated pressure allows for more effective filtration and higher water recovery rates. By boosting the pressure, permeate pumps facilitate a greater volume of water passing through the semi-permeable membrane, resulting in increased production of purified water (permeate) and reduced reject water (brine). The heightened pressure helps overcome osmotic pressure and allows for a more thorough extraction of purified water from the feed stream.
  - wbl 2y ago
    The domestic RO systems put pressure on the clean water output and don't have recovery systems for brine pressure? What? My only experience with RO systems are on sailboats, where a brine pressure recovery system is the only way to get the power down, and the water trickles into the tank under low pressure from where it is pumped out.
    - jjtheblunt 2y ago
      The linked system above just sends the unfiltered tap water down the drain. I have had two iterations of the GE system and it says so in the manual, for instance. I am not sure about other brands and their systems.
bagels 2y ago
I don't have a child, and don't know how much a child's uniform or excursion costs. Why not price it in dollars?
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Comparing to those things actually makes it sound quite expensive while also being a very vague amount. The point would be a lot better if it had a number.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  200-1000 plus installation, googling Home Depot.
- SamBam 2y ago
  Maybe it would have been simpler if GP said it cost about 7-12 axolotls from Petco.
ninininino 2y ago
RO doesn't really solve for filtering the water naturally inside of crops or meat. If you have a huge increase in groundwater pollution in a country, if your food supply isn't also in a closed system where only filtered water comes in, then you've only reduced your contaminant consumption not eliminated it.
hedora 2y ago
A recent study (made it to HN) used a novel sensor to count microplastics in bottled water. The numbers were 10x higher than expected, but the real surprise was that 50% were shed from the plant filtration system. I’m guessing RO is similarly bad (the membrane is made from one of the plastics in question).
- engneeer 2y ago
  which study was that? anyone got the link? thanks!
  - smokel 2y ago
    Simply putting the comment text in Perplexity [1] leads to the following result: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/scientists-find-about-a-quarter-million-invisible-microplastic-particles-in-a-liter-of-bottled-water https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/scientists-find-about-a... [1] https://www.perplexity.ai/ https://www.perplexity.ai/
- camkego 2y ago
  I have been buying 5gal water jugs from a local Seattle company until recently, with the articles on all the microplastics shedding from the bottles into the water inside. I did buy no-plastics Aarke glass/steel carbon filter pitcher for my drinking water. It's hard to find water filtration without plastic involved, hopefully other options will come to the market, but their offering is pretty good so far.
  - arein3 2y ago
    >It's hard to find water filtration without plastic involved, hopefully other options will come to the market, but their offering is pretty good so far. What about distillation as a filtration method? Are the micro/nano plastics filtered by distillation? Interesting what method of filtration the chip factories use, as they need 100% pure water for the cpu making process.
    - 2y ago
lr4444lr 2y ago
Some RO systems like mine come with an alkalizing stage that adds Ca/K/Mg ions back: excellent flavor improvement to have it, too.
NickM 2y ago
Maybe RO becoming part of the standard set of things you buy (washing machine, vacuum cleaner etc.) is the way. It just seems really sad that society is moving away from "let's fix it for everyone" toward just giving up and saying "the only solution is everyone for themselves." Like, surely it would be much more efficient and cost-effective to improve water filtration at the municipal level rather than expecting everyone to buy and maintain their own individual filtration systems....
- atiffany 2y ago
  It might be more efficient (and effective) for the filtering to happen closest to where the water is drank. If it happens at the treatment plant, then you end up filtering lots of water that is used to water lawns, shower, etc. Only a small percentage is used for drinking.
  - saulpw 2y ago
    I don't think it's good to have toxins on our lawns (where our pets roll around) or in our shower water either though?
    - jboogie77 2y ago
      This is correct. Pollution absorption though the shower is a thing
  - RiverStone 2y ago
    Agree, you also need chlorine in the water to treat the distribution system of pipes to your home. So you need to filter chlorine at point of use anyways.
- para_parolu 2y ago
  Most of water I spend during the day is not drinking water.
- chankstein38 2y ago
  I think this stems from the fact that the government takes years to do anything and mostly caters to special interests. If we could get them to actually take action on things then this kind of thing wouldn't be necessary but I feel like, more often than not, we're all left waiting on them to decide how to best make sure their industry/corporate friends aren't harmed before they decide to do what's best for the public.

TylerE 2y ago

> For me, it’s because I have no idea what new previously “unknown” contamination will be next discovered, and would rather get out as much as is reasonable. This really resonates with where my thinking has gone. While I always try to be guided by science, my default these days is much closer to "assume it isn't safe" than "assume it is". I've got multiple chronic medical conditions that me both more susceptible to getting to sick, and more likely to have complications/have a slow recovery if I do. So for instance, I keep (medical grade) gloves at home and wear them when using any sort of cleaning chemicals. My skin is fragile anyway, and almost any sort of solvent (that isn't water) is at least somewhat bad for you, either short or long term.

mrtesthah 2y ago
> So for instance, I keep (medical grade) gloves at home and wear them when using any sort of cleaning chemicals. Most of the risk is from the VOCs: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/09/cleaning-products-emit-hundreds-hazardous-chemicals-new-study https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2023/09/clean...
- TylerE 2y ago
  Not surprsing. I'll also mask (N95, yeah something with a carbon filter would be even better) for the heavy stuff and always go fragrance-free if possible, which is something the article mentions.
  - nicolas_t 2y ago
    I do the same (gloves, n95, plastic glasses to protect the eyes) plus honestly I’ve always been very bothered by any sort of artificial fragrances.
  - namibj 2y ago
    There are smog masks from Asia where it's almost needed to be outside in many major metro areas; they use a cloth carrier with a laminated inlay of N95-like particle and activated carbon VOC filtering.

zarathustreal 2y ago

“RO” in this context, for anyone who doesn’t care about being known in a relatively obscure Internet forum as someone that knows water filtration jargon, presumably stands for “Reverse Osmosis”

jeremy151 2y ago
I think that's a pretty good presumption. Though a Random Orbital filter could be an interesting thing to see.

JackMorgan 2y ago

I switched to a home water still, which I greatly prefer. No risk of additional microplastics from plastic filters. The home distilled water tastes so good, much better than store bought that often sits in plastic jugs for weeks. I do not add any additional minerals, the amount of magnesium, iron, and sodium in drinking water is only like ~5-10% of a person's daily requirement, and I get plenty of those from vegetables.