6 ms·

For nonstick/waterproof/hydrophobic coatings to not slowly shed from whatever they're applied to and end up in the water, they'd need to not be applied in the f

For nonstick/waterproof/hydrophobic coatings to not slowly shed from whatever they're applied to and end up in the water, they'd need to not be applied in the first place. Not having them is cheaper than having them, but we'll be wet (which occasionally leads to hypothermia) and we'll need to revert back to pans seasoned the old fashioned way (less convenient, careful washing).

beejiu 3y ago
> revert back to pans seasoned the old fashioned way Stainless steel is the more convenient option.
- dham 3y ago
  But somehow butter and lard are bad, that's how this whole thing started
- singleshot_ 3y ago
  It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken, as they used to say.
- yumraj 3y ago
  And cast iron, which can get enough non-stick for many uses.
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    As long as one doesn't mistake carcinogenic leftovers from previous cooking for seasoning. It's somehow common to think that seasoning means some deep umami flavor from food bits that get baked into it over time, when it only means the initial seasoning of the metal as a chemical process and still means you should wash your dishes like anything else after it's seasoned. and regular seasoning isn't stripped by washing with dish soap
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    Isn't that the seasoned alternative?
  - blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
    This is true, but maintaining the seasoning is annoying. If you want to scrub your pan out and get it really clean, or leave it soaking, you will likely need to repeat the seasoning process. It gets frustrating to have to coat it in oil and fire up the oven and all of that. You also cannot cook certain foods in cast iron pans due to this. For example, if you want to make a tomato-based sauce, you will risk leeching metal into your food due to the acidity. Personally I think each type of material has its place in the kitchen (nonstick, stainless steel, cast iron, enameled cast iron, etc)
    - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
      > If you want to scrub your pan out and get it really clean, You can scrub just fine with a chain scrubber or metal scraper. You shouldn't use Scotch-Brite pads, sandpaper, or other highly abrasive methods, but scrubbing is not an issue. You shouldn't soak. You can use most dish soaps. Some detergents are still caustic, but anything you can get on your hands without issue is fine. Don't use Ajax or similar highly alkaline and/or abrasive compounds. No lye. Re-seasoning after cleaning shouldn't need the oven. Get it hot on medium-low heat, wipe it with a thin layer of a reasonably unsaturated oil (refined olive oil, rapeseed AKA Canola oil, etc.) on a rag. Let it cool. If you really screwed it up repeat the process a once or twice. If you've totally stripped the pan and are putting on a totally new seasoning, 6-10 times is enough. All that said, I agree about acidic foods. Much like highly alkaline cleaners, they can degrade the seasoning. I use stainless steel for those. I likewise agree that each type of material has its place. I don't use nonstick because I have pet birds, and even tiny amounts of overheating can cause enough fumes to kill them. The rest are all useful to me.
    - cvz 3y ago
      If it's seasoned properly, it really is non-stick and that makes it trivial to clean without soaking or excessive scrubbing. I've cooked with the same cast iron pan, daily, for years, and it only gave me trouble when I had a habit of soaking it. At some point I stopped doing that, re-seasoned it, and stuck to just soaping, scrubbing, rinsing, and drying. It's never given me problems since. I only had to be careful what I was using it for while I was still re-seasoning it, and I also haven't needed to re-season it since. (I use enough oil just from my normal cooking.) As far as cooking things like tomato sauce in it, I agree that should be avoided if possible, but the main concern there is damage to the pan, not health. It would take a lot of leaching to get iron poisoning, assuming you don't have hemochromatosis.
- denkmoon 3y ago
  I love my stainless steel pans but there is a reason non stick pans are by far the most popular. It requires planning (ie. food cannot come straight from the refridgerator) and technique (get pan hot _before_ adding oil/fat) to not leave half your meal stuck to the pan. Most people who don't get joy out of cooking don't want to deal with this. People are cooking at home for themselves less and less, and this has its own healthcare cost. Anything that reduces the number of people cooking at home is almost certainly a net loss for public health.
swatcoder 3y ago
The many among us who already avoid those products, or who haven't gotten practical access to them, may be surprised by the tradeoffs you describe. Just because a technology has become pervasive in some lives doesn't mean that it does a lot that matters. Like any other tradition, its value is often incidental and its popularity is mostly an accident of history (marketing, curiosity, fashion, ephemeral supply/industry shocks, etc). Nonstick pans and synthetic fabrics are very much in that group.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  It's just a learning issue, how to use a steel pan or similar safer alternatives. There are cultural memes about what to use and why and what's easier and harder.
- dylan604 3y ago
  This is a very myopic view. The people to do like these things have a lot more money to spend to ensure these things are around for a while. While my view might be cynical, it is closer to reality than getting people to give up creature comforts voluntarily.
  - phkahler 3y ago
    >> The people to do like these things have a lot more money to spend to ensure these things are around for a while. No. If these things were never invented, those people would no be asking for them. Least not very much.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      >If these things were never invented what an even more myopic view. if only unicorns were real and pots of gold were at the ends of rainbows. if only wishing made it so. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - 3y ago
blueprint 3y ago
honestly it's way easier for me to wash my high carbon lodge pan (and i can put that sucker directly into the oven) because i use steel wire ball, maybe a little soap, and hot water briefly and it's done. reseasoning up to the level needed is trivial with each use but one doesnt really worry about a proper season unless one cleans the pan with some insane pressure and soap. and pans dont really need to be seasoned to be used. the season helps avoid rust a little but then again you can simply store it with a finish of oil on if youre concerned about that. to be frank cleaning a teflon etc pan is way more finicky because we need, hey, wait, more microplastics in the form of slowly degrading acrylic sponge pads or brushes etc.. but i guess you could use alternatives. but anyway, there are also many other ways to keep dry lol it's not like teflon is the only solution
- Spivak 3y ago
  Another alternative is enameled cast iron if you don't want to think about seasoning. My Le Creuset is one of my most treasured possessions.
  - blueprint 3y ago
    True, they're a joy to cook in but one thing I love about my ratchet high carbon pan (which has been everywhere with me) is I can use metal on it.
blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
Nonstick pans require less fat to cook food. Is the health benefit of avoiding shedding greater than the benefit of being healthier in terms of fat percentage or weight? I am not so sure. Also as I recall PTFE coatings (Teflon is an example brand name) are no longer made with PFOA in the US or Europe. Yes, PTFE itself is a PFAS as well, but as far as I know it does not delaminate or shed as long as the pan is used at lower temperatures (less than 450F).
- blindriver 3y ago
  You do realize that the campaign of low fat diets has completely been extinguished in the last 10 years? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-diets-failed-experiment/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-d...
  - blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
    I think you’re misinterpreting the reevaluation of fats in recent years. I’m not demonizing fats and saying they need to be avoided entirely. But I am saying people (especially in America) need to moderate their intake of calories in general and fats specifically as well (as they’re a vehicle for calories). There are also different varieties of fats with different health effects. Using nonstick cookware is an easy way to reduce the intake of fats (and therefore calories) even if you are not banning them from your diet entirely. Let’s take a simple example: have you tried to make a fried egg in a cast iron pan and compared it to a nonstick pan? In a cast iron, you’ll need to use a pat of butter to get the egg to slide easily (around 100 calories). In nonstick you can get away with zero butter. It adds up.
    - happyopossum 3y ago
      A) A pat of butter is around 35 calories, and B) if you're putting a ton of butter in there it isn't exactly getting absorbed into the egg, most of it is left in the pan.
      - 3y ago
jim-jim-jim 3y ago
> we'll be wet Waxed cotton works well enough for me. Have also heard good things about boiled wool, but don't own anything like this.
samatman 3y ago
Once the fluorocarbons are made into PTFE, they no longer pose a threat. Teflon is so biologically inert that it gets used in medical devices implanted into humans. It isn't soluble in water or much of anything else. The problem is with PFOA and related compounds, which are used to make PTFE and friends.
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  PFOA specifically is no longer in wide use. Most prominent manufacturers stopped using it as part of the PTFE manufacturing process 10+ years ago. And yes, I agree the science thus far shows that PTFE is basically inert. And to the extent a PTFE coating can separate from a pan, it requires high heat beyond the advertised temperature limits of nonstick pans anyways.
- wucke13 3y ago
  Asbestos is super inert, which made it a very nice material for many applications. However, mechanical interactions of small particles with cellular matter can still cause health issues if I understand correctly. And this is, what the whole fuzz of micro plastics is about, not? Even without biological/chemical reaction, if particle size is small enough, ...
  - samatman 3y ago
    The reasons why asbestos is harmful do not apply to PTFE. As for micro-plastics, if your claim is that PTFE is no better, but no worse, than, say, polyethylene, well. I suspect you're wrong, and that it's better, but no matter: at that point there's no reason to single it out.
waste_monk 3y ago
>we'll need to revert back to pans seasoned the old fashioned way (less convenient, careful washing). There are plenty of non-nonstick (stick?) options besides cast iron. Most of my cookware is stainless steel (with a thick disk of copper under the pan for thermal inertia) and I've never felt it's an inconvenience or difficult to clean - in fact, its durable nature allows for the use of coarse scrubbers or acid-based cleaning products that would quickly ruin a non-stick pan.
adrr 3y ago
So we can get cancer from all the aldehydes and PAHs caused by overheating oil till in forms a polymer from oxidation. Even worse if you season the pan in your oven or stove top since now your breathing all that carcinogenic smoke in.

beejiu 3y ago

> revert back to pans seasoned the old fashioned way Stainless steel is the more convenient option.

dham 3y ago
But somehow butter and lard are bad, that's how this whole thing started
singleshot_ 3y ago
It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken, as they used to say.
yumraj 3y ago
And cast iron, which can get enough non-stick for many uses.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  As long as one doesn't mistake carcinogenic leftovers from previous cooking for seasoning. It's somehow common to think that seasoning means some deep umami flavor from food bits that get baked into it over time, when it only means the initial seasoning of the metal as a chemical process and still means you should wash your dishes like anything else after it's seasoned. and regular seasoning isn't stripped by washing with dish soap
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Isn't that the seasoned alternative?
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  This is true, but maintaining the seasoning is annoying. If you want to scrub your pan out and get it really clean, or leave it soaking, you will likely need to repeat the seasoning process. It gets frustrating to have to coat it in oil and fire up the oven and all of that. You also cannot cook certain foods in cast iron pans due to this. For example, if you want to make a tomato-based sauce, you will risk leeching metal into your food due to the acidity. Personally I think each type of material has its place in the kitchen (nonstick, stainless steel, cast iron, enameled cast iron, etc)
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    > If you want to scrub your pan out and get it really clean, You can scrub just fine with a chain scrubber or metal scraper. You shouldn't use Scotch-Brite pads, sandpaper, or other highly abrasive methods, but scrubbing is not an issue. You shouldn't soak. You can use most dish soaps. Some detergents are still caustic, but anything you can get on your hands without issue is fine. Don't use Ajax or similar highly alkaline and/or abrasive compounds. No lye. Re-seasoning after cleaning shouldn't need the oven. Get it hot on medium-low heat, wipe it with a thin layer of a reasonably unsaturated oil (refined olive oil, rapeseed AKA Canola oil, etc.) on a rag. Let it cool. If you really screwed it up repeat the process a once or twice. If you've totally stripped the pan and are putting on a totally new seasoning, 6-10 times is enough. All that said, I agree about acidic foods. Much like highly alkaline cleaners, they can degrade the seasoning. I use stainless steel for those. I likewise agree that each type of material has its place. I don't use nonstick because I have pet birds, and even tiny amounts of overheating can cause enough fumes to kill them. The rest are all useful to me.
  - cvz 3y ago
    If it's seasoned properly, it really is non-stick and that makes it trivial to clean without soaking or excessive scrubbing. I've cooked with the same cast iron pan, daily, for years, and it only gave me trouble when I had a habit of soaking it. At some point I stopped doing that, re-seasoned it, and stuck to just soaping, scrubbing, rinsing, and drying. It's never given me problems since. I only had to be careful what I was using it for while I was still re-seasoning it, and I also haven't needed to re-season it since. (I use enough oil just from my normal cooking.) As far as cooking things like tomato sauce in it, I agree that should be avoided if possible, but the main concern there is damage to the pan, not health. It would take a lot of leaching to get iron poisoning, assuming you don't have hemochromatosis.
denkmoon 3y ago
I love my stainless steel pans but there is a reason non stick pans are by far the most popular. It requires planning (ie. food cannot come straight from the refridgerator) and technique (get pan hot _before_ adding oil/fat) to not leave half your meal stuck to the pan. Most people who don't get joy out of cooking don't want to deal with this. People are cooking at home for themselves less and less, and this has its own healthcare cost. Anything that reduces the number of people cooking at home is almost certainly a net loss for public health.

swatcoder 3y ago

The many among us who already avoid those products, or who haven't gotten practical access to them, may be surprised by the tradeoffs you describe. Just because a technology has become pervasive in some lives doesn't mean that it does a lot that matters. Like any other tradition, its value is often incidental and its popularity is mostly an accident of history (marketing, curiosity, fashion, ephemeral supply/industry shocks, etc). Nonstick pans and synthetic fabrics are very much in that group.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
It's just a learning issue, how to use a steel pan or similar safer alternatives. There are cultural memes about what to use and why and what's easier and harder.
dylan604 3y ago
This is a very myopic view. The people to do like these things have a lot more money to spend to ensure these things are around for a while. While my view might be cynical, it is closer to reality than getting people to give up creature comforts voluntarily.
- phkahler 3y ago
  >> The people to do like these things have a lot more money to spend to ensure these things are around for a while. No. If these things were never invented, those people would no be asking for them. Least not very much.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    >If these things were never invented what an even more myopic view. if only unicorns were real and pots of gold were at the ends of rainbows. if only wishing made it so. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 3y ago

blueprint 3y ago

honestly it's way easier for me to wash my high carbon lodge pan (and i can put that sucker directly into the oven) because i use steel wire ball, maybe a little soap, and hot water briefly and it's done. reseasoning up to the level needed is trivial with each use but one doesnt really worry about a proper season unless one cleans the pan with some insane pressure and soap. and pans dont really need to be seasoned to be used. the season helps avoid rust a little but then again you can simply store it with a finish of oil on if youre concerned about that. to be frank cleaning a teflon etc pan is way more finicky because we need, hey, wait, more microplastics in the form of slowly degrading acrylic sponge pads or brushes etc.. but i guess you could use alternatives. but anyway, there are also many other ways to keep dry lol it's not like teflon is the only solution

Spivak 3y ago
Another alternative is enameled cast iron if you don't want to think about seasoning. My Le Creuset is one of my most treasured possessions.
- blueprint 3y ago
  True, they're a joy to cook in but one thing I love about my ratchet high carbon pan (which has been everywhere with me) is I can use metal on it.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago

Nonstick pans require less fat to cook food. Is the health benefit of avoiding shedding greater than the benefit of being healthier in terms of fat percentage or weight? I am not so sure. Also as I recall PTFE coatings (Teflon is an example brand name) are no longer made with PFOA in the US or Europe. Yes, PTFE itself is a PFAS as well, but as far as I know it does not delaminate or shed as long as the pan is used at lower temperatures (less than 450F).

blindriver 3y ago
You do realize that the campaign of low fat diets has completely been extinguished in the last 10 years? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-diets-failed-experiment/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-d...
- blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
  I think you’re misinterpreting the reevaluation of fats in recent years. I’m not demonizing fats and saying they need to be avoided entirely. But I am saying people (especially in America) need to moderate their intake of calories in general and fats specifically as well (as they’re a vehicle for calories). There are also different varieties of fats with different health effects. Using nonstick cookware is an easy way to reduce the intake of fats (and therefore calories) even if you are not banning them from your diet entirely. Let’s take a simple example: have you tried to make a fried egg in a cast iron pan and compared it to a nonstick pan? In a cast iron, you’ll need to use a pat of butter to get the egg to slide easily (around 100 calories). In nonstick you can get away with zero butter. It adds up.
  - happyopossum 3y ago
    A) A pat of butter is around 35 calories, and B) if you're putting a ton of butter in there it isn't exactly getting absorbed into the egg, most of it is left in the pan.
    - 3y ago

jim-jim-jim 3y ago

> we'll be wet Waxed cotton works well enough for me. Have also heard good things about boiled wool, but don't own anything like this.

samatman 3y ago

Once the fluorocarbons are made into PTFE, they no longer pose a threat. Teflon is so biologically inert that it gets used in medical devices implanted into humans. It isn't soluble in water or much of anything else. The problem is with PFOA and related compounds, which are used to make PTFE and friends.

blackeyeblitzar 3y ago
PFOA specifically is no longer in wide use. Most prominent manufacturers stopped using it as part of the PTFE manufacturing process 10+ years ago. And yes, I agree the science thus far shows that PTFE is basically inert. And to the extent a PTFE coating can separate from a pan, it requires high heat beyond the advertised temperature limits of nonstick pans anyways.
wucke13 3y ago
Asbestos is super inert, which made it a very nice material for many applications. However, mechanical interactions of small particles with cellular matter can still cause health issues if I understand correctly. And this is, what the whole fuzz of micro plastics is about, not? Even without biological/chemical reaction, if particle size is small enough, ...
- samatman 3y ago
  The reasons why asbestos is harmful do not apply to PTFE. As for micro-plastics, if your claim is that PTFE is no better, but no worse, than, say, polyethylene, well. I suspect you're wrong, and that it's better, but no matter: at that point there's no reason to single it out.

waste_monk 3y ago

>we'll need to revert back to pans seasoned the old fashioned way (less convenient, careful washing). There are plenty of non-nonstick (stick?) options besides cast iron. Most of my cookware is stainless steel (with a thick disk of copper under the pan for thermal inertia) and I've never felt it's an inconvenience or difficult to clean - in fact, its durable nature allows for the use of coarse scrubbers or acid-based cleaning products that would quickly ruin a non-stick pan.

adrr 3y ago

So we can get cancer from all the aldehydes and PAHs caused by overheating oil till in forms a polymer from oxidation. Even worse if you season the pan in your oven or stove top since now your breathing all that carcinogenic smoke in.