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I don't think that sports that pay people to suffer violence should have a place in modern society. I know that this would ruin multiple billion dollar industr

I don't think that sports that pay people to suffer violence should have a place in modern society. I know that this would ruin multiple billion dollar industries as we know them (boxing, MMA, gridiron football, more), so nothing substantive will change, but in my opinion there's a grotesque conflict when we're paying people to put up with TBIs, broken bones, et cetera. There are sports where violence and injury are clearly not the goal but aren't negligible, such as racecar drivers and baseball pitchers, and I don't know how to approach those -- but violence as sport seems far more clear cut.

ok_dad 2y ago
I don’t understand why they don’t use more gear, like helmets, and perhaps disallow head strikes and other dangerous moves like in other martial arts tournaments. It seems like the brutality is the point. Then again, the NFL has concussion issues but they aren’t trying to punch each other. In any case, it seems toxic to allow this violence for sport.
- kevinmchugh 2y ago
  Headgear is used in some combat sports, including Olympic boxing. It makes the head a bigger target, which means the head gets hit more. Those strikes may be less severe, since they're cushioned. But taking more hits is bad. There certainly are sports that ban head strikes. Certain forms of karate, for instance. Fight fans _like_ seeing heads get punched, and they like seeing knock outs. There's not currently a very big market that wants to see fighting without head strikes.
  - NegativeK 2y ago
    > Fight fans _like_ seeing heads get punched, and they like seeing knock outs. I think that's a huge symptom of my point. You can strip out tackles from football and make MMA way safer, but the large MMA competitions are popular because they're closer to two people doing whatever they can to win a fight than something more restrictive, like karate or wrestling. As you mention, the fans will be pissed at safening the sport, and I'd almost bet money that the vast majority of the fighters would be pissed as well -- just like I've seen plenty of coworkers and workers in other industries get angry at OSHA regulations, even the ones that are as ridiculously straightforward as labeling the bottle of formaldehyde so someone doesn't spritz it around a clinic.
    - kevinmchugh 2y ago
      I think people have different thresholds to watching violence, and there's a spectrum from cartoon violence to street fights to war footage. My mom doesn't like to see punching, even in cartoon form. I enjoy everything as long as it's consensual, fair, and well compensated (so not street fights). The most common preference is somewhere between a Captain America movie and a John Wick movie, I think. Folks who can't stand to see real violence wish it just didn't happen, the way I wish street fights didn't happen. But you're not gonna get anywhere offering what an MMA fan understand as an inferior product. And the MMA fans know there's karate and wrestling and BJJ to watch, they just aren't as interested in it. I don't try to rationalize it much. I know most people, especially in the circles I'm in, can't stand to look at it. I don't mind that. The idea that society has moved past the need for violent spectacle or something just doesn't work for me, because I enjoy the sport. And plenty of other people do, too Fighters for the most part are going to do what will make them the most money. If the fans are there for knockouts, they're gonna go for knockouts. If BJJ tournaments offered the same money making opportunities that MMA does, a bunch of fighters would very happily switch
      - djtango 2y ago
        > The idea that society has moved past the need for violent spectacle or something just doesn't work for me, because I enjoy the sport. And plenty of other people do, too Ironically the growth of UFC and Boxing tells me we're trending back to the Roman days. Sure we won't have full on gladiators but everything old is new again feels like...
        panick21_ 2y ago
        The reality is combat sports have been popular for many 1000s of years. Before the romans and after. Certain forms of wresting were incredibly popular in the past. The amount of people that watched or listen to major historical boxing fights is crazy. To hold up Roman as some sort of maxima doesnt really hold up. Its just that they were rich so they invested more in spectical, just as we do now.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  You are right, brutality is the point, it is what sells. It would be much less appealing for large amount of crowds to have everyone in soft helmets with no stakes. It appeals to a certain set of raw desire that humans have within them, shaped by natural selection.
nradov 2y ago
Violence is part of the human condition. I find it bizarre and disturbing that some people are so cut off from this reality that they want to artificially eliminate violence altogether.
- criddell 2y ago
  Would you have a problem with modern gladiator games where combatants fight to the death? If so, then you agree with the person you responded to, you just want to draw the line in a different place.
  - winphone1974 2y ago
    I don't think I have a problem with the concept, but do with someone who feels this is their only option, organizers making money off of this and viewers who would demand this and pay for it. Individuals taking extreme personal risks? No problem with that.
- NegativeK 2y ago
  > so cut off from this reality That feels like an ad hominem, but I'll focus on what I think your point is. I don't really have a problem with amateur MMA, etc. But paying people for violence as a sport isn't just acknowledging it; it's encouraging it. And it's encouraging athletes to push themselves into injury, some of which is life destroying.
  - HKH2 2y ago
    If you ban it, it'll still happen, just not regulated.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  If paying people to fight is not artificial violence, what possibly could be?
Teever 2y ago
What are your thoughts on BDSM? Should people be allowed to attend private sex clubs where consensual sexual violence is a key part of the group activity?
- bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
  That violence usually doesn't have long term debilitating consequences, does it?
- NegativeK 2y ago
  My complaint is almost entirely around money as an incentive to put up with or ignore life-long issues like TBI/repeated concussion. My complaint falls away when you remove the profit or the long-term injury.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    So only rich amateurs get to play. How old school of you.
philbin 2y ago
[dead]
djtango 2y ago
I always get a reality check when I encounter people who find boxing brutal. Reminds me how normalised I am to the martial arts world. Boxing is beautiful so are many of the other martial arts, but there is something just so magical about a good boxing fight that can have skill and technique, emotion and grit. And actually watching all the other adjacent sports - MMA, Muay Thai, Kickboxing just serves to elevate boxing and show how much further you can take an idea when you specialise. From what I know, boxing seems way safer than say NFL nowadays but you know it's not "fighting".

ok_dad 2y ago

I don’t understand why they don’t use more gear, like helmets, and perhaps disallow head strikes and other dangerous moves like in other martial arts tournaments. It seems like the brutality is the point. Then again, the NFL has concussion issues but they aren’t trying to punch each other. In any case, it seems toxic to allow this violence for sport.

kevinmchugh 2y ago
Headgear is used in some combat sports, including Olympic boxing. It makes the head a bigger target, which means the head gets hit more. Those strikes may be less severe, since they're cushioned. But taking more hits is bad. There certainly are sports that ban head strikes. Certain forms of karate, for instance. Fight fans _like_ seeing heads get punched, and they like seeing knock outs. There's not currently a very big market that wants to see fighting without head strikes.
- NegativeK 2y ago
  > Fight fans _like_ seeing heads get punched, and they like seeing knock outs. I think that's a huge symptom of my point. You can strip out tackles from football and make MMA way safer, but the large MMA competitions are popular because they're closer to two people doing whatever they can to win a fight than something more restrictive, like karate or wrestling. As you mention, the fans will be pissed at safening the sport, and I'd almost bet money that the vast majority of the fighters would be pissed as well -- just like I've seen plenty of coworkers and workers in other industries get angry at OSHA regulations, even the ones that are as ridiculously straightforward as labeling the bottle of formaldehyde so someone doesn't spritz it around a clinic.
  - kevinmchugh 2y ago
    I think people have different thresholds to watching violence, and there's a spectrum from cartoon violence to street fights to war footage. My mom doesn't like to see punching, even in cartoon form. I enjoy everything as long as it's consensual, fair, and well compensated (so not street fights). The most common preference is somewhere between a Captain America movie and a John Wick movie, I think. Folks who can't stand to see real violence wish it just didn't happen, the way I wish street fights didn't happen. But you're not gonna get anywhere offering what an MMA fan understand as an inferior product. And the MMA fans know there's karate and wrestling and BJJ to watch, they just aren't as interested in it. I don't try to rationalize it much. I know most people, especially in the circles I'm in, can't stand to look at it. I don't mind that. The idea that society has moved past the need for violent spectacle or something just doesn't work for me, because I enjoy the sport. And plenty of other people do, too Fighters for the most part are going to do what will make them the most money. If the fans are there for knockouts, they're gonna go for knockouts. If BJJ tournaments offered the same money making opportunities that MMA does, a bunch of fighters would very happily switch
    - djtango 2y ago
      > The idea that society has moved past the need for violent spectacle or something just doesn't work for me, because I enjoy the sport. And plenty of other people do, too Ironically the growth of UFC and Boxing tells me we're trending back to the Roman days. Sure we won't have full on gladiators but everything old is new again feels like...
      - panick21_ 2y ago
        The reality is combat sports have been popular for many 1000s of years. Before the romans and after. Certain forms of wresting were incredibly popular in the past. The amount of people that watched or listen to major historical boxing fights is crazy. To hold up Roman as some sort of maxima doesnt really hold up. Its just that they were rich so they invested more in spectical, just as we do now.
mewpmewp2 2y ago
You are right, brutality is the point, it is what sells. It would be much less appealing for large amount of crowds to have everyone in soft helmets with no stakes. It appeals to a certain set of raw desire that humans have within them, shaped by natural selection.

nradov 2y ago

Violence is part of the human condition. I find it bizarre and disturbing that some people are so cut off from this reality that they want to artificially eliminate violence altogether.

criddell 2y ago
Would you have a problem with modern gladiator games where combatants fight to the death? If so, then you agree with the person you responded to, you just want to draw the line in a different place.
- winphone1974 2y ago
  I don't think I have a problem with the concept, but do with someone who feels this is their only option, organizers making money off of this and viewers who would demand this and pay for it. Individuals taking extreme personal risks? No problem with that.
NegativeK 2y ago
> so cut off from this reality That feels like an ad hominem, but I'll focus on what I think your point is. I don't really have a problem with amateur MMA, etc. But paying people for violence as a sport isn't just acknowledging it; it's encouraging it. And it's encouraging athletes to push themselves into injury, some of which is life destroying.
- HKH2 2y ago
  If you ban it, it'll still happen, just not regulated.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
If paying people to fight is not artificial violence, what possibly could be?

Teever 2y ago

What are your thoughts on BDSM? Should people be allowed to attend private sex clubs where consensual sexual violence is a key part of the group activity?

bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
That violence usually doesn't have long term debilitating consequences, does it?
NegativeK 2y ago
My complaint is almost entirely around money as an incentive to put up with or ignore life-long issues like TBI/repeated concussion. My complaint falls away when you remove the profit or the long-term injury.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  So only rich amateurs get to play. How old school of you.

philbin 2y ago

[dead]

djtango 2y ago

I always get a reality check when I encounter people who find boxing brutal. Reminds me how normalised I am to the martial arts world. Boxing is beautiful so are many of the other martial arts, but there is something just so magical about a good boxing fight that can have skill and technique, emotion and grit. And actually watching all the other adjacent sports - MMA, Muay Thai, Kickboxing just serves to elevate boxing and show how much further you can take an idea when you specialise. From what I know, boxing seems way safer than say NFL nowadays but you know it's not "fighting".