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Love this! As a consumer, there's nothing like open pricing. However, as a provider I can totally see a situation where I (proverbially, I'm not in this busine

Love this! As a consumer, there's nothing like open pricing. However, as a provider I can totally see a situation where I (proverbially, I'm not in this business) sue you for disclosing what amounts to a trade secret (depending on what's in the fine print) and compel you to give up all documents so I can go after my loose-lipped client too. I hope you've got your legal bases covered

uoaei 2y ago
Is there precedent that points in either direction that pricing details are considered a trade secret (or whatever the legally enforceable version of that is)?
- passwordoops 2y ago
  I've signed and written quotes that have those provisions. What the legal standing is, I can't comment on because it never came to that. This is with the obvious caveat that public tenders are the exception, but only after it's awarded
- staticautomatic 2y ago
  Sure. Broadly, a trade secret under state and federal law is "information that derives independent economic value from not being generally known to the public or people who can obtain economic value from it and is the subject of efforts to maintain its secrecy that are reasonable under the circumstances." Price lists could clearly fall under this definition, and they do! Here's an 8th circuit case where the plaintiff "adequately allege[d] that the information that was purportedly misappropriated— ... pricing information ... qualifies as trade secret[]." Ahern Rentals, 59 F.4th 948 (2023).
- tyingq 2y ago
  There's precedent that points in both directions. There was a fair amount of research when there was a push for transparency in hospital pricing for services in the US. One piece of research: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/OHS/Healthcare-Cabinet/2021-Meetings/March-9/Gudiksen_Secret-of-Health-Care-Prices_CHCF.pdf https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/OHS/Healthcare-Cabinet/2021-Me... You'll see there's some cited court cases that supported pricing as a trade secret, and some that held it was not. It seems to be still pretty muddy legally.
mickael-kerjean 2y ago
Loving this as well from the point of view of a small saas provider who has no idea what typical enterprise contract runs for.
RowanH 2y ago
I can totally see some uninformed staff member contributing what they're paying for things, and landing their employer in deep, deep, trouble with their suppliers. I've found in competitive price analysis there's some companies that do very, very, well at hiding their pricing. If they've worked that hard, that long, to protect/hide pricing they're not going to take it lying down.
unstatusthequo 2y ago
Pricing isn’t a trade secret.
- nosefurhairdo 2y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but it seems possible that an enterprise software licensing agreement could contain a non-disclosure agreement or confidentiality clause. Not making a value judgement and happy to be corrected if this is not a thing.
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    Sounds like something the FTC should investigate.
    - mediaman 2y ago
      What are they going to investigate? The FTC is going to render contractual terms negotiated in good faith between well-represented and sophisticated commercial buyers “just because”? If a big buyer wants better terms, the seller might give it to them under the condition the pricing info isn’t leaked, spoiling the rest of their market. Otherwise they don’t give it. So the buyer agrees to confidentiality to get the best terms. There’s zero chance the FTC gets in the middle of this kind of negotiation.
      - thayne 2y ago
        One might be able to argue that by keeping the pricing secret the big buyer is colluding with the seller to give the seller an advantage in in negotiating prices with other buyers, which could include competitors of the big buyer. I think that would be unlikely to go anywhere with the current FTC though.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        > The FTC is going to render contractual terms negotiated in good faith between well-represented and sophisticated commercial buyers “just because”? Because without price transparency, markets do not work (microecon 101, prices are the signals from which supply and demand curve movements are determined). How can participants in a society determine where to allocate supply of resources without being able to see prices? And making markets work more efficiently should surely be in the purview of the Federal Trade Commission.
spxneo 2y ago
prices aren't a trade secret and difficult to enforce even if its covered under an NDA
- passwordoops 2y ago
  "prices aren't a trade secret" Is there a basis for this in recent case law? And how difficult would it be to enforce against a 3rd party actively publishing pricing, and therefore competitive, strategy? Nope I'm not staying they should shut down or they will get sued, but they should do the sensible thing and talk to a good lawyer
  - spxneo 2y ago
    there hasn't been any caselaw from my knowledge where they went after a customer for revealing the price of a software license prices wouldn't be enforceable because knowing how much you charge isn't revealing anything proprietary (because you have to tell your customers in order to get them to make a decision). Also not exactly possible to expect confidentiality around prices because your banks and their staff will see it..
    - passwordoops 2y ago
      Just to be clear, we both agree we're not lawyers But I can argue that pricing is part of my strategy and revealing pricing information in cases where I explicitly forbade it is potentially damaging because it allows a competitor to undercut me. I'd be surprised if they do go after a client, but my concern for these guys is they are not a client. They are an aggregator of this information. If any of these quotes were given with the caveat that pricing should not be shared, then a named company who's on the pricier side might have a good leg to stand on arguing this site damaged their business with what amounts to a trade secret (pricing strategy). At three very least or could result in a letter and headaches. Asking for who gave the information is something I would totally see too, especially if this was a client who jumped ship, if anything else just as a scare tactic/revenge
      - 2y ago
mox1 2y ago
Just to let you know this kind of pricing information is available and given out during F500 SaaS deals. Our microsoft reseller was using pricing and contract info on a deal he closed last week to assure us he would and could get us a similar deal. Gartner will literally cutthtoat re-negotiate any large contract you have, using pricing data they have gathered from their members. Call them up tomorrow, tell them your current cost for Splunk, they will tell you exactly how much you can save. So this type of thing is not illegal and not even frowned upon for the big players.
- jpgvm 2y ago
  Once you are big enough to have a procurement department this isn't just not frowned upon it's expected and very much "part of the game". I personally hate it but it's just how the game is played and it's why all enterprise software has stupidly high advertised prices so they can give "90% discounts" and let people think that is a good deal when it is ultimately just the real price that all the big players are getting anyway.
  - pcl 2y ago
    When I worked at BEA (which I think published its prices), the steep discounts on a crazy high price actually had a clever reason — evidently the sales team could discount the list price pretty freely, but they were forbidden to discount the yearly support and maintenance fees. Sorta subscription pricing before it was cool.
    - fraserharris 2y ago
      Support & maintenance have radically lower margins than software licenses. Without discounting rules, sales can craft deals that lose the company money.
- vasco 2y ago
  My practical experience with vendor negotiations is you ask for a discount and talk to them honestly and make the sales person have a good time with you and you don't need to play hardball, say you have some secret information or other crap. I have seen many contracts negotiated by a regular engineering manager and by "proper" procurement people, and the outcome is clear that hardball negotiations end up in worse outcomes than just being a nice person and speaking plainly.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I’m not sure you can sue to block price signals and that seems blatantly anti competitive. Also other services provide this type of intelligence already, like Vendr, Sastrify, Torii, etc.
instagib 2y ago
Most of the quotes I get have clauses about not disclosing them to others. Prices may be okay but the entire quote can include drawings, specific item information, etc. I had to get a lot of quotes and talking to legal is painful.
rmbyrro 2y ago
Price being a trade secret and legal fears for telling people a price number shows how far we are from a free market society. This is ridiculous. If there's one piece of information that is public by nature in a free market is price, folks. We should bash on any business that tries to manipulate the legal system to destroy price publicity. They should be the ones in fear.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  > If there's one piece of information that is public by nature in a free market is price, folks. The whole concept of a market does not work without price transparency. The more price transparency, the more efficient the market.
burnte 2y ago
Prices aren't trade secrets.
pc86 2y ago
There is no scenario where pricing information can legitimately be described as a trade secret. Sure you may be able to find some unscrupulous attorney who will make the argument that you charging $5 for one thing and $6 for another is somehow a "trade secret" so they can keep on billing, but that's only "legitimate" in the sense that a dictator is legitimate because they hold power. Price transparency and discoverability is a bedrock tenant of free market capitalism and any market to the contrary should be viewed as a direct attack on the free market. It's about as un-American a thing as you can get.
adql 2y ago
> However, as a provider I can totally see a situation where I (proverbially, I'm not in this business) sue you for disclosing what amounts to a trade secret (depending on what's in the fine print) and compel you to give up all documents so I can go after my loose-lipped client too. I don't see this holding in court aside from the company needing to remove that info from the site. You are not beholden to NDA you have not signed, and it woudld be employee that shared it breaking any agreements, not the company that then shared it.

uoaei 2y ago

Is there precedent that points in either direction that pricing details are considered a trade secret (or whatever the legally enforceable version of that is)?

passwordoops 2y ago
I've signed and written quotes that have those provisions. What the legal standing is, I can't comment on because it never came to that. This is with the obvious caveat that public tenders are the exception, but only after it's awarded
staticautomatic 2y ago
Sure. Broadly, a trade secret under state and federal law is "information that derives independent economic value from not being generally known to the public or people who can obtain economic value from it and is the subject of efforts to maintain its secrecy that are reasonable under the circumstances." Price lists could clearly fall under this definition, and they do! Here's an 8th circuit case where the plaintiff "adequately allege[d] that the information that was purportedly misappropriated— ... pricing information ... qualifies as trade secret[]." Ahern Rentals, 59 F.4th 948 (2023).
tyingq 2y ago
There's precedent that points in both directions. There was a fair amount of research when there was a push for transparency in hospital pricing for services in the US. One piece of research: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/OHS/Healthcare-Cabinet/2021-Meetings/March-9/Gudiksen_Secret-of-Health-Care-Prices_CHCF.pdf https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/OHS/Healthcare-Cabinet/2021-Me... You'll see there's some cited court cases that supported pricing as a trade secret, and some that held it was not. It seems to be still pretty muddy legally.

mickael-kerjean 2y ago

Loving this as well from the point of view of a small saas provider who has no idea what typical enterprise contract runs for.

RowanH 2y ago

I can totally see some uninformed staff member contributing what they're paying for things, and landing their employer in deep, deep, trouble with their suppliers. I've found in competitive price analysis there's some companies that do very, very, well at hiding their pricing. If they've worked that hard, that long, to protect/hide pricing they're not going to take it lying down.

unstatusthequo 2y ago

Pricing isn’t a trade secret.

nosefurhairdo 2y ago
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems possible that an enterprise software licensing agreement could contain a non-disclosure agreement or confidentiality clause. Not making a value judgement and happy to be corrected if this is not a thing.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  Sounds like something the FTC should investigate.
  - mediaman 2y ago
    What are they going to investigate? The FTC is going to render contractual terms negotiated in good faith between well-represented and sophisticated commercial buyers “just because”? If a big buyer wants better terms, the seller might give it to them under the condition the pricing info isn’t leaked, spoiling the rest of their market. Otherwise they don’t give it. So the buyer agrees to confidentiality to get the best terms. There’s zero chance the FTC gets in the middle of this kind of negotiation.
    - thayne 2y ago
      One might be able to argue that by keeping the pricing secret the big buyer is colluding with the seller to give the seller an advantage in in negotiating prices with other buyers, which could include competitors of the big buyer. I think that would be unlikely to go anywhere with the current FTC though.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      > The FTC is going to render contractual terms negotiated in good faith between well-represented and sophisticated commercial buyers “just because”? Because without price transparency, markets do not work (microecon 101, prices are the signals from which supply and demand curve movements are determined). How can participants in a society determine where to allocate supply of resources without being able to see prices? And making markets work more efficiently should surely be in the purview of the Federal Trade Commission.

spxneo 2y ago

prices aren't a trade secret and difficult to enforce even if its covered under an NDA

passwordoops 2y ago
"prices aren't a trade secret" Is there a basis for this in recent case law? And how difficult would it be to enforce against a 3rd party actively publishing pricing, and therefore competitive, strategy? Nope I'm not staying they should shut down or they will get sued, but they should do the sensible thing and talk to a good lawyer
- spxneo 2y ago
  there hasn't been any caselaw from my knowledge where they went after a customer for revealing the price of a software license prices wouldn't be enforceable because knowing how much you charge isn't revealing anything proprietary (because you have to tell your customers in order to get them to make a decision). Also not exactly possible to expect confidentiality around prices because your banks and their staff will see it..
  - passwordoops 2y ago
    Just to be clear, we both agree we're not lawyers But I can argue that pricing is part of my strategy and revealing pricing information in cases where I explicitly forbade it is potentially damaging because it allows a competitor to undercut me. I'd be surprised if they do go after a client, but my concern for these guys is they are not a client. They are an aggregator of this information. If any of these quotes were given with the caveat that pricing should not be shared, then a named company who's on the pricier side might have a good leg to stand on arguing this site damaged their business with what amounts to a trade secret (pricing strategy). At three very least or could result in a letter and headaches. Asking for who gave the information is something I would totally see too, especially if this was a client who jumped ship, if anything else just as a scare tactic/revenge
    - 2y ago

mox1 2y ago

Just to let you know this kind of pricing information is available and given out during F500 SaaS deals. Our microsoft reseller was using pricing and contract info on a deal he closed last week to assure us he would and could get us a similar deal. Gartner will literally cutthtoat re-negotiate any large contract you have, using pricing data they have gathered from their members. Call them up tomorrow, tell them your current cost for Splunk, they will tell you exactly how much you can save. So this type of thing is not illegal and not even frowned upon for the big players.

jpgvm 2y ago
Once you are big enough to have a procurement department this isn't just not frowned upon it's expected and very much "part of the game". I personally hate it but it's just how the game is played and it's why all enterprise software has stupidly high advertised prices so they can give "90% discounts" and let people think that is a good deal when it is ultimately just the real price that all the big players are getting anyway.
- pcl 2y ago
  When I worked at BEA (which I think published its prices), the steep discounts on a crazy high price actually had a clever reason — evidently the sales team could discount the list price pretty freely, but they were forbidden to discount the yearly support and maintenance fees. Sorta subscription pricing before it was cool.
  - fraserharris 2y ago
    Support & maintenance have radically lower margins than software licenses. Without discounting rules, sales can craft deals that lose the company money.
vasco 2y ago
My practical experience with vendor negotiations is you ask for a discount and talk to them honestly and make the sales person have a good time with you and you don't need to play hardball, say you have some secret information or other crap. I have seen many contracts negotiated by a regular engineering manager and by "proper" procurement people, and the outcome is clear that hardball negotiations end up in worse outcomes than just being a nice person and speaking plainly.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I’m not sure you can sue to block price signals and that seems blatantly anti competitive. Also other services provide this type of intelligence already, like Vendr, Sastrify, Torii, etc.

instagib 2y ago

Most of the quotes I get have clauses about not disclosing them to others. Prices may be okay but the entire quote can include drawings, specific item information, etc. I had to get a lot of quotes and talking to legal is painful.

rmbyrro 2y ago

Price being a trade secret and legal fears for telling people a price number shows how far we are from a free market society. This is ridiculous. If there's one piece of information that is public by nature in a free market is price, folks. We should bash on any business that tries to manipulate the legal system to destroy price publicity. They should be the ones in fear.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
> If there's one piece of information that is public by nature in a free market is price, folks. The whole concept of a market does not work without price transparency. The more price transparency, the more efficient the market.

burnte 2y ago

Prices aren't trade secrets.

pc86 2y ago

There is no scenario where pricing information can legitimately be described as a trade secret. Sure you may be able to find some unscrupulous attorney who will make the argument that you charging $5 for one thing and $6 for another is somehow a "trade secret" so they can keep on billing, but that's only "legitimate" in the sense that a dictator is legitimate because they hold power. Price transparency and discoverability is a bedrock tenant of free market capitalism and any market to the contrary should be viewed as a direct attack on the free market. It's about as un-American a thing as you can get.

adql 2y ago

> However, as a provider I can totally see a situation where I (proverbially, I'm not in this business) sue you for disclosing what amounts to a trade secret (depending on what's in the fine print) and compel you to give up all documents so I can go after my loose-lipped client too. I don't see this holding in court aside from the company needing to remove that info from the site. You are not beholden to NDA you have not signed, and it woudld be employee that shared it breaking any agreements, not the company that then shared it.