3 ms·

Is there any where in the world that's not feeling pain from housing? I'm pretty sure the entire world is struggling. Peppe I know across the US can't make hous

by tayo42 3y ago

Is there any where in the world that's not feeling pain from housing? I'm pretty sure the entire world is struggling. Peppe I know across the US can't make housing work. Idk how I can realistically purchase a house. I was just in Europe talking with people who brought up how hard it is to buy a home. I think each little area focuses on some red herring. Transplants, tech workers, digital nomads, foriegn investors, airbnb, but can those really be the same problem everywhere in the world? Idk seems like something else is going on.

foobarian 3y ago
I wonder if the "American dream" has managed to spread to the rest of the world and now young people have unrealistic expectations that they can buy a house like young people used to be able to in the States while it was still filling up. This was not a thing in most other places, with multigenerational living being the default.
- RowanH 3y ago
  The 'American Dream' is very similar in a lot of the OECD nations. NZ'er checking in. Late 40's - a good portion/most of my peer group bought houses in their mid 20's to 30's. Now the same age range can't unless they've got mega inehitances or very, very, good jobs. Ditto UK/Australia/Canada etc. All countries to a greater or lesser degree have the same cost of living crisis (arguably NZ is one of the worst at the moment).
- jeffbee 3y ago
  America did not have 200 million naturally-occurring houses that needed to be "filled up". 20th century Americans had to build them all. This is still the obvious and best way to relieve housing costs.
  - AmVess 3y ago
    This county owns land which it is going to develop for housing. Their goal? $450k houses because that will bring in more tax revenue than the same number of affordable homes. Clown world indeed.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Would kill for a $450k house. Here a 1970s condo needing complete renovation goes for 750k.
  - ravelfan 3y ago
    While this is true of course, it is easy for knowledge workers to say this when we aren't the ones pounding in nails all day. We speak as if the houses just build themselves and we just have to press these buttons in the right combination like software. Everyone involved basically has better options than to build more housing so it should be no surprise we have a shortage.
    - jeffbee 3y ago
      Sure but it's a matter of turning some policy knobs, and we know where they are and how much to turn them. The policies that prevent us from building are favorable tax treatment of existing properties and financial penalties for building new ones, favorable treatment of professional labor and penalization of productive labor. The "better options" of which you speak are policy outcomes and we can change the rules.
msie 3y ago
Yeah, it’s silly. There aren’t enough foreign investors to go around causing RE prices to soar everywhere.
prpl 3y ago
It’s definitely a combination of airbnb/tourism/digital nomads on the low end, and the rich buying shit up on the high end, with both ends facing little international resistance, and pleasant places get hit hard.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Don’t forget NIMBYS at the middle end.
laurieg 3y ago
Japan. Housing is affordable here. There's plenty of supply of single person apartments. Regular people can buy houses. Often the statistics hide this fact by comparing price per square foot, but the average apartment or house here is a lot smaller than in other places.
- standardUser 3y ago
  One of the benefits of a shrinking population.
  - chaostheory 3y ago
    They also do not have NIMBY legislation. They are able to build and have mixed use buildings ie business on the bottom and homes on top. The reason why there’s so much inventory is that rarely any of it is a single family home with a yard. They’re an outlier.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    But also just more permissive zoning. I live in a depopulating city, but even so, whenever a single-family home in my neighborhood is torn down, it is replaced with a 3-4 story multi-family unit, increasing densification. An old bowling alley was torn down and is being replaced with a massive 14-floor, 200-unit condo. Empty space near the train tracks has become two huge condo buildings (200 units each, built by Japan Rail, of course). And this is just in the past few years. Even in depopulating areas, huge projects are happening to increase housing supply as multi-generational households lose favor.
  - aikinai 3y ago
    Tokyo is not shrinking yet, but Tokyo housing is still plentiful and affordable.
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      I wondered if it was just a perception difference...I didn't get the feeling housing was still affordable, but it might depend on individual needs. To get an external perspective, average house pricing [0] and average rent [1] have stably rose, while average wages have stayed basicslly flat [2] during these years: [0] https://japanpropertycentral.com/2019/09/new-apartment-prices-in-japan-since-1956/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/2019/09/new-apartment-price... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202559/japan-rent-for-apartments-in-greater-tokyo-by-layout/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202559/japan-rent-for-a... [2] https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01631/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01631/
121789 3y ago
Japan?
mopsi 3y ago
You just don't hear news about affordable places because there's nothing to report. In Europe at least, housing is quite affordable outside of major cities and tourist hotspots like Ibiza. A couple with average income can get a nice home with reasonable ease in secondary cities. All you need is a 20% down payment and a steady income, of which your payments must not exceed 35%. This is not a very high bar. And it's not like the price of all real estate is that high either; the average price of 1 sq m was 3k EUR in Germany in 2023 and a typical apartment is 80-90 sq m.
- tasuki 3y ago
  Well yes in Germany. In the Czech Republic, an average monthly salary buys you about half a square metre. Supposing you don't spend on anything else. And most people earn less than the average...
xattt 3y ago
I am trying to imagine what relief is going to look like, but I can’t think of any easy scenario.
ensignavenger 3y ago
There are many places in the US that still have reasonably affordable houseing.
jeffbee 3y ago
Housing costs in Italy fell continuously for the last ten years, except in the very recent past, just the last few months, there have been real-money price increases. They have no economy and nobody wants to live there.
iancmceachern 3y ago
It's not the housing, it's the people making money off squeezing us all for housing, and the laws that allow them to do so.
codersfocus 3y ago
Another comment mentioned it, but Austria, specifically Vienna.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> Is there any where in the world that's not feeling pain from housing? Probably 90% of the United States by area. Honestly its just an urbanization problem. There are huge amounts of homes in safe neighborhoods in places you dont want to live in for 200k. See 95% of Pennsylvania for example.

by tayo42 3y ago

foobarian 3y ago

I wonder if the "American dream" has managed to spread to the rest of the world and now young people have unrealistic expectations that they can buy a house like young people used to be able to in the States while it was still filling up. This was not a thing in most other places, with multigenerational living being the default.

RowanH 3y ago
The 'American Dream' is very similar in a lot of the OECD nations. NZ'er checking in. Late 40's - a good portion/most of my peer group bought houses in their mid 20's to 30's. Now the same age range can't unless they've got mega inehitances or very, very, good jobs. Ditto UK/Australia/Canada etc. All countries to a greater or lesser degree have the same cost of living crisis (arguably NZ is one of the worst at the moment).
jeffbee 3y ago
America did not have 200 million naturally-occurring houses that needed to be "filled up". 20th century Americans had to build them all. This is still the obvious and best way to relieve housing costs.
- AmVess 3y ago
  This county owns land which it is going to develop for housing. Their goal? $450k houses because that will bring in more tax revenue than the same number of affordable homes. Clown world indeed.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Would kill for a $450k house. Here a 1970s condo needing complete renovation goes for 750k.
- ravelfan 3y ago
  While this is true of course, it is easy for knowledge workers to say this when we aren't the ones pounding in nails all day. We speak as if the houses just build themselves and we just have to press these buttons in the right combination like software. Everyone involved basically has better options than to build more housing so it should be no surprise we have a shortage.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    Sure but it's a matter of turning some policy knobs, and we know where they are and how much to turn them. The policies that prevent us from building are favorable tax treatment of existing properties and financial penalties for building new ones, favorable treatment of professional labor and penalization of productive labor. The "better options" of which you speak are policy outcomes and we can change the rules.

msie 3y ago

Yeah, it’s silly. There aren’t enough foreign investors to go around causing RE prices to soar everywhere.

prpl 3y ago

It’s definitely a combination of airbnb/tourism/digital nomads on the low end, and the rich buying shit up on the high end, with both ends facing little international resistance, and pleasant places get hit hard.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
Don’t forget NIMBYS at the middle end.

laurieg 3y ago

Japan. Housing is affordable here. There's plenty of supply of single person apartments. Regular people can buy houses. Often the statistics hide this fact by comparing price per square foot, but the average apartment or house here is a lot smaller than in other places.

standardUser 3y ago
One of the benefits of a shrinking population.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  They also do not have NIMBY legislation. They are able to build and have mixed use buildings ie business on the bottom and homes on top. The reason why there’s so much inventory is that rarely any of it is a single family home with a yard. They’re an outlier.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  But also just more permissive zoning. I live in a depopulating city, but even so, whenever a single-family home in my neighborhood is torn down, it is replaced with a 3-4 story multi-family unit, increasing densification. An old bowling alley was torn down and is being replaced with a massive 14-floor, 200-unit condo. Empty space near the train tracks has become two huge condo buildings (200 units each, built by Japan Rail, of course). And this is just in the past few years. Even in depopulating areas, huge projects are happening to increase housing supply as multi-generational households lose favor.
- aikinai 3y ago
  Tokyo is not shrinking yet, but Tokyo housing is still plentiful and affordable.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    I wondered if it was just a perception difference...I didn't get the feeling housing was still affordable, but it might depend on individual needs. To get an external perspective, average house pricing [0] and average rent [1] have stably rose, while average wages have stayed basicslly flat [2] during these years: [0] https://japanpropertycentral.com/2019/09/new-apartment-prices-in-japan-since-1956/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/2019/09/new-apartment-price... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202559/japan-rent-for-apartments-in-greater-tokyo-by-layout/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1202559/japan-rent-for-a... [2] https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01631/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01631/

121789 3y ago

Japan?

mopsi 3y ago

You just don't hear news about affordable places because there's nothing to report. In Europe at least, housing is quite affordable outside of major cities and tourist hotspots like Ibiza. A couple with average income can get a nice home with reasonable ease in secondary cities. All you need is a 20% down payment and a steady income, of which your payments must not exceed 35%. This is not a very high bar. And it's not like the price of all real estate is that high either; the average price of 1 sq m was 3k EUR in Germany in 2023 and a typical apartment is 80-90 sq m.

tasuki 3y ago
Well yes in Germany. In the Czech Republic, an average monthly salary buys you about half a square metre. Supposing you don't spend on anything else. And most people earn less than the average...

xattt 3y ago

I am trying to imagine what relief is going to look like, but I can’t think of any easy scenario.

ensignavenger 3y ago

There are many places in the US that still have reasonably affordable houseing.

jeffbee 3y ago

Housing costs in Italy fell continuously for the last ten years, except in the very recent past, just the last few months, there have been real-money price increases. They have no economy and nobody wants to live there.

iancmceachern 3y ago

It's not the housing, it's the people making money off squeezing us all for housing, and the laws that allow them to do so.

codersfocus 3y ago

Another comment mentioned it, but Austria, specifically Vienna.

nonethewiser 3y ago

> Is there any where in the world that's not feeling pain from housing? Probably 90% of the United States by area. Honestly its just an urbanization problem. There are huge amounts of homes in safe neighborhoods in places you dont want to live in for 200k. See 95% of Pennsylvania for example.