7 ms·

It's interesting they talk more about visual embellishments (aged paper, vintage looking finish) than acoustic properties. What is it about Stradivari or other

It's interesting they talk more about visual embellishments (aged paper, vintage looking finish) than acoustic properties. What is it about Stradivari or other hand made instruments that make them so coveted, are desirable sonic characteristics measurable and traceable to manufacturing techniques? Or is it all just halo effect?

ramenbytes 3y ago
Indeed. I've heard that certain acoustic guitar makers are starting do certain types of scientific analyses of the wood they buy for the guitar body to ascertain how it will behave, I wonder if there is any work being done in the violin community to quantify the behavior of their instruments. If anyone knows of an equivalent of Zollner's Physics of the Electric Guitar[0] for violins please share! [0] https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/ https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/
- john61 3y ago
  The guitar maker I know knocks on the raw soundboard and listens very close to the response. He can tell how it will sound in a guitar and how the guitar has to be built to support this particular soundboard and wanted characteristics of the guitar. (There are a lot of variables) He explained the difference in the knock response, and as musicians we could hear the difference too.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    It is called tap tuning and violin makers have been doing it for years. We don't know what Stradivarius, but nobody would be surprised by the claim that he was doing the same thing when making his violins. There is however a lot of debate in the luthier community on if it actually matters. Some claim it does and spend a lot of time on it, and have even setup fancy test fixtures to show patterns with different frequencies. However some claim it makes no difference and [I'm not sure what]. Both produce great instruments.
lolinder 3y ago
I suspect the focus on the visuals has more to do with the journalist's perspective as a layperson than the focus of the luthiers. My wife is a professional cellist and cello teacher, and she absolutely can tell the difference between a handmade instrument and a factory-made one. I've watched her appraise dozens of student cellos, and even though I can't hear the difference myself, I know how good an instrument is from the look on her face a few seconds into playing it. She never looks at the label or pays attention to the appearance of the body, the sound is the only thing that sets the good instruments apart for her. As I understand it, the difference between a crafted instrument and a factory one lies in the way the creator adapts (or doesn't) to the natural grain of the wood. A handmade instrument by an expert can't be beaten by a factory process because each piece of wood resonates differently and those differences must be accounted for to get a good sound.
- livueta 3y ago
  I was only ever a mediocre cellist (Suzuki book 7) but my sister was legit good and won a scholarship-ish thing to borrow some hundreds-of-years-old cello worth six figures. When playing it, even I could immediately tell the difference between it and my mass-produced Yamaha.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    > When playing it, even I could immediately tell the difference between it and my mass-produced Yamaha. I would imagine the CNC milled Yamahas to have much better quality control. It's the same in horology, "hand crafted" Swiss/German watches are valued over precision cut assembly line Seikos even though the Seiko complications are magnitudes more accurate and reliable than the Swiss ones.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      I could see differences due to materials. Wood is not uniform product, so picking the right section for right part might do something minor. Metal is metal and we get very exact and uniform properties with modern manufacturing. Now maybe we could question why have we not come up with anything better for these wood instruments? Like some mixture of plastic?
radarsat1 3y ago
There's actually lots of research on that topic, if you search for "Stradivarius blind listening" on Google Scholar you'll find some. Can't recommend a specific article unfortunately, but it's an interesting topic. My current understanding is that there is no perceptual difference that has been proven, and even later models are blindly judged to be better.
UberFly 3y ago
They are like an 18th century Japanese katana. The masters were unparalleled at creating revered quality. They would be my first choice in collecting. Tho, if my life depended on it, I'd take a blade crafted with modern technology.
- porkbeer 3y ago
  But you would be (half) wrong. Modern metalurgy trounces 10000 times folded, quenched in ancient fire. Modern shaping techiques are better and we can achieve a lighter, more flexible and tough blade. The issue is we dont. There is no reason to. Nobody is trusting their life to a katana today. so very few quality ones are made anymore. they are now more a symbol than a tool.
bsder 3y ago
> What is it about Stradivari or other hand made instruments that make them so coveted, are desirable sonic characteristics measurable and traceable to manufacturing techniques? Or is it all just halo effect? It 90% halo effect. However, the wood, in particular, for the Stradivarii came from forests that had suffered droughts and was quite a bit denser than expected for that species. That having been said, wood degrades. It doesn't matter if you put magic varnish on it or not. Wood ages nicely in instruments for about 10 years. Then it's good for about 50 years. After 50 it starts noticably degrading, and the more heavily used the more it degrades. You will note that the Strads are long past the point that the wood is "good". People who play violins can tell. However, nobody involved in a "blind" test is going to slag violins that might be Strads--that would be bad for their reputation. Ironically, those Strads aren't completely original, either. They have been repaired to various degrees over the years, given more modern bridges, etc. So, we get a Ship of Theseus argument. As for modern handmade violins, the top ones are easily as good or even better than Strads. Strads may have been "magic" in the 1700s and 1800s, but we have really good control of things, better measurement, better analysis, better materials, etc. in the modern era. Luthierie in the 2000s is still art, but it's got a lot of science backing it up nowadays.

ramenbytes 3y ago

Indeed. I've heard that certain acoustic guitar makers are starting do certain types of scientific analyses of the wood they buy for the guitar body to ascertain how it will behave, I wonder if there is any work being done in the violin community to quantify the behavior of their instruments. If anyone knows of an equivalent of Zollner's Physics of the Electric Guitar[0] for violins please share! [0] https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/ https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/

john61 3y ago
The guitar maker I know knocks on the raw soundboard and listens very close to the response. He can tell how it will sound in a guitar and how the guitar has to be built to support this particular soundboard and wanted characteristics of the guitar. (There are a lot of variables) He explained the difference in the knock response, and as musicians we could hear the difference too.
- bluGill 3y ago
  It is called tap tuning and violin makers have been doing it for years. We don't know what Stradivarius, but nobody would be surprised by the claim that he was doing the same thing when making his violins. There is however a lot of debate in the luthier community on if it actually matters. Some claim it does and spend a lot of time on it, and have even setup fancy test fixtures to show patterns with different frequencies. However some claim it makes no difference and [I'm not sure what]. Both produce great instruments.

lolinder 3y ago

I suspect the focus on the visuals has more to do with the journalist's perspective as a layperson than the focus of the luthiers. My wife is a professional cellist and cello teacher, and she absolutely can tell the difference between a handmade instrument and a factory-made one. I've watched her appraise dozens of student cellos, and even though I can't hear the difference myself, I know how good an instrument is from the look on her face a few seconds into playing it. She never looks at the label or pays attention to the appearance of the body, the sound is the only thing that sets the good instruments apart for her. As I understand it, the difference between a crafted instrument and a factory one lies in the way the creator adapts (or doesn't) to the natural grain of the wood. A handmade instrument by an expert can't be beaten by a factory process because each piece of wood resonates differently and those differences must be accounted for to get a good sound.

livueta 3y ago
I was only ever a mediocre cellist (Suzuki book 7) but my sister was legit good and won a scholarship-ish thing to borrow some hundreds-of-years-old cello worth six figures. When playing it, even I could immediately tell the difference between it and my mass-produced Yamaha.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  > When playing it, even I could immediately tell the difference between it and my mass-produced Yamaha. I would imagine the CNC milled Yamahas to have much better quality control. It's the same in horology, "hand crafted" Swiss/German watches are valued over precision cut assembly line Seikos even though the Seiko complications are magnitudes more accurate and reliable than the Swiss ones.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    I could see differences due to materials. Wood is not uniform product, so picking the right section for right part might do something minor. Metal is metal and we get very exact and uniform properties with modern manufacturing. Now maybe we could question why have we not come up with anything better for these wood instruments? Like some mixture of plastic?

radarsat1 3y ago

There's actually lots of research on that topic, if you search for "Stradivarius blind listening" on Google Scholar you'll find some. Can't recommend a specific article unfortunately, but it's an interesting topic. My current understanding is that there is no perceptual difference that has been proven, and even later models are blindly judged to be better.

UberFly 3y ago

They are like an 18th century Japanese katana. The masters were unparalleled at creating revered quality. They would be my first choice in collecting. Tho, if my life depended on it, I'd take a blade crafted with modern technology.

porkbeer 3y ago
But you would be (half) wrong. Modern metalurgy trounces 10000 times folded, quenched in ancient fire. Modern shaping techiques are better and we can achieve a lighter, more flexible and tough blade. The issue is we dont. There is no reason to. Nobody is trusting their life to a katana today. so very few quality ones are made anymore. they are now more a symbol than a tool.

bsder 3y ago

> What is it about Stradivari or other hand made instruments that make them so coveted, are desirable sonic characteristics measurable and traceable to manufacturing techniques? Or is it all just halo effect? It 90% halo effect. However, the wood, in particular, for the Stradivarii came from forests that had suffered droughts and was quite a bit denser than expected for that species. That having been said, wood degrades. It doesn't matter if you put magic varnish on it or not. Wood ages nicely in instruments for about 10 years. Then it's good for about 50 years. After 50 it starts noticably degrading, and the more heavily used the more it degrades. You will note that the Strads are long past the point that the wood is "good". People who play violins can tell. However, nobody involved in a "blind" test is going to slag violins that might be Strads--that would be bad for their reputation. Ironically, those Strads aren't completely original, either. They have been repaired to various degrees over the years, given more modern bridges, etc. So, we get a Ship of Theseus argument. As for modern handmade violins, the top ones are easily as good or even better than Strads. Strads may have been "magic" in the 1700s and 1800s, but we have really good control of things, better measurement, better analysis, better materials, etc. in the modern era. Luthierie in the 2000s is still art, but it's got a lot of science backing it up nowadays.