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Absolutely. My local paper's environmental columnist recently rented an EV and chronicled the experience. [1] There were so many compromises involved, largely r

Absolutely. My local paper's environmental columnist recently rented an EV and chronicled the experience. [1] There were so many compromises involved, largely related to charging/range. For example, she had to walk in the cold (Maine) from her hotel to her car, which she was charging overnight elsewhere. She also had to skip part of her trip due to lack of range. The columnist concludes the sacrifices were worth it, given her dedication to environmentalism. The vast, vast majority of people would not choose her experience to be a little greener. 1: https://www.almanacnews.com/blogs/a-new-shade-of-green/2024/03/24/i-rented-an-ev-in-maine-for-a-few-days-in-march-howd-it-go/ https://www.almanacnews.com/blogs/a-new-shade-of-green/2024/...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
DFHippie 3y ago
My brother lives in Maine and has two electric cars. I have one and travel in Maine a few times a year. It's a particularly bad state for charging. I'm not sure why that is.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  I imagine the temperature doesn't help. Compared to CA (where the columnist is from), the average temp is probably 20° colder, which could cut 15% off the range.
  - samatman 3y ago
    This is unlikely to be the central factor, given that Norway, one of the few inhabited places which is colder than Maine, has the highest rate of electric car ownership in the world. That's in spite of the range issue, and is due to the Norwegian government carrot-and-sticking heavily towards electric. Maine has no such incentives, and is sparsely populated, which doesn't play to the strengths of electric cars.
    - DFHippie 3y ago
      Maine is sparsely populated, but most of its population is concentrated in a narrow strip along the coast. Actually, this is probably true of Norway as well.
    - joncrocks 3y ago
      Also worth noting that in Norway, they will often have cars with engine block heaters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater), with associated plug points in parking spaces/places. Makes it much easier if there's already infrastructure.
    - gnicholas 3y ago
      Norway has huge financial incentives for buying EVs, including exemption from VAT and registration fees. This has added up to billions of USD in subsidies, [1] and is why there are so many EVs in Norway. I'd be very surprised if their neighbors, who have similar climate but fewer incentives, see the same rate of adoption. Norway shows that you can have EVs in a place that is very cold if you shovel cash at buyers. It doesn't prove that weather wouldn't be a central factor in a place like Maine. 1: https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-evolving-incentives-for-zero-emission-vehicles-22d2485b/ https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-...
  - DFHippie 3y ago
    Yeah, the cold hurts the range, but not all that much. The central (I was going to say "main") thing is that Maine is a charging desert. Bar Harbor, the destination of most of the out-of-state Teslas, has almost nowhere to charge. I went to a hotel once which promised to have 4 level-2 Tesla chargers. All of the spots were occupied by ICE trucks. I went in to point out this problem to the clerk. She shrugged her shoulders and said, "they're probably our customers." Apparently the chargers were just there to lure in suckers. "Yes, we have chargers, but good luck using one. They tend to be parked in by ICE pickup trucks. We're helpless to do anything about this." I failed to check to see whether the trucks had Maine plates. They didn't look like typical customers of this hotel. Around Portland things are a bit better. And new stations are being put it. It's just behind neighboring states.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Probably some combination of: - It's a cold state in winter and there's at least the perception that you don't want an EV in places with cold winters. (I see few enough Teslas in the wild in exurban Boston.) - It's a relatively poor state. - I imagine pickups and the like are disproportionately represented. - It's big and sparsely populated as you say. A friend of mine who lives in Boston but owns a house on a bunch of land in northern Vermont finally got a Tesla when he convinced himself there was sufficient buffer for weekly trips between the two places.
skrtskrt 3y ago
one of the primary complaints I've seen is the Tesla apps being inaccurate about charger availability - like 4 out of 5 chargers available here! And you show up and they're actually all taken with a huge line of people waiting.
- nickv 3y ago
  So weird (and I'm not a Tesla apologist at all) but I have never in 5 years seen this happen - and I've driven across America 4 times in a Model 3. In fact, mid drive Tesla will auto-reroute you to a supercharger station with more open slots if the one you're going to gets busy while on the drive. The UI is extremely accurate (like I can see open station numbers increment when a car pulls out). Are you sure you're not hearing complaints about non-Tesla chargers?
  - skrtskrt 3y ago
    yes this is specifically the Tesla charging stations in LA
jonasdegendt 3y ago
It's all about charger coverage. As a large group we rented 2 Volkswagen ID.4's in Norway over the Christmas holidays (think -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range) and it was never a limiting factor. Anywhere we went we could top up, from the grocery store down to the cabin that was quite out in the boonies, never had to fight for a charger spot either.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long? (ev exp is ltd bc my cars are 30y-60y)
  - jonasdegendt 3y ago
    > Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long? No, the battery simply isn't able to hold as much energy because the chemical process that makes it work "slows" down (my basic understanding of electrons, someone feel free to correct me).
  - c0nfused 3y ago
    At cold temps you lose range a few different ways: First heat in an EV isn't free, this is usually where it gets you. People get in go "oh man its cold" and crank up the heat and there goes range. When you see one of the "this person ran out of power waiting in line at the Tesla charger in winter time" pictures this is how they did it. Second battery efficiency goes down. Finally, the battery usually is constantly doing the regen breaking thing but in cold weather it doesn't to save pack wear until you get the pack warm again
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Shouldn't a couple regen braking events be capable of dumping a boatload of heat?
      - 3y ago
_ea1k 3y ago
Articles like that make it all sound so complicated and hard! TBH, the experience of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed on the way. The one clear problem that is highlighted in that article is that hotel, or more generally destination, charging makes a huge difference. People think it is all about getting there, but it really is the being there that can be tricky. Rental cars magnify this problem, which is why it was so strange that Hertz expanded the fleet so rapidly. Scaling the same move over 3 years would have had very different results(*). (*) Maybe other than maintenance costs. There were odd rental effects in that from the stories that I've heard.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed Do you think that's because it's far easier to charge your car at home while you are sleeping? And that renters who lack this convenience or face difficulty achieving it might be put out by the experience during a possibly expensive and rare vacation?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    I'm sure it happens. We get EV 'reviews' from time to time in some of the ev forums and reddits. I've noticed a common tendency to get this experience, then extrapolate it to the rest of the experiences as well. It isn't always a representative sample, though I understand why it happens. But that's not why I mentioned Tesla. I mentioned them because there's so much weird industry caused complexity that they avoid. Need to charge the car you've just rented? Just find a supercharger and plug in. Not ideal necessarily, but at least it isn't hard. Got a non-Tesla and need to use EVGo or EA? If you're lucky the card reader isn't broken. Then there's a decent chance it times out while communicating, because the order of events isn't intuitive for first timers. Cancelling the session at this point sometimes gets tricky too. Oh, and all of this is assuming the unit itself wasn't broken. If the card reader was broken, now you are downloading an app, tapping in card details, trying to figure out which stall to active, etc. And finally, you find out that the Bolt might require you to hold the cord just right for it to activate. EA used to have a whole video just on this detail. :facepalm It can be a really terrible experience.
smcin 3y ago
> For example, she had to walk in the cold (Maine) from her hotel to her car... Equivalently, she chose a hotel without chargers, or without enough chargers. How much extra time and money would it have taken to find a hotel with/near chargers? Which travel search engines/ OTAs/ directories allow you to find hotels with L1/L2 chargers? (Do they list number and ratio of chargers/rooms?) Just like how most of these allow you to search on free parking, breakfast, wifi, disabled access etc., I see this as a feature that will become common then standard. EDIT: to the down-voter, this is on-topic and substantive comment. Per my other comment here, the onus is on the rental company to actively incentivize behavior modification in first-time-EV-renting customers, help them plan their trip, not just to merrily slam them for fees. Assuming Hertz want loyalty and repeat business (if not, then this is a wider issue with them, not with EVs).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

DFHippie 3y ago

My brother lives in Maine and has two electric cars. I have one and travel in Maine a few times a year. It's a particularly bad state for charging. I'm not sure why that is.

gnicholas 3y ago
I imagine the temperature doesn't help. Compared to CA (where the columnist is from), the average temp is probably 20° colder, which could cut 15% off the range.
- samatman 3y ago
  This is unlikely to be the central factor, given that Norway, one of the few inhabited places which is colder than Maine, has the highest rate of electric car ownership in the world. That's in spite of the range issue, and is due to the Norwegian government carrot-and-sticking heavily towards electric. Maine has no such incentives, and is sparsely populated, which doesn't play to the strengths of electric cars.
  - DFHippie 3y ago
    Maine is sparsely populated, but most of its population is concentrated in a narrow strip along the coast. Actually, this is probably true of Norway as well.
  - joncrocks 3y ago
    Also worth noting that in Norway, they will often have cars with engine block heaters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater), with associated plug points in parking spaces/places. Makes it much easier if there's already infrastructure.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Norway has huge financial incentives for buying EVs, including exemption from VAT and registration fees. This has added up to billions of USD in subsidies, [1] and is why there are so many EVs in Norway. I'd be very surprised if their neighbors, who have similar climate but fewer incentives, see the same rate of adoption. Norway shows that you can have EVs in a place that is very cold if you shovel cash at buyers. It doesn't prove that weather wouldn't be a central factor in a place like Maine. 1: https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-evolving-incentives-for-zero-emission-vehicles-22d2485b/ https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-...
- DFHippie 3y ago
  Yeah, the cold hurts the range, but not all that much. The central (I was going to say "main") thing is that Maine is a charging desert. Bar Harbor, the destination of most of the out-of-state Teslas, has almost nowhere to charge. I went to a hotel once which promised to have 4 level-2 Tesla chargers. All of the spots were occupied by ICE trucks. I went in to point out this problem to the clerk. She shrugged her shoulders and said, "they're probably our customers." Apparently the chargers were just there to lure in suckers. "Yes, we have chargers, but good luck using one. They tend to be parked in by ICE pickup trucks. We're helpless to do anything about this." I failed to check to see whether the trucks had Maine plates. They didn't look like typical customers of this hotel. Around Portland things are a bit better. And new stations are being put it. It's just behind neighboring states.
ghaff 3y ago
Probably some combination of: - It's a cold state in winter and there's at least the perception that you don't want an EV in places with cold winters. (I see few enough Teslas in the wild in exurban Boston.) - It's a relatively poor state. - I imagine pickups and the like are disproportionately represented. - It's big and sparsely populated as you say. A friend of mine who lives in Boston but owns a house on a bunch of land in northern Vermont finally got a Tesla when he convinced himself there was sufficient buffer for weekly trips between the two places.

skrtskrt 3y ago

one of the primary complaints I've seen is the Tesla apps being inaccurate about charger availability - like 4 out of 5 chargers available here! And you show up and they're actually all taken with a huge line of people waiting.

nickv 3y ago
So weird (and I'm not a Tesla apologist at all) but I have never in 5 years seen this happen - and I've driven across America 4 times in a Model 3. In fact, mid drive Tesla will auto-reroute you to a supercharger station with more open slots if the one you're going to gets busy while on the drive. The UI is extremely accurate (like I can see open station numbers increment when a car pulls out). Are you sure you're not hearing complaints about non-Tesla chargers?
- skrtskrt 3y ago
  yes this is specifically the Tesla charging stations in LA

jonasdegendt 3y ago

It's all about charger coverage. As a large group we rented 2 Volkswagen ID.4's in Norway over the Christmas holidays (think -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range) and it was never a limiting factor. Anywhere we went we could top up, from the grocery store down to the cabin that was quite out in the boonies, never had to fight for a charger spot either.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long? (ev exp is ltd bc my cars are 30y-60y)
- jonasdegendt 3y ago
  > Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long? No, the battery simply isn't able to hold as much energy because the chemical process that makes it work "slows" down (my basic understanding of electrons, someone feel free to correct me).
- c0nfused 3y ago
  At cold temps you lose range a few different ways: First heat in an EV isn't free, this is usually where it gets you. People get in go "oh man its cold" and crank up the heat and there goes range. When you see one of the "this person ran out of power waiting in line at the Tesla charger in winter time" pictures this is how they did it. Second battery efficiency goes down. Finally, the battery usually is constantly doing the regen breaking thing but in cold weather it doesn't to save pack wear until you get the pack warm again
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Shouldn't a couple regen braking events be capable of dumping a boatload of heat?
    - 3y ago

_ea1k 3y ago

Articles like that make it all sound so complicated and hard! TBH, the experience of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed on the way. The one clear problem that is highlighted in that article is that hotel, or more generally destination, charging makes a huge difference. People think it is all about getting there, but it really is the being there that can be tricky. Rental cars magnify this problem, which is why it was so strange that Hertz expanded the fleet so rapidly. Scaling the same move over 3 years would have had very different results(*). (*) Maybe other than maintenance costs. There were odd rental effects in that from the stories that I've heard.

akira2501 3y ago
> of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed Do you think that's because it's far easier to charge your car at home while you are sleeping? And that renters who lack this convenience or face difficulty achieving it might be put out by the experience during a possibly expensive and rare vacation?
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I'm sure it happens. We get EV 'reviews' from time to time in some of the ev forums and reddits. I've noticed a common tendency to get this experience, then extrapolate it to the rest of the experiences as well. It isn't always a representative sample, though I understand why it happens. But that's not why I mentioned Tesla. I mentioned them because there's so much weird industry caused complexity that they avoid. Need to charge the car you've just rented? Just find a supercharger and plug in. Not ideal necessarily, but at least it isn't hard. Got a non-Tesla and need to use EVGo or EA? If you're lucky the card reader isn't broken. Then there's a decent chance it times out while communicating, because the order of events isn't intuitive for first timers. Cancelling the session at this point sometimes gets tricky too. Oh, and all of this is assuming the unit itself wasn't broken. If the card reader was broken, now you are downloading an app, tapping in card details, trying to figure out which stall to active, etc. And finally, you find out that the Bolt might require you to hold the cord just right for it to activate. EA used to have a whole video just on this detail. :facepalm It can be a really terrible experience.

smcin 3y ago

> For example, she had to walk in the cold (Maine) from her hotel to her car... Equivalently, she chose a hotel without chargers, or without enough chargers. How much extra time and money would it have taken to find a hotel with/near chargers? Which travel search engines/ OTAs/ directories allow you to find hotels with L1/L2 chargers? (Do they list number and ratio of chargers/rooms?) Just like how most of these allow you to search on free parking, breakfast, wifi, disabled access etc., I see this as a feature that will become common then standard. EDIT: to the down-voter, this is on-topic and substantive comment. Per my other comment here, the onus is on the rental company to actively incentivize behavior modification in first-time-EV-renting customers, help them plan their trip, not just to merrily slam them for fees. Assuming Hertz want loyalty and repeat business (if not, then this is a wider issue with them, not with EVs).