7 ms·

The girl is sad because we don’t know the name of the people/artists on which the music and her voice is modelled.

by isodev 3y ago

titzer 3y ago
In the great web tradition of harvesting the vast body of other people's work in the large[1] and shoving it through huge amounts of computation to wring out a nickel's worth of value that will eventually manifest in some good-paying SWE jobs, a rich executive class, and a whole lot of shareholder value and inevitably mutate in another goddamn ad-serving platform. [1] Ha, the poor millions of dumb minions who put their work on the web thinking it might be fun for others or garner themselves a small following, they didn't check the terms of the EULA!
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  I wonder if this won't drive a resurgence of demand for live performances - as recording becomes more and more artificial, live performance will mean more. (Or maybe, as a live performer, I'm just wishful thinking here...)
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Generally speaking, people create internet content so that it is shared. All of the creators and subjects of meme formats... Should they receive royalty every time you post some inane mashup?
  - titzer 3y ago
    This is not that. We're not talking about some inane mashup, but a wholesale digestion of every creative thing any person ever did by a monster computer cluster whose scale dwarfs imagination, which then promptly uses it to maximize "engagement" to gather eyeballs to feed them advertising. It's profoundly messed up.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      The cost of that computer cluster must also dwarf imagination. I don't begrudge crypto miners either.
      - titzer 3y ago
        I wasn't aware of a right to recoup the costs of any bad idea, which seems to be what you're implying here. Because computers, therefore profit? Huh?
        paulddraper 3y ago
        The earlier comment was "vast work", so the size of effort is somehow relevant to the discussion.
        titzer 3y ago
        It isn't. If a serial killer spent a week digging mass graves by hand, they don't get years taken off their sentence. You don't get points just for working hard or spending money, particularly when it cheapens or just appropriates other people's work.
    - newswasboring 3y ago
      > which then promptly uses it to maximize "engagement" to gather eyeballs to feed them advertising. This is the real problem, right? People don't dislike generative AI, they dislike the attention economy. Yet I see more disgust towards AI than the company policies which suck. I don't understand why.
      - titzer 3y ago
        Oh, haha, yeah. I guess I'm the opposite--I actually like AI more than the attention economy! At least one of them is not actively trying to drain my brainpower and skill set and get my to buy stuff and do stuff I wouldn't otherwise buy or do.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    People also differentiate heavily on the basis of scale and profit. Artists are often fine with people sharing their posts and may even tolerate someone asking for permission to make printouts or whatever else for their circle of friends, but will expect some sort of royalty if you're asking to be able to sell prints of their artwork on a store. Hell, even with viral videos it's relatively common that normal people can share away while entertainment companies and influencers are expected to pay for a license. With memes it isn't clear exactly who made the first template, and the creation of them doesn't revolve around specific people in the same way, nor are they meaningfully tied to profits. When creators post their content online to be shared, they do it with the focus being on reaching individuals, not for it to be sucked up by soulless companies to extract all value without the intention of giving back.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      > With memes it isn't clear exactly who made the first template. The Office, The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, Django Unchained, Game of Thrones, etc These works have identifiable creators.
      - titzer 3y ago
        The conversation is quickly devolving into a vacuum of ignorance where things like royalties, fair use policies, revenue-sharing agreements, parodies, sampling, etc, have apparently never been thought about. We're not talking about any of those things. We're talking about wholesale digestion of the entirety of human knowledge by automated means, which is now not just theoretically possible, but routine.
      - dotnet00 3y ago
        Those aren't meme formats in terms of what is typically meant by meme.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  These kinds of discussions always leaves me wondering if people consider how actual humans learn their craft, constantly studying and mimicking others. Inspiration is to use existing experiences however mixed together, while originality comes from an input or an experience that others have yet to use. "Write a sad song about the MIT license" is certainly such new input, and if I was commissioned to write the song it would be based on inspiration (i.e., "use training on") music I have heard or studied. And yes, none of the musicians I have listened to or have studied will benefit from the endless money fountain I'd acquire from composing such song.
  - notahacker 3y ago
    Even the most derivative of singer songwriters tend to use their own voices rather than a weighted average of the voices of other singers in their genre...
    - bobajeff 3y ago
      Is that why so many people sound so much like Adele or some other popular artist?
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      Using the skills they presumably developed listening to and copying other singers and studying music, with an instrument built from roughly the same instructions as everyone else. That a person can't sound like the weighted average is human limitation (although with modern pop people do get quite close!), not because new singers aren't trying to. That of course adds variation that we appreciate, but doesn't change the underlying similarity in how acquired skill is mimicry of those who acquired it before us - with very rare exceptions.
      - notahacker 3y ago
        No, sounding like the genre-weighted average of Spotify simply isn't what singers try to do. They haven't listened to that much music, they have actual preferences, they have natural qualities to their voice which they're complimented on or asked to mask, and they're trying to hit notes based on their aural perception of harmony and related theoretical principles not based on the waveforms of other songs involving singer songwriters. The fact that they literally couldn't do what NNs do even if they wanted to also seems quite relevant to the fact that they don't do what NNs do. What next, are we going to argue that what programmers creating new programs are really trying to do is generate a prompt-weighted average of the bytecode of every program they've ever downloaded, and all that business analysis and functional spec and use of high level programming languages and expressed preferences for coding standards is irrelevant?
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  > eventually manifest in some good-paying SWE jobs Unless Devin has his way.
SilasX 3y ago
Just like we're all sad because we don't know the names of the people whose work or interactions influenced Stephen King's writing.
- Conasg 3y ago
  I wonder who was the first to claim this was plagiarism; ironically, everyone else seems to have mindlessly plagiarised their belief
  - ronsor 3y ago
    95% of beliefs are shamelessly plagiarized from someone else.
- fho 3y ago
  The funny thing is that most creatives are quite open about their influences.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    They wouldn't be if every named influence wanted a 5% cut of all future projects.
- bena 3y ago
  AI isn't influenced. It doesn't have restrictions. It doesn't have to work within confines. AI can always remember the word it wants to use. It always can hit the note it intends. And it can hit every note. Etc. It uses the corpus of training data and mashes it into a new form. Stephen King won't be able to remember every word of every story he's ever read. And if he wants to make something "Lovecraftian", it'll be what Stephen King thinks is Lovecraftian. And there will be something to that. Some bit he believes is more or less important than other people And those bits are what makes Stephen King, Stephen King. Everyone has had access to the same material King read. Access to the same tools he used to create. Everyone had the chance to effectively be Stephen King. But there is just one. Because there is some unique bit of observation or recall or combination of such things that is unique to King. And from what I've seen so far, these LLMs can't do that. There is a missing element of pure imagination.
mirekrusin 3y ago
She's sad because she knows the license will be changed to business non compete one in a year.
throwaway74432 3y ago
We don't know the names of all the people on which the style and content of your comment is modelled either.
- kube-system 3y ago
  That's correct, but they are (probably) human, which is pivotal to the application of copyright law.
non-chalad 3y ago
Is it Hatsune Miku? Twitter is glitching out again, so I can't hear.
- schroeding 3y ago
  No, it's a synthetic voice from suno.ai, sounds like a (very sad) American singer-songwriter.

The girl is sad because we don’t know the name of the people/artists on which the music and her voice is modelled.

by isodev 3y ago

The girl is sad because we don’t know the name of the people/artists on which the music and her voice is modelled.

In the great web tradition of harvesting the vast body of other people's work in the large[1] and shoving it through huge amounts of computation to wring out a nickel's worth of value that will eventually manifest in some good-paying SWE jobs, a rich executive class, and a whole lot of shareholder value and inevitably mutate in another goddamn ad-serving platform. [1] Ha, the poor millions of dumb minions who put their work on the web thinking it might be fun for others or garner themselves a small following, they didn't check the terms of the EULA!

commandlinefan 3y ago
I wonder if this won't drive a resurgence of demand for live performances - as recording becomes more and more artificial, live performance will mean more. (Or maybe, as a live performer, I'm just wishful thinking here...)
paulddraper 3y ago
Generally speaking, people create internet content so that it is shared. All of the creators and subjects of meme formats... Should they receive royalty every time you post some inane mashup?
- titzer 3y ago
  This is not that. We're not talking about some inane mashup, but a wholesale digestion of every creative thing any person ever did by a monster computer cluster whose scale dwarfs imagination, which then promptly uses it to maximize "engagement" to gather eyeballs to feed them advertising. It's profoundly messed up.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    The cost of that computer cluster must also dwarf imagination. I don't begrudge crypto miners either.
    - titzer 3y ago
      I wasn't aware of a right to recoup the costs of any bad idea, which seems to be what you're implying here. Because computers, therefore profit? Huh?
      - paulddraper 3y ago
        The earlier comment was "vast work", so the size of effort is somehow relevant to the discussion.
        titzer 3y ago
        It isn't. If a serial killer spent a week digging mass graves by hand, they don't get years taken off their sentence. You don't get points just for working hard or spending money, particularly when it cheapens or just appropriates other people's work.
  - newswasboring 3y ago
    > which then promptly uses it to maximize "engagement" to gather eyeballs to feed them advertising. This is the real problem, right? People don't dislike generative AI, they dislike the attention economy. Yet I see more disgust towards AI than the company policies which suck. I don't understand why.
    - titzer 3y ago
      Oh, haha, yeah. I guess I'm the opposite--I actually like AI more than the attention economy! At least one of them is not actively trying to drain my brainpower and skill set and get my to buy stuff and do stuff I wouldn't otherwise buy or do.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  People also differentiate heavily on the basis of scale and profit. Artists are often fine with people sharing their posts and may even tolerate someone asking for permission to make printouts or whatever else for their circle of friends, but will expect some sort of royalty if you're asking to be able to sell prints of their artwork on a store. Hell, even with viral videos it's relatively common that normal people can share away while entertainment companies and influencers are expected to pay for a license. With memes it isn't clear exactly who made the first template, and the creation of them doesn't revolve around specific people in the same way, nor are they meaningfully tied to profits. When creators post their content online to be shared, they do it with the focus being on reaching individuals, not for it to be sucked up by soulless companies to extract all value without the intention of giving back.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > With memes it isn't clear exactly who made the first template. The Office, The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, Django Unchained, Game of Thrones, etc These works have identifiable creators.
    - titzer 3y ago
      The conversation is quickly devolving into a vacuum of ignorance where things like royalties, fair use policies, revenue-sharing agreements, parodies, sampling, etc, have apparently never been thought about. We're not talking about any of those things. We're talking about wholesale digestion of the entirety of human knowledge by automated means, which is now not just theoretically possible, but routine.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Those aren't meme formats in terms of what is typically meant by meme.
arghwhat 3y ago
These kinds of discussions always leaves me wondering if people consider how actual humans learn their craft, constantly studying and mimicking others. Inspiration is to use existing experiences however mixed together, while originality comes from an input or an experience that others have yet to use. "Write a sad song about the MIT license" is certainly such new input, and if I was commissioned to write the song it would be based on inspiration (i.e., "use training on") music I have heard or studied. And yes, none of the musicians I have listened to or have studied will benefit from the endless money fountain I'd acquire from composing such song.
- notahacker 3y ago
  Even the most derivative of singer songwriters tend to use their own voices rather than a weighted average of the voices of other singers in their genre...
  - bobajeff 3y ago
    Is that why so many people sound so much like Adele or some other popular artist?
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    Using the skills they presumably developed listening to and copying other singers and studying music, with an instrument built from roughly the same instructions as everyone else. That a person can't sound like the weighted average is human limitation (although with modern pop people do get quite close!), not because new singers aren't trying to. That of course adds variation that we appreciate, but doesn't change the underlying similarity in how acquired skill is mimicry of those who acquired it before us - with very rare exceptions.
    - notahacker 3y ago
      No, sounding like the genre-weighted average of Spotify simply isn't what singers try to do. They haven't listened to that much music, they have actual preferences, they have natural qualities to their voice which they're complimented on or asked to mask, and they're trying to hit notes based on their aural perception of harmony and related theoretical principles not based on the waveforms of other songs involving singer songwriters. The fact that they literally couldn't do what NNs do even if they wanted to also seems quite relevant to the fact that they don't do what NNs do. What next, are we going to argue that what programmers creating new programs are really trying to do is generate a prompt-weighted average of the bytecode of every program they've ever downloaded, and all that business analysis and functional spec and use of high level programming languages and expressed preferences for coding standards is irrelevant?
UncleOxidant 3y ago
> eventually manifest in some good-paying SWE jobs Unless Devin has his way.

SilasX 3y ago

Just like we're all sad because we don't know the names of the people whose work or interactions influenced Stephen King's writing.

Conasg 3y ago
I wonder who was the first to claim this was plagiarism; ironically, everyone else seems to have mindlessly plagiarised their belief
- ronsor 3y ago
  95% of beliefs are shamelessly plagiarized from someone else.
fho 3y ago
The funny thing is that most creatives are quite open about their influences.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  They wouldn't be if every named influence wanted a 5% cut of all future projects.
bena 3y ago
AI isn't influenced. It doesn't have restrictions. It doesn't have to work within confines. AI can always remember the word it wants to use. It always can hit the note it intends. And it can hit every note. Etc. It uses the corpus of training data and mashes it into a new form. Stephen King won't be able to remember every word of every story he's ever read. And if he wants to make something "Lovecraftian", it'll be what Stephen King thinks is Lovecraftian. And there will be something to that. Some bit he believes is more or less important than other people And those bits are what makes Stephen King, Stephen King. Everyone has had access to the same material King read. Access to the same tools he used to create. Everyone had the chance to effectively be Stephen King. But there is just one. Because there is some unique bit of observation or recall or combination of such things that is unique to King. And from what I've seen so far, these LLMs can't do that. There is a missing element of pure imagination.

mirekrusin 3y ago

She's sad because she knows the license will be changed to business non compete one in a year.

throwaway74432 3y ago

We don't know the names of all the people on which the style and content of your comment is modelled either.

kube-system 3y ago
That's correct, but they are (probably) human, which is pivotal to the application of copyright law.

non-chalad 3y ago

Is it Hatsune Miku? Twitter is glitching out again, so I can't hear.

schroeding 3y ago
No, it's a synthetic voice from suno.ai, sounds like a (very sad) American singer-songwriter.