4 ms·

I use to say this whenever I see anything related to FPGA: the FPGA world needs it's equivalent to Arduino. Before the Arduino, the world of microcontrollers wa

I use to say this whenever I see anything related to FPGA: the FPGA world needs it's equivalent to Arduino. Before the Arduino, the world of microcontrollers was dominated by bad proprietary tools; the FPGA world suffers of the same illness today. We really need to fix this before FPGA's falls in the hands and hearts of any willing hobbyist.

0xcde4c3db 3y ago
People have been working on it for years, but it's a lot of work when the chip vendor isn't helping to make it happen. At this point it's more akin to building reverse-engineered GPU drivers like Panfrost and Nouveau than a platform like Arduino (where AVR was well-documented by Atmel and avr-gcc already existed).
- sitkack 3y ago
  The solution is to build our own FPGAs, fpgas are not more complex than any other ASIC, in fact more regular and simpler. There are multiple fpga fabric generators FABulous OpenFPGA PRGA Uranus All of which could lay down a fabric that could be programmed by OSS tools.
  - adapteva 3y ago
    Yes, that's a great idea, but none of the projects you mentioned are ready for production. Who will find the building of these products?
    - sitkack 3y ago
      :)
qiqitori 3y ago
Lattice Semiconductor's iCE40 sort of qualifies, no? (Maybe getting a little old now?) Cheap and fully supported by an open-source toolchain and really easy to use. (Unless a GUI is needed.)
- codebje 3y ago
  iCE40 was a good start, but boards based around that family are getting hard to find. For those who are building their own PCB and want an FPGA on it with minimal fuss, the iCE40HX1K comes in a TQFP-144 package and is still readily available from the usual retailers for such things. Nice for hobby PCB makers, but not a current-day solution for easy FPGA projects for software devs. IMO Sipeed Tang is the product most like Arduino for FPGAs: boards ready to program with a USB cable and a range of plug-in-and-go peripheral boards available. The Gowin IDE is free but not open, while the yosys+nextpnr open toolchain claims full support for the FPGAs on the Tang boards. LiteX makes speccing out an FPGA core much more approachable for someone from a software development background, too, so LiteX plus a Tang Nano 20k and you can do all sorts of awesome things without too much trouble.
  - MegaDeKay 3y ago
    > while the yosys+nextpnr open toolchain claims full support for the FPGAs on the Tang boards Citation needed. The GoWin FPGAs on these boards are still very much a work in progress. YRabbit is doing most of the reverse engineering on them, it seems, with the DSP blocks only implemented a couple weeks ago. https://twitter.com/YLRabbit/status/1768935258903503248 https://twitter.com/YLRabbit/status/1768935258903503248
    - codebje 3y ago
      https://github.com/YosysHQ/apicula https://github.com/YosysHQ/apicula Project Apicula says "currently supported boards are ... [list of mostly Tang boards]" without qualification. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it actually is qualified support, though. Do you think the actual support is low enough that one should avoid those boards for now?
      - MegaDeKay 3y ago
        It is definitely qualified support. Whether there is enough for you right now depends on your needs, plus the knowledge that the support will continue to mature as time goes on. A good indicator of what you can do with the open source tools right now is checking out this link [0] at Lushaylabs. It has a fantastic series of practical hands on and useful articles like making your own CPU and driving HUB75 panels. Plus "This series uses a completely open source toolchain which makes development open / fast and lightweight". There is also /r/GowinFPGA on Reddit. https://learn.lushaylabs.com/tang-nano-series/ https://learn.lushaylabs.com/tang-nano-series/
eyegor 3y ago
Closest I can think of, $70: https://nandland.com/the-go-board/ https://nandland.com/the-go-board/ The problem with FPGAs is they're inherently unfriendly to beginners. Thinking in HDL is a bit more difficult than a high level language like scratch or arduino c++. Plus the "compile times" are absurd so a beginner would probably lose patience.
- DrFalkyn 3y ago
  LabVIEW has had FPGA programming as block diagrams for a good 15 years now. Vivado has something similar. Programming FPGA as block diagrams is very natural, because you are essentially designing a circuit. So strictly speaking, you don't need to learn a HDL to do FPGA anymore
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - KallDrexx 3y ago
    Theres the open source Digital (https://github.com/hneemann/Digital https://github.com/hneemann/Digital) which can run simulations but then export Verilog. If you have an ICE40 based GPU then in theory you can then use open source tools (like apio) to get that onto your FPGA. I've seen some impressive fpga tasks being generated by that. I'm early in my learning of FPGA and have done nandgame and some other non-HDL circuit learnings. I have gone back and forth if I want to design my project via HDL or via something like Digital. There's not an easy pro/con either way. For example, everything I've read is that the verilog block diagram tools kinda create isn't behavior, which makes optimization by FPGA compilers hard, because it can't automatically infer optimal feature gate usage if you are giving transistor level HDL vs behavior HDL. Likewise, it's not totally clear if block diagramming tools can facilitate test bench behavior, which I think I want to prevent regressions.
Ticktok 3y ago
The (Upduino)[https://tinyvision.ai/products/upduino-v3-1 https://tinyvision.ai/products/upduino-v3-1] and the (pico-ice)[https://tinyvision.ai/products/pico-ice https://tinyvision.ai/products/pico-ice] try to meet that solution to me. Both cheap, easy to use fpga boards that are completely compatible with the opensource toolchain.
dailykoder 3y ago
That's what I used to believe and it's probably true, but I think it will not really happen. You just don't need FPGAs for most things. Especially if you just like to tinker around. I mean we have Microcontrollers running at 600MHz+. That's usually fast enough to get things sorted in software. I do have hell of a lot fun designing my own CPUs and other hardware on FPGAs, but I've been doing this for a couple of years now and whenever I talk to someone who hasn't done any development in that direction yet, I often have to remind myself that hardware development is just a completely different mindset. Yes, copy pasting a few logic gates into vhdl is easy, but I don't know how you would go on from that if you just want to have fun. Getting something done in hardware can be really frustrating sometimes. Maybe all the "new-age HDLs" might be a solution to this - i have to admit i haven't really tried them out yet.
- brokenmachine 3y ago
  I'm a tinkerer and I'd like to play with HDMI but no microcontroller I know of can work with that.
- RantyDave 3y ago
  > we have Microcontrollers running at 600MHz+ The RP2040 has little tiny processors dedicated to bit banging. I think at this point the only thing you need FPGA's for is mega bandwidth stuff.
Ccecil 3y ago
From what I remember a few projects attempted this. Papillio [1] is one I remember in particular but that is partly because I backed the kickstarter for the Papillio Duo. Still have it and never had any time to really sit down and do stuff with it. I also worked with a company that made a few of the "wings" for it early on. [1] https://papilio.cc/ https://papilio.cc/
bogantech 3y ago
I lack imagination, what would the beginner do/create with a simple to use FPGA toolchain? If it's just open tools you need then yosys is a thing.
rcxdude 3y ago
Before you can have an arduino you need a gcc. Arduino itself was just a user-friendly wrapper over the existing work of making an open-source cross compiler for the platform.
jodoherty 3y ago
Arduino is a nice, but it's still built on the shoulders of tools like GCC, isn't it? I never owned a computer in the 90s, but my impression was that Cygnus[1] did a lot of work porting GCC and improving it for use in a variety of platforms, including embedded targets. They arguably helped pull GCC into mainstream usage, to the point of almost permanently forking it [2]. Those first 20 years of GCC development were prerequisites for something like Arduino to emerge in the mid-2000s. I'm just not sure we have the equivalent of GCC yet when it comes to synthesis tools. When it appears, it might be a good opportunity to create a consulting company and drive it forward while also making some money. The key pitch would be improving your ability to maintain and share designs across targets while not having to pay recurring licenses on your tools. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions [2]: https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/History https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/History

0xcde4c3db 3y ago

People have been working on it for years, but it's a lot of work when the chip vendor isn't helping to make it happen. At this point it's more akin to building reverse-engineered GPU drivers like Panfrost and Nouveau than a platform like Arduino (where AVR was well-documented by Atmel and avr-gcc already existed).

sitkack 3y ago
The solution is to build our own FPGAs, fpgas are not more complex than any other ASIC, in fact more regular and simpler. There are multiple fpga fabric generators FABulous OpenFPGA PRGA Uranus All of which could lay down a fabric that could be programmed by OSS tools.
- adapteva 3y ago
  Yes, that's a great idea, but none of the projects you mentioned are ready for production. Who will find the building of these products?
  - sitkack 3y ago
    :)

qiqitori 3y ago

Lattice Semiconductor's iCE40 sort of qualifies, no? (Maybe getting a little old now?) Cheap and fully supported by an open-source toolchain and really easy to use. (Unless a GUI is needed.)

codebje 3y ago
iCE40 was a good start, but boards based around that family are getting hard to find. For those who are building their own PCB and want an FPGA on it with minimal fuss, the iCE40HX1K comes in a TQFP-144 package and is still readily available from the usual retailers for such things. Nice for hobby PCB makers, but not a current-day solution for easy FPGA projects for software devs. IMO Sipeed Tang is the product most like Arduino for FPGAs: boards ready to program with a USB cable and a range of plug-in-and-go peripheral boards available. The Gowin IDE is free but not open, while the yosys+nextpnr open toolchain claims full support for the FPGAs on the Tang boards. LiteX makes speccing out an FPGA core much more approachable for someone from a software development background, too, so LiteX plus a Tang Nano 20k and you can do all sorts of awesome things without too much trouble.
- MegaDeKay 3y ago
  > while the yosys+nextpnr open toolchain claims full support for the FPGAs on the Tang boards Citation needed. The GoWin FPGAs on these boards are still very much a work in progress. YRabbit is doing most of the reverse engineering on them, it seems, with the DSP blocks only implemented a couple weeks ago. https://twitter.com/YLRabbit/status/1768935258903503248 https://twitter.com/YLRabbit/status/1768935258903503248
  - codebje 3y ago
    https://github.com/YosysHQ/apicula https://github.com/YosysHQ/apicula Project Apicula says "currently supported boards are ... [list of mostly Tang boards]" without qualification. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it actually is qualified support, though. Do you think the actual support is low enough that one should avoid those boards for now?
    - MegaDeKay 3y ago
      It is definitely qualified support. Whether there is enough for you right now depends on your needs, plus the knowledge that the support will continue to mature as time goes on. A good indicator of what you can do with the open source tools right now is checking out this link [0] at Lushaylabs. It has a fantastic series of practical hands on and useful articles like making your own CPU and driving HUB75 panels. Plus "This series uses a completely open source toolchain which makes development open / fast and lightweight". There is also /r/GowinFPGA on Reddit. https://learn.lushaylabs.com/tang-nano-series/ https://learn.lushaylabs.com/tang-nano-series/

eyegor 3y ago

Closest I can think of, $70: https://nandland.com/the-go-board/ https://nandland.com/the-go-board/ The problem with FPGAs is they're inherently unfriendly to beginners. Thinking in HDL is a bit more difficult than a high level language like scratch or arduino c++. Plus the "compile times" are absurd so a beginner would probably lose patience.

DrFalkyn 3y ago
LabVIEW has had FPGA programming as block diagrams for a good 15 years now. Vivado has something similar. Programming FPGA as block diagrams is very natural, because you are essentially designing a circuit. So strictly speaking, you don't need to learn a HDL to do FPGA anymore
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KallDrexx 3y ago
  Theres the open source Digital (https://github.com/hneemann/Digital https://github.com/hneemann/Digital) which can run simulations but then export Verilog. If you have an ICE40 based GPU then in theory you can then use open source tools (like apio) to get that onto your FPGA. I've seen some impressive fpga tasks being generated by that. I'm early in my learning of FPGA and have done nandgame and some other non-HDL circuit learnings. I have gone back and forth if I want to design my project via HDL or via something like Digital. There's not an easy pro/con either way. For example, everything I've read is that the verilog block diagram tools kinda create isn't behavior, which makes optimization by FPGA compilers hard, because it can't automatically infer optimal feature gate usage if you are giving transistor level HDL vs behavior HDL. Likewise, it's not totally clear if block diagramming tools can facilitate test bench behavior, which I think I want to prevent regressions.

Ticktok 3y ago

The (Upduino)[https://tinyvision.ai/products/upduino-v3-1 https://tinyvision.ai/products/upduino-v3-1] and the (pico-ice)[https://tinyvision.ai/products/pico-ice https://tinyvision.ai/products/pico-ice] try to meet that solution to me. Both cheap, easy to use fpga boards that are completely compatible with the opensource toolchain.

dailykoder 3y ago

That's what I used to believe and it's probably true, but I think it will not really happen. You just don't need FPGAs for most things. Especially if you just like to tinker around. I mean we have Microcontrollers running at 600MHz+. That's usually fast enough to get things sorted in software. I do have hell of a lot fun designing my own CPUs and other hardware on FPGAs, but I've been doing this for a couple of years now and whenever I talk to someone who hasn't done any development in that direction yet, I often have to remind myself that hardware development is just a completely different mindset. Yes, copy pasting a few logic gates into vhdl is easy, but I don't know how you would go on from that if you just want to have fun. Getting something done in hardware can be really frustrating sometimes. Maybe all the "new-age HDLs" might be a solution to this - i have to admit i haven't really tried them out yet.

brokenmachine 3y ago
I'm a tinkerer and I'd like to play with HDMI but no microcontroller I know of can work with that.
RantyDave 3y ago
> we have Microcontrollers running at 600MHz+ The RP2040 has little tiny processors dedicated to bit banging. I think at this point the only thing you need FPGA's for is mega bandwidth stuff.

Ccecil 3y ago

From what I remember a few projects attempted this. Papillio [1] is one I remember in particular but that is partly because I backed the kickstarter for the Papillio Duo. Still have it and never had any time to really sit down and do stuff with it. I also worked with a company that made a few of the "wings" for it early on. [1] https://papilio.cc/ https://papilio.cc/

bogantech 3y ago

I lack imagination, what would the beginner do/create with a simple to use FPGA toolchain? If it's just open tools you need then yosys is a thing.

rcxdude 3y ago

Before you can have an arduino you need a gcc. Arduino itself was just a user-friendly wrapper over the existing work of making an open-source cross compiler for the platform.

jodoherty 3y ago

Arduino is a nice, but it's still built on the shoulders of tools like GCC, isn't it? I never owned a computer in the 90s, but my impression was that Cygnus[1] did a lot of work porting GCC and improving it for use in a variety of platforms, including embedded targets. They arguably helped pull GCC into mainstream usage, to the point of almost permanently forking it [2]. Those first 20 years of GCC development were prerequisites for something like Arduino to emerge in the mid-2000s. I'm just not sure we have the equivalent of GCC yet when it comes to synthesis tools. When it appears, it might be a good opportunity to create a consulting company and drive it forward while also making some money. The key pitch would be improving your ability to maintain and share designs across targets while not having to pay recurring licenses on your tools. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions [2]: https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/History https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/History