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The Defenestrations of Prague (1419–1997)
- Redster 3y agoWent to Prague last year and saw the very windows that at least one defenstration used. It was so high up and the window sills and leaves were combined about 5ft wide. So it's not like they just knocked someone through glass. They had to really push them off the ledge. Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe. If they really thought the guys were so evil, they should have tried them, not defenestrated them. They knew better.
- adamnemecek 3y ago> Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in Europe. Their grievances were justified, religious freedoms were being curtailed.
- Redster 3y agoGrievances, yes. Actions, no.
- adamnemecek 3y agoStrong disagree.
- Redster 3y agoI see in your bio that you live in or are from Prague. Since you and I see it differently, I would sincerely like to read more up on this event and the history leading up to the 30 years war. If you have anything that you usually recommend, I would gladly take that recommendation.
- tmoravec 3y agoFor the terrors that were going on? Many other nations did way worse things for way less.
- Redster 3y agoOh sure. The way I see it, I just don't buy into "other people murdering for lesser reasons makes my murder ok." I think they had systems of due process, knew due process was important, and decided to yeet people anyway. But yes, I realize people are a product of their times, etc. etc. And I don't think this is a controversial position within Czechia, from what I encountered?
- adamnemecek 3y agoDue process? Who do you think the people were?
- marcosdumay 3y agoWhen somebody in power decides you deserve to die, anything you do against them is justified.
- panick21_ 3y agoThe cathlic government was literally going in and doing ethnic and religious cleansing and basically was willing to systematically kill anybody that would follow the party line.
- bandrami 3y agoIf it was the 1618 one (that's the one you can see from the courtyard), they wrestled him out the window and then beat his hands with their scabbards as he hung on to the sill for dear life. Fortunately he landed in a pile of horse manure and suffered only minor injuries.
- Redster 3y agoYikes. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah and it's not like the guys inside would've seen the pile of manure. It was not "ye joke".
- lolinder 3y agoFWIW, the horse manure story was probably invented as a reaction to the Catholic explanation that they were saved by divine providence. The whole event is so steeped in religious propaganda from both sides that I don't think we can conclusively say what happened except that both did in fact survive.
- bandrami 3y agoVery true. What gets even weirder (I'm kind of a 30 years war nerd) was how dynastic concerns always ended up confusing the confessional tensions, so that you had German protestant houses fighting for the Emperor to improve their position vs. the Palatinate, and Catholic France allying with Calvinist Sweden to expand both of their influence in northern Germany.
- usrusr 3y agoEven the pope rooting for the protestant side despite his nominal allegiance, due to Habsburg encroaching on Italy from both Spain and Austria. At least according to Schiller, who might have enjoyed pointing out Catholic inconsistencies a little too much.
- bandrami 3y agoWedgewood and Wilson (Wilson's 30 years war book is absolutely amazing, if you haven't read it) agree, though they both spend an entire chapter warning you that Schiller is excellent literature and absolutely irresponsible history.
- 082349872349872 3y agoI'm sure we can all come up with twenty-first century examples of people who knew better revealing preferences for —instead of Themis— Nemesis.
- lolinder 3y agoMy understanding of the 1618 defenestration is that war was essentially inevitable by that point. The Holy Roman Empire had always been fragile—more of a loose alliance of princedoms than a proper kingdom or empire—and yet less than one year into his reign Ferdinand II started rolling back the strong religious protections that a large number of his vassals had begun to take for granted. There was no way that Ferdinand's approach to ruling the quarrelsome and religiously diverse German states wouldn't have led to war, even if these specific hotheads had kept their cool in that specific building on that specific day.
- Redster 3y agoYes, I think that your take is correct.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sakjur 3y agoThey did try them. That was why they threw them out the window. I’m not sure a more level headed trial of the catholics in Prague would’ve prevented the war for long. That particular power struggle could’ve easily boiled over for any reason.
- dekhn 3y agoFor some reason "defenestration" sounds like disemboweling to me, but every time I mention this to german speakers they also point out that "fenster" means "window"
- gmueckl 3y agoI think the common root here is the Latin word "fenestra". There is also the French word "fenêtre".
- wk_end 3y agoThere's something intrinsically funny about that word. I think part of it is that it sounds like of like "masturbation", and part of it is that it's so unusually specific - why do we need a word for throwing someone out a window?
- dekhn 3y agoExactly!
- tmoravec 3y ago> why do we need a word for throwing someone out a window? Well, "defenestration" is a sort of inflexion of a common word (in Latin or German, which was a common language in Prague in 1618). Wikipedia has quite a few examples, so having a specific word might be useful in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration
- 2devnull 3y agoI think the answer about why it’s so specific is if you just say you threw someone out of a window people might assume it was only one story high and not lethal. Defenestration tells you that it was a high window, and often implies the ejection of the owner or a legitimate occupant. Similar to shock vs electrocution.
- jaza 3y agoEven if (this is a challenge for the average English speaker like myself) you maintain in your conscious mind "fenestra = window", I think it's still so funny, because it sounds like you're removing the window from the person (a la decapitation).
- inglor_cz 3y agoWhen I registered on Reddit, I chose a username DefenestrationPraha, because I thought at that time that no one in the Anglosphere would be aware of those obscure pastimes of our ancestors. Little did I know that defenestrations of Prague are one of the few things Czech that the Internet really cares about.
- Redster 3y agoThat's very funny. It's like the time that I was in a pub in Cambridge and the gentleman* next to me said, "Y'know, the US and the UK, they go way back. The US used to be a colony of the UK actually." and I laughed, like, "Yes, and we built our entire national identity off of ending our relationship." He was dumbfounded. He was surprised that I even knew details about it. Which makes me laugh just typing this because of how thoroughly ingrained that information is to many Americans. *Who, to be fair, had actually been educated at the "other place". (I joke as someone who did not go to college.)
- Nashooo 3y agoHowever, not many seem to remember New York being a Dutch colony. It's where we get the names Harlem and Brooklyn from among others.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- LAC-Tech 3y agoThere's something very, very energising to me about a mob of people physically dealing with corrupt rulers. A sort of pure expression of democracy.
- metabagel 3y agoIn Russia, the corrupt ruler defenestrates you.
- panick21_ 3y agoIt didn't end great for the people in Czechia either.
- type0 3y agothat's not the point, the point is that spirit of both slavic people is completely different Moscovia was shaped by the rules established during the terror of Mongol invasion, we see the effects to this day
- int_19h 3y agoIt's hard to say if the Grand Duchy of Muscovy was shaped more by Mongol politics or by Byzantian ones, to be honest, but they certainly imitated Constantinople (or how they perceived it, anyway) more so than Sarai.
- lupire 3y agoSeems more like anarchy.
- 48864w6ui 3y agoAt least ochlocracy
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- paul_mark 3y ago[flagged]
- mongol 3y agoSo what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague are the ones I have heard about. I remember some movie scenes also, Axel Foley being defenestrated comes to mind. But was the word invented to describe the Prague events ?
- philwelch 3y agoBasketball fans might remember the time Charles Barkley threw a man through a plate glass window: https://archive.is/yZra5 https://archive.is/yZra5
- pndy 3y ago> So what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague are the ones I have heard about. All the "window accidents" in Russia involving people who angered Dobby of Kremlin could be counted in, I believe. Polish Wikipedia mentions a defenestration case [1] during urban revolt in Wrocław (back then Vratislav as it was under Czech crown rule) that took place between 18-22 July of 1418, so a year before the Prague's [1] - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestracja_wroc%C5%82awska https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestracja_wroc%C5%82awska
- 48864w6ui 3y agoI doubt it: there's a castle less than 10 km from me which had a former owner defenestrated during medieval times (when who was left was more important, in property disputes, than who was right)
- rhelz 3y agoLet’s not forget the enfenistration of Bag End, when Gandalf discovered Sam spying on him and Frodo, and then reached out the window and pulled him in.
- ggm 3y agoIf you visit Pražský Hrad (Prague Castle) the scene of the third defenestration, the window is remarkably small. It's not a giant room, the glazed tile heater is dominant. Only one or two of the paintings seem to capture the spirit of the place.
- jonatron 3y agoThere is the BFRC, the British Fenestration Rating Council. So if fenestration is to do with installing windows, you'd think defenestration is to do with removing windows, but it isn't.
- DrNosferatu 3y ago“Defenestration” is my favorite word in the whole wide world <3