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Botswana threatens to deport 20k elephants to Germany
- more_corn 3y agoThat’s a fantastic idea. Can any country implement an import ban and receive the same offer?
- manquer 3y agoThe phrase “white elephant” is a thing for a reason. Elephants are incredibly expensive to maintain just one of the them let alone thousands.
- almostnormal 3y agoPart of the "offer" is that they must live their own lives freely in nature. I guess that implies that there's no maintenance cost for them. Cost to maintain nature on the other hand...
- 14 3y agoExcept they were killing people and ruining crops so the cost of lost life and food supplies I guess.
- pvaldes 3y agoThe same old tale "Too much wolves, people is not safe!" so they treat with violence unless are allowed to kill them. A year later "wildboars invasion! toddlers in danger" so they require to be hunted (by them). Then is a chain of "too much foxes", that lead to "rabbits destroyed our food", and then is "mice alert!", and then is rats, and then "this asphalt has a plague of fire ants, why we need to suffer so much?"... Is an endless dismantling spiral of bullshit, and is very profitable for a few. Botswana has "too much investors" ravaging nature, and elephants have ivory that other countries still crave.
- marcusverus 3y agoThose horrible settlers, unwilling to sacrifice their children to the majestic creatures of the forest! Utter bullshit! I for one think a few dozen kids getting their throats ripped out each year would be a small price to pay to bring the wolves back.
- pvaldes 3y agoYep, this is exactly the alienated level of that discourse. Any relationship with reason, logic, biological knowledge or reality is gone. I can predict your dismay when eventually realize that dogs kill much more people than wolves.
- manquer 3y agoI cannot comment for Africa , but having lived in parts of India where elephants both wild and domesticated are prevalent there is a real human wild life conflict . You will not truly understand the pressures on both wildlife and people unless you live in a populous location . The people living close to wildlife are already marginalized and disenfranchised and when conservation does not account for their livelihoods it does not work. There is not much ivory or trade in India, elephants are revered in religion and strongly protected by the government federally and locally, the friction still exists between farmers and wild life. To quote the Botswana minister it is easy to sit in [city] and comment on the nature of their conservation, go there and live their lives and then make sweeping statements.
- arp242 3y agoOver a dozen people die every year due to wild elephants. You can't just ignore that. That also makes it completely incomparable to the situations you're talking about. The quote from the Botswanian president is very applicable to your comment: “It is very easy to sit in Berlin and have an opinion about our affairs in Botswana. We are paying the price for preserving these animals for the world.”
- abdullahkhalids 3y agoHas the elephant population per unit area increased a lot in Botswana? If yes, why? Were there natural predators before that no longer exist?
- ffgjgf1 3y agoBotswana’s government website seems to imply that many elephants migrated there from the north because they were much safer from poachers there than in Namibia, Angola etc. or rather that they used to seasonally migrate across the border but stopped because of the poachers. Now the risk is much higher but younger elephants got too used to living in Botswana. To be fair this doesn’t sound entirely inconceivable and in theory those elephants probably could be considered to be refugees.. Also I guess humans were hunting elephants for thousands of years keeping the population “in check” * https://www.botswana.co.za/Botswana_Wildlife_Behaviour-travel/elephants-of-botswana.html#:~:text=Why%20is%20the%20Elephant%20Population,civil%20unrest%20in%20neighbouring%20countries https://www.botswana.co.za/Botswana_Wildlife_Behaviour-trave....
- wkat4242 3y ago> Also I guess humans were hunting elephants for thousands of years keeping the population “in check Did they though? I don't think elephant meat is eaten and ivory isn't really a super useful substance to African tribes afaik, it's more desired in the west.
- aksss 3y agoYes, it was eaten and is eaten. It's red meat. It's calories. Of course humans ate/eat it. The oldest evidence is 1.8m years old. According to wiki, in 2007 it seemed to be selling for like $5-6/lb in Africa.
- 7734128 3y agoHumans hunted mammoths to extinction. Probably similar, if leaner.
- arp242 3y ago
- vinaypai 3y agoIt's kind of pathetic to make silly threats that everyone knows they have zero ability to carry out.
- wkat4242 3y agoOne word: Hannibal
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> pathetic to make silly threats The embedded threat is reducing anti-poaching enforcement and penalties, or exploring re-legalising the ivory trade with China.
- vinaypai 3y agoIf they had a ready alternative market they could just do that instead of flipping out over Germany decided what can and can't be imported into their own country.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> If they had a ready alternative market they could just do that Botswana is flipping out over Germany threatening their trophy hunting business. Presumably if they go full poaching/ivory, they write off that business for good. They’re trying to defend the status quo.
- aksss 3y agoSend them on a barge across the Med, and German-funded rescue boats will drop them off in Italy or other coasts in Europe. Tattoo them with "To Germany with Love" and a few might find their way there. Hannibal brought elephants over the Alps, could be a great time for reenactment filming.
- vinaypai 3y agoBotswana is a landlocked country.
- rhaps0dy 3y ago> Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk was unavailable for comment. Cough.
- 77pt77 3y agoThey also wanted to send a few thousand to Hyde Park in London. I'd like to see that!
- Y_Y 3y ago"I don't want anyone to shoot them, but I also don't want to otherwise think about them or take any other action." This might be hypocritical and lame, but I think it's the prevailing feeling among the voting population. Maybe the German government could balance it's trophy ban with some in-place elephant sponsorship. Also I can't imagine why you'd expect to get an interesting comment from PETA.
- kazinator 3y agoWell, I don't want anyone to shoot you. But I don't know who you are and don't want to think about you after this comment or take any other action. Would you prefer that I don't care whether someone shoots you?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- endofreach 3y ago> But I don't know who you are and don't want to think about you after this comment or take any other action Well, while i don't agree with the original comment, both of you are missing the critical part of this in your argumentation. It's missing the part where the potentially killed subject is actively harmful to others/humans in its habitat. That makes all the difference.
- Y_Y 3y agoOn what grounds do you presume that I'm not actively harmful to the humans in my habitat? While I appreciate your point here, I don't consider it to be decisive. I think that if the elephants were considerate of their neighbors they would still be a burden on the Batswana. Ultimately there will be competition for land and water and the opportunity cost of not letting rich foreigners shoot them. Botswana is a good place for the elephants, and the government seems relatively well disposed towards them. Ideally that would be enough, but I think economically it has to be worth their while, otherwise the resources will be put to a more "productive" use.
- 3y ago
- sickofparadox 3y agoI have no clue why at this point in time major outlets give PETA the time of day, especially when considering the fact that they kill exponentially more animals than any other non-farming organization in the United States. A morally repugnant organization of hypocrites. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=295a4113-b3be-42df-8585-665f496cc913 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=295a4113-b3be...
- huytersd 3y agoIt’s kind of mind blowing to me. If it’s true why can’t they use their money to set up sanctuaries for these animals. I understand a lot of, for example, dogs given up are dangerous beasts but can’t they just let them roam free on some 1000 acres with a fence. They seem to have a lot of money, a 100 acres in a temperate climate could be as little as $50k.
- zeroCalories 3y agoIt's a pure utilitarian calculation. These animals are better off dead than alive. There isn't the natural habitat, or resources to care for them. Better to end their suffering quickly and painlessly.
- MathMonkeyMan 3y agoIf we could ask the dog "death now, or try your luck on the street?" I assume it would choose the latter. Being a street dog is a hard life, but it's not all suffering. We kill the dogs because letting them roam free is an inconvenience to us. It's not an easy problem to solve, hence all the urging to neuter and spay.
- ASalazarMX 3y agoIf they're going to end up in the street, why not let bad owners dump there directly and save effort? What could go wrong with letting loose a few dozens of stray dogs each week, right?
- 3y ago
- daghamm 3y ago"You are given en elephant. You cannot kill it or sell it. What do you do?" I recal last week on HN everybody were sure this was a stupid question with no connection to anything remotely practical...
- addandsubtract 3y agoTurns out, you can just say "No". Once again, teaching us that real life does not follow any rules we're imposed in school.
- orwin 3y agoFrom what i remember, Botswana have two giant natural parks, a strong government and isn't as destabilized by the DRC (and let's be honest, the metal found in southern DRC) as its northern neighbours, so i can see that their elephant population could reach level so high they have to kill some. Canadians/USians do the same with wolves (and/or deers in the Appalachians), we do the same with hogs, and all those animals are ultimately less damaging than elephants, so it reeks of useless activism. Botswana should have threatened to do that, because it's ultimately a ridiculous threat, but to be fair, i would rather have rich people go kill designated animals and pay through the nose for it to curb population, rather than letting poachers and illegal safaris do the same. At least it move money from people who do not need it, to people who do.
- arp242 3y agoI thought this was quite a good article on the topic: "Who Wants to Shoot an Elephant?" – https://www.gq.com/story/what-its-like-to-hunt-an-elephant https://www.gq.com/story/what-its-like-to-hunt-an-elephant While I understand the need for wildlife conservation, all of this sits quite uneasy with me. What kind of person thinks it's just amazing to shoot such an intelligent being as an elephant? Then again, is it really worth making a huge fuss about a relatively small amount of animals who get to live most of their lives in freedom, when there are billions of animals every year being raised in far worse circumstances? It seems to me that's a far more pressing matter. Also, according to [1], "elephants roaming the country have killed 36 people over the past two years", which complicate things even further. Elephants are beautiful animals, but they're also wild animals. And quite large ones at that. You'd probably lose a fight with an elephant – badly. [1]: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/five-things-know-about-botswanas-decision-lift-ban-hunting-elephants-180972281/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/five-things-know-a...
- MathMonkeyMan 3y agoI wonder about the logistics of moving so many elephants such a distance, even if you do it gradually. Surely Botswana has better ways to spend the money.
- owyn 3y agoHannibal invaded Italy with 37 elephants and got a pretty good result. /s But it does seem kind of ugly of us as a species to preserve them as a species for hunting.
- random9749832 3y agoMore racism from western journalism. The headline intentionally makes them sound like 'just another' backwards non-western country when no one is actually threatening such a thing. This and the NK headline the other day sum up the attitude of the west versus the rest of the world, but their world is now in decline and we see them for what they are.
- wink 3y agoIf they ran on gas or Diesel it would be easier.