5 ms·

Watching the empire crumble in real time is an extremely challenging place to be. Seeing our government say, "yes, there's obvious risk to human health, and it'

by yareal 3y ago

Watching the empire crumble in real time is an extremely challenging place to be. Seeing our government say, "yes, there's obvious risk to human health, and it's a totally preventable risk, but we hate the epa more than we care about good outcomes" is tragic. Combined with the criminal attitude from the company manufacturing these things. "We know this is harmful, but we've been doing it for over a decade so we can't stop now."

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vundercind 3y ago
[flagged]
- yareal 3y ago
  We haven't had a good president in my lifetime. (40+ years) My original post isn't a condemnation of a party, it's a condemnation of both parties working together to line their pockets while the ship sinks.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    Oh, total agreement. Even Obama was pretty damn bad (gonna end those pointless, expensive wars that’re still killing people? No? Just… gonna keep doing that for some reason? Huh, weird choice, but ok. Could we at least close Guantanamo like you said you would? Also no? Ok well I guess at least we helped destabilize the Maghreb for no reason, great, love that, oh and look you’ve intervened in Syria juuuuust enough to keep it going but not enough to end it the way we’d prefer, causing untold misery, how very hopeful!) Carter’s the last one who might have been good, but was dealt a shit hand and then had dirty tricks at America and Americans’ expense played against him by his reelection opponent, so, hard to say if he’d have turned it around and become effective. Wasn’t effective with the years he did have, though.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Obama tried to close Guantanamo but couldn’t get Congress to go along with it. Presidents in the USA don’t have total power, it’s not like China where Xi gets an almost one hundred percent vote on all his plans. A lot of the things going on that America gets involved with just have bad and worse solutions, if you get the job you either have to make those bad decisions (because the other ones are worse) or just go isolationist (the world still burns, it’s just not the USA’s fault anymore).
      - vundercind 3y ago
        There’s zero chance he couldn’t have shut it down. Military installation. C in C. He could have found a way and it wouldn’t even have taken much effort. He just wanted the political cover of consent from congress and chickened out when he couldn’t get it.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        From what I remember, Congress refused to let the prisoners be kept on the mainland, so ya, Obama could shut it down but then what? We’ve already released or sent to prisons in other countries, what we can, but there are some weird edge cases (30) that need congressional authorization to deal with. In many cases the USA can’t even send these people back to their home countries (eg Uighurs and China), so the only option would be to let them settle in the USA as refugees. A lot of people are really against that.
        vundercind 3y ago
        I tend to agree with analyses that factor in the relative weakness of the US executive on some fronts, but in this case it’s a situation AFAI recall entirely created by the executive. Novel and probably very fucking illegal classification for the prisoners? An executive invention. Decision to put them where they are now? Executive. Operational control of that facility? It’s military, so, executive. Decision not to move forward with (if nothing else) military trials in all cases, and just hold some of them indefinitely? Executive. How could it not be possible for the executive to undo a situation that was 100% its creation? Fact is, there was no actual will to follow through, and probably never was an intention to try very hard to begin with. [edit] it wouldn’t bother me much except 1) he said he’d do it, already well aware of the challenges and kinds of push-back he’d see, then didn’t do more than try one weak-sauce approach that let him pass the buck and shrug; cowardly as hell, and 2) it was probably the least messy part of the Bush-era disaster to untangle, as far as military and international affairs go (not forgetting the economic crash), and he couldn’t even do that much. If he’d made good progress on the other, worse parts, I’d probably entirely excuse this failure, but he didn’t.
zmgsabst 3y ago
Do you really not understand why process and rules matter in government? The whole point of a system of rights and courts is that when the government wants to end your decades old business through administrative authority, they at least have to write a report on why, specifically — and they can’t claim that this is “new” to skip that step. That is what this ruling says. Upholding laws and protection against government authority is also a good outcome.
- wredue 3y ago
  They didn’t claim that it was new. They claimed it should be tried as new as they only became aware of the illegal part of the process recently, and I agree with that. Being able to hide your bullshit for a few years until it’s established being a way of avoiding a much harder process to win for you is bonkers. Allowing businesses to create known health risks by illegally operating and then saying “well it isn’t new NOW” is idiotic and a horrible outcome.
  - Teever 3y ago
    Isn't it crazy that the government can outlaw marijuana for decades start a 'war' against anyone who tries to consume it or produce/distribute it for business purposes, but it just can't seem to regulate this kind of shit? How come there can be green teams jackbooting grow rooms but there can't be a PFAS team jackbooting factories spewing known toxic substances into the environment?
    - krapp 3y ago
      The war on drugs - marijuana specifically - is a war against the black community, as was admitted by Nixon's domestic policy chief[0]. Meanwhile, DuPont, 3C and other companies spend multiple millions of dollars on lobbying, political donations and bribery to ensure favorable laws and lax regulation. See the decision from the court in TFA - the concern for business overrides concern for public health. It isn't crazy, it's just America. White supremacy and capitalism will always be the priority. [0]https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-drugs-designed-to-criminalize-black-people/ https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-drugs-designed-to-criminal... [1]https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2023/11/07/pfas-lobbying/ https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2023/11/07/pfas-lobbying/

by yareal 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vundercind 3y ago

[flagged]

yareal 3y ago
We haven't had a good president in my lifetime. (40+ years) My original post isn't a condemnation of a party, it's a condemnation of both parties working together to line their pockets while the ship sinks.
- vundercind 3y ago
  Oh, total agreement. Even Obama was pretty damn bad (gonna end those pointless, expensive wars that’re still killing people? No? Just… gonna keep doing that for some reason? Huh, weird choice, but ok. Could we at least close Guantanamo like you said you would? Also no? Ok well I guess at least we helped destabilize the Maghreb for no reason, great, love that, oh and look you’ve intervened in Syria juuuuust enough to keep it going but not enough to end it the way we’d prefer, causing untold misery, how very hopeful!) Carter’s the last one who might have been good, but was dealt a shit hand and then had dirty tricks at America and Americans’ expense played against him by his reelection opponent, so, hard to say if he’d have turned it around and become effective. Wasn’t effective with the years he did have, though.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Obama tried to close Guantanamo but couldn’t get Congress to go along with it. Presidents in the USA don’t have total power, it’s not like China where Xi gets an almost one hundred percent vote on all his plans. A lot of the things going on that America gets involved with just have bad and worse solutions, if you get the job you either have to make those bad decisions (because the other ones are worse) or just go isolationist (the world still burns, it’s just not the USA’s fault anymore).
    - vundercind 3y ago
      There’s zero chance he couldn’t have shut it down. Military installation. C in C. He could have found a way and it wouldn’t even have taken much effort. He just wanted the political cover of consent from congress and chickened out when he couldn’t get it.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        From what I remember, Congress refused to let the prisoners be kept on the mainland, so ya, Obama could shut it down but then what? We’ve already released or sent to prisons in other countries, what we can, but there are some weird edge cases (30) that need congressional authorization to deal with. In many cases the USA can’t even send these people back to their home countries (eg Uighurs and China), so the only option would be to let them settle in the USA as refugees. A lot of people are really against that.
        vundercind 3y ago
        I tend to agree with analyses that factor in the relative weakness of the US executive on some fronts, but in this case it’s a situation AFAI recall entirely created by the executive. Novel and probably very fucking illegal classification for the prisoners? An executive invention. Decision to put them where they are now? Executive. Operational control of that facility? It’s military, so, executive. Decision not to move forward with (if nothing else) military trials in all cases, and just hold some of them indefinitely? Executive. How could it not be possible for the executive to undo a situation that was 100% its creation? Fact is, there was no actual will to follow through, and probably never was an intention to try very hard to begin with. [edit] it wouldn’t bother me much except 1) he said he’d do it, already well aware of the challenges and kinds of push-back he’d see, then didn’t do more than try one weak-sauce approach that let him pass the buck and shrug; cowardly as hell, and 2) it was probably the least messy part of the Bush-era disaster to untangle, as far as military and international affairs go (not forgetting the economic crash), and he couldn’t even do that much. If he’d made good progress on the other, worse parts, I’d probably entirely excuse this failure, but he didn’t.

zmgsabst 3y ago

Do you really not understand why process and rules matter in government? The whole point of a system of rights and courts is that when the government wants to end your decades old business through administrative authority, they at least have to write a report on why, specifically — and they can’t claim that this is “new” to skip that step. That is what this ruling says. Upholding laws and protection against government authority is also a good outcome.

wredue 3y ago
They didn’t claim that it was new. They claimed it should be tried as new as they only became aware of the illegal part of the process recently, and I agree with that. Being able to hide your bullshit for a few years until it’s established being a way of avoiding a much harder process to win for you is bonkers. Allowing businesses to create known health risks by illegally operating and then saying “well it isn’t new NOW” is idiotic and a horrible outcome.
- Teever 3y ago
  Isn't it crazy that the government can outlaw marijuana for decades start a 'war' against anyone who tries to consume it or produce/distribute it for business purposes, but it just can't seem to regulate this kind of shit? How come there can be green teams jackbooting grow rooms but there can't be a PFAS team jackbooting factories spewing known toxic substances into the environment?
  - krapp 3y ago
    The war on drugs - marijuana specifically - is a war against the black community, as was admitted by Nixon's domestic policy chief[0]. Meanwhile, DuPont, 3C and other companies spend multiple millions of dollars on lobbying, political donations and bribery to ensure favorable laws and lax regulation. See the decision from the court in TFA - the concern for business overrides concern for public health. It isn't crazy, it's just America. White supremacy and capitalism will always be the priority. [0]https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-drugs-designed-to-criminalize-black-people/ https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-drugs-designed-to-criminal... [1]https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2023/11/07/pfas-lobbying/ https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2023/11/07/pfas-lobbying/