7 ms·

Return-to-Office Mandates: How to Lose Your Best Performers

93 points by geox 3y ago

dd82 3y ago
Three things missing from this article: * Overhiring adjustment without paying severances or doing official layoffs * Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought. * Ego and power. Management loves in office, can't imagine anyone else not wanting to be face to face. Crack the whip, people respond and do what you say, so there's an ego boost edit * This article is assuming that management cares about their staff over their own personal priorities. Everyone is replaceable, and there's no reason for any loyalty, whether down or up the chain.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  These are huge factors. I work in an industry where a couple firms that are very well run, have large investments in tech/infra and also, were the hardest RTO pushers. A lot of also-rans that have made piddling investments in tech/infra are now following along and saying things like "well our competitors have RTO". It's doubly funny because they pay less well, and therefore could have instead used flexibility as a hiring incentive. Instead the offer is - we pay less, and make you come into the office just as much! It's like explicitly screening for second-best employees.
- ThrowawayR2 3y ago
  > "Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought." Having seen hordes chasing whatever the latest software industry fashion, fad, and get-rich-quick scheme is for a couple decades now, I'd say software developers are even more "highly unoriginal, and love to copy what others are doing without thought", dohohoho.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Spoiler alert! Nearly everyone is monkey-see monkey-do. The number of genuinely original ideas I've encountered during my 25+ year career can probably be counted on at most two hands. In engineering, it's kind of expected: You build off of others' research, implement using safe, known design patterns, stick with what works and is reliable. But in leadership it's poison. Too many companies spend all their time looking at their competitors for ideas of what to do next.
- sys_64738 3y ago
  > Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought. This is what I have noticed. Management says that GOOG and MSFT are doing it so it must be right. Follow the herd. Lemmings. It just reinforces to ICs that management is just totally incompetent and useless at their jobs. They steal a wage.
- EPWN3D 3y ago
  Yup -- the Valley has been around long enough to get infected by MBAs. Even executives who have an engineering background get their brains eaten by this b-school mindset, where every worker is a cog who falls into performance buckets. Once you internalize that outlook, of course the answer to every problem is more process, more structure, etc. Naturally the MBAs themselves are indispensable, irreplaceable, special snowflakes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ml-anon 3y ago
This is partly how OpenAI snagged many of DeepMind’s top LLM engineers in ‘21-‘22. DeepMind instituted far more draconian RTO than Google meanwhile a lot of DMers being from the US had gotten used to the flexibility of being able to spend extensive time with family back home.
- danielbln 3y ago
  I thought OpenAI is a huge stickler for in-office work?!
  - ml-anon 3y ago
    They are but the options were a) return to London for no good reason or b) remain in the Bay Area and also get paid 2-10x
benol 3y ago
I understand that some people prefer to work from home, but there seems to be a narrative that every single one good software engineer is in that camp, and I honestly don’t see where this belief came from… I very much miss the days where I could meet all the junior members of my team in the office and quickly sort out whatever was blocking them etc.
- fullshark 3y ago
  Yeah there are clearly tradeoffs, neither side's zealots seem willing to admit it though cause the stakes are so high so the conversation remains fundamentally dishonest.
  - 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
    The debate isn't really about whether home or office is better, it's about who should have the power to weigh and make decisions about those tradeoffs: employer vs. employee. I think most of the professional class are loath to think about it that way because it sounds suspiciously like the beginnings of a labor movement.
    - fullshark 3y ago
      There's definitely a lot of cowardice and fear underlying the capital class's current strategy of "remain in limbo until forced to move." Maybe it's fear of losing that crucial employee that keeps the light on, maybe it's fear of employees waking up to what exactly a job is and what's expected of them (compliance for 40-60 hours a week of their lives) and becoming demotivated. It certainly doesn't seem to be fear that allowing WFH means they will lose their competitive edge in their industry. Agree it's more about the capital/labor relationship potentially fraying. The labor movement LARPing you see every so often online I think is ridiculously premature. The labor movement at the turn of the century was ridiculously volatile and borne from a ton of unrest. It's a ways away.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  What prevents you from quickly unblocking people remotely? Genuine question; I keep hearing people saying similar things about junior team members, but I don't understand what the remote issue is with them in particular.
nimbius 3y ago
Sometimes on HN i see these articles about "return to office" and its a little confusing for me because I dont work in an office job, im a mechanic in a diesel repair shop that likes python and technology. Can anyone break down why these companies want/need people to come back to the office at all? as far as I know, and from everything ive seen, office workers can do this stuff anywhere (even in our shops waiting room.) meetings are all on zoom and VPN is a thing. Office workers dont "make" anything. i know that sounds rude but i cant think of another way to describe it...office workers "work" is all between their ears? I have to be in the shop, dressed in my PPE and work boots, and ready to fix stuff that actually exists. If i work from home, trucks dont get repaired because thats what i do. When some office tech worker logs in, everything they make is already in front of them...its everywhere and nowhere all at once. Just let them all work from home and be done with it. less road congestion means lower prices to ship stuff in the USA because trucks dont wait as long or waste as much fuel idling in gridlock. ambulance response times improve, carbon emissions go down...i mean the whole damn thing seems like a real no-brainer. The rule aught to be: If the heaviest thing you pick up in your workday is a coffee pot, then stay home. EDIT: so the "social" aspect isnt something i considered because ive never had a zoom that ever lasted more than 5 minutes (i had to talk to a doctor during covid i think.) Im sorry i didnt consider it before, but is work really a great place to do social stuff? as an example, my jobs loud and busy. typically im shouting at my coworkers or using a radio. at the end of the day we're all a little tired. sometimes there are tasks like millwrighting or crane work that cannot include a social aspect for safety reasons. but! twice a year we put down the air tools and meet up at a local park. our foreman is a decorated BBQ enthusiast, so he cooks up a mess of food to eat. His daughter is an 'aspiring' DJ so she picks the tunes and takes care of requests. We all sit around a rented out park shade and shoot the breeze over beers and bratwurst. its really great. Can/do office workers do that?
- exe34 3y ago
  Rich and powerful people invested in real estate. They can afford to run a campaign to keep those investments productive. That's all there is to it. Whenever you're confused about a situation, ask yourself who's going to make a profit from it, and it'll start to make sense.
- 3y ago
djaouen 3y ago
RTO mandates are just another manifestation of the antagonism that exists between the working and management classes. A smart manager would care what employees think of them and wish to make the employee’s job as streamlined as possible. Conclusion: Most managers are stupid. Until management’s image changes, I (personally) refuse to be promoted. :)
- sys_64738 3y ago
  A smart manager will also become an unemployed manager if they swim against the top-down management structure driving a high level decision. Most middle managers are yes men who exist for the only reason to execute the incontestable mandates from their highly compensated but totally incompetent superiors.
cornflake23 3y ago
The article focuses on Productivity as a sole cause for employers insisting on RTO. Yet, In some cases, we have CEOs on video record stating how remote work options help them hire and retain top talent. I feel there are other factors such as government tax write offs/subsidies related to RTOs - eg employees cause retail around offices to have lowered traffic… hence lower sales tax revenues. Why won’t employers just come out and say it? Your guess is as good as mine.
- Jcampuzano2 3y ago
  My companies CEO just a few years ago was talking about just this - how remote was good because we could now pull from a greater pool of talent and how he couldn't imagine going back to full-time in office. Complete about-take to now where the same person and all the execs can't help but mention at every opportunity how good being in-office is despite no company metric having improved since RTO, team morale and trust in execs at an all-time low, attrition higher than it basically has ever been and every company survey having outright negative results in every single metric.
  - sys_64738 3y ago
    It's the modern day 1984 in action in our lifetime. Gaslighting by execs who are dumb as two bricks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Stealthisbook 3y ago
I haven't seen it mentioned about RTO yet, but I'm sure some managers really just want to be able to conduct certain conversations and behaviors in person, completely off the record. Working for these people would range in badness from being victimized to potential accusations of conspiracy.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aaomidi 3y ago
WFH for office jobs could’ve been one of the best drivers of climate action and reduction in all sorts of pollutants, while also increasing general happiness in society. Of course we stopped doing it.
emrah 3y ago
For some reason, companies are perfectly fine with losing their "best performers" for any number of reasons, they won't bet an eye. I suppose it's the equivalent of "we don't negotiate with terrorists"
- mr90210 3y ago
  My theory is that having loads of money gives companies the leeway to simply not care about losing top performers. After all their bank account allows them to get other top performers. Obviously there are more nuances to this topic.
- x86x87 3y ago
  But they do negotiate all the time. For employees that are critical they do this all the time. For the regular employees? Nope
angarg12 3y ago
Besides all the points in the article, there is one more point that infuriates me about RTO mandates, and it's the double standards. Director level and above at my company have much more flexibility to WFH that regular employees. In fact several of them in my org do it. During an all hands, someone asked one of them about the RTO mandate, since they worked remotely. The director answered with a straight face that although he works remotely, he built the network that got him promoted to Director going to the office, and that's why you should go. If that level of patronizing doesn't make you lose faith in leadership, I don't know what does.
sircastor 3y ago
I’m to the point where I think we can’t afford me returning to office. My being present at home means that my wife has more flexibility in her work schedule, has allowed her to go back to school, and allows me to see my kid during daylight hours. And all the other stuff we always mention.
pizzaknife 3y ago
im hoping to round out this career i fell into 24 years ago in about 5.5yrs. I love my org and my colleagues but i value not sitting in traffic 1.5hrs cumulatively per day, being home when my progeny hops from the school bus, and walking my dogs around my wooded neighborhood (instead say, strolling solo around a lack luster business park), far more. Rto would force my hand to an early retirement from the general industry. simple as that (which would kinda suck - i wont be of retirement age yet)
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
Honestly one of the worst things over the years is feeling like more and more companies don't like their best performers. High performance people are difficult. High performers have high taste & drive. They believe in themselves & their capabilities. If there's dysfunction at the workplace or corporate politics or hiccups or whatever impeding things, the high performer is the most likely to not be easy, most likely to react. The people doing the best are often the people who don't particularly fit in well with the bell curve of your organization, with being managed down to. Letting good people go, alas, is often good protection for the corporate status quo, with other workers saddled with picking up the boulder someone else put down & figuring out a new how to trudge forwards. But the corp will be glad there's less vocal people, less standout behavior, more normalized predictable & routine life.

93 points by geox 3y ago

dd82 3y ago

Three things missing from this article: * Overhiring adjustment without paying severances or doing official layoffs * Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought. * Ego and power. Management loves in office, can't imagine anyone else not wanting to be face to face. Crack the whip, people respond and do what you say, so there's an ego boost edit * This article is assuming that management cares about their staff over their own personal priorities. Everyone is replaceable, and there's no reason for any loyalty, whether down or up the chain.

steveBK123 3y ago
These are huge factors. I work in an industry where a couple firms that are very well run, have large investments in tech/infra and also, were the hardest RTO pushers. A lot of also-rans that have made piddling investments in tech/infra are now following along and saying things like "well our competitors have RTO". It's doubly funny because they pay less well, and therefore could have instead used flexibility as a hiring incentive. Instead the offer is - we pay less, and make you come into the office just as much! It's like explicitly screening for second-best employees.
ThrowawayR2 3y ago
> "Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought." Having seen hordes chasing whatever the latest software industry fashion, fad, and get-rich-quick scheme is for a couple decades now, I'd say software developers are even more "highly unoriginal, and love to copy what others are doing without thought", dohohoho.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Spoiler alert! Nearly everyone is monkey-see monkey-do. The number of genuinely original ideas I've encountered during my 25+ year career can probably be counted on at most two hands. In engineering, it's kind of expected: You build off of others' research, implement using safe, known design patterns, stick with what works and is reliable. But in leadership it's poison. Too many companies spend all their time looking at their competitors for ideas of what to do next.
sys_64738 3y ago
> Monkey see, monkey do. Management is highly unoriginal, and loves to copy what others are doing without thought. This is what I have noticed. Management says that GOOG and MSFT are doing it so it must be right. Follow the herd. Lemmings. It just reinforces to ICs that management is just totally incompetent and useless at their jobs. They steal a wage.
EPWN3D 3y ago
Yup -- the Valley has been around long enough to get infected by MBAs. Even executives who have an engineering background get their brains eaten by this b-school mindset, where every worker is a cog who falls into performance buckets. Once you internalize that outlook, of course the answer to every problem is more process, more structure, etc. Naturally the MBAs themselves are indispensable, irreplaceable, special snowflakes.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ml-anon 3y ago

This is partly how OpenAI snagged many of DeepMind’s top LLM engineers in ‘21-‘22. DeepMind instituted far more draconian RTO than Google meanwhile a lot of DMers being from the US had gotten used to the flexibility of being able to spend extensive time with family back home.

danielbln 3y ago
I thought OpenAI is a huge stickler for in-office work?!
- ml-anon 3y ago
  They are but the options were a) return to London for no good reason or b) remain in the Bay Area and also get paid 2-10x

benol 3y ago

I understand that some people prefer to work from home, but there seems to be a narrative that every single one good software engineer is in that camp, and I honestly don’t see where this belief came from… I very much miss the days where I could meet all the junior members of my team in the office and quickly sort out whatever was blocking them etc.

fullshark 3y ago
Yeah there are clearly tradeoffs, neither side's zealots seem willing to admit it though cause the stakes are so high so the conversation remains fundamentally dishonest.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
  The debate isn't really about whether home or office is better, it's about who should have the power to weigh and make decisions about those tradeoffs: employer vs. employee. I think most of the professional class are loath to think about it that way because it sounds suspiciously like the beginnings of a labor movement.
  - fullshark 3y ago
    There's definitely a lot of cowardice and fear underlying the capital class's current strategy of "remain in limbo until forced to move." Maybe it's fear of losing that crucial employee that keeps the light on, maybe it's fear of employees waking up to what exactly a job is and what's expected of them (compliance for 40-60 hours a week of their lives) and becoming demotivated. It certainly doesn't seem to be fear that allowing WFH means they will lose their competitive edge in their industry. Agree it's more about the capital/labor relationship potentially fraying. The labor movement LARPing you see every so often online I think is ridiculously premature. The labor movement at the turn of the century was ridiculously volatile and borne from a ton of unrest. It's a ways away.
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
What prevents you from quickly unblocking people remotely? Genuine question; I keep hearing people saying similar things about junior team members, but I don't understand what the remote issue is with them in particular.

nimbius 3y ago

Sometimes on HN i see these articles about "return to office" and its a little confusing for me because I dont work in an office job, im a mechanic in a diesel repair shop that likes python and technology. Can anyone break down why these companies want/need people to come back to the office at all? as far as I know, and from everything ive seen, office workers can do this stuff anywhere (even in our shops waiting room.) meetings are all on zoom and VPN is a thing. Office workers dont "make" anything. i know that sounds rude but i cant think of another way to describe it...office workers "work" is all between their ears? I have to be in the shop, dressed in my PPE and work boots, and ready to fix stuff that actually exists. If i work from home, trucks dont get repaired because thats what i do. When some office tech worker logs in, everything they make is already in front of them...its everywhere and nowhere all at once. Just let them all work from home and be done with it. less road congestion means lower prices to ship stuff in the USA because trucks dont wait as long or waste as much fuel idling in gridlock. ambulance response times improve, carbon emissions go down...i mean the whole damn thing seems like a real no-brainer. The rule aught to be: If the heaviest thing you pick up in your workday is a coffee pot, then stay home. EDIT: so the "social" aspect isnt something i considered because ive never had a zoom that ever lasted more than 5 minutes (i had to talk to a doctor during covid i think.) Im sorry i didnt consider it before, but is work really a great place to do social stuff? as an example, my jobs loud and busy. typically im shouting at my coworkers or using a radio. at the end of the day we're all a little tired. sometimes there are tasks like millwrighting or crane work that cannot include a social aspect for safety reasons. but! twice a year we put down the air tools and meet up at a local park. our foreman is a decorated BBQ enthusiast, so he cooks up a mess of food to eat. His daughter is an 'aspiring' DJ so she picks the tunes and takes care of requests. We all sit around a rented out park shade and shoot the breeze over beers and bratwurst. its really great. Can/do office workers do that?

exe34 3y ago
Rich and powerful people invested in real estate. They can afford to run a campaign to keep those investments productive. That's all there is to it. Whenever you're confused about a situation, ask yourself who's going to make a profit from it, and it'll start to make sense.
3y ago

djaouen 3y ago

RTO mandates are just another manifestation of the antagonism that exists between the working and management classes. A smart manager would care what employees think of them and wish to make the employee’s job as streamlined as possible. Conclusion: Most managers are stupid. Until management’s image changes, I (personally) refuse to be promoted. :)

sys_64738 3y ago
A smart manager will also become an unemployed manager if they swim against the top-down management structure driving a high level decision. Most middle managers are yes men who exist for the only reason to execute the incontestable mandates from their highly compensated but totally incompetent superiors.

cornflake23 3y ago

The article focuses on Productivity as a sole cause for employers insisting on RTO. Yet, In some cases, we have CEOs on video record stating how remote work options help them hire and retain top talent. I feel there are other factors such as government tax write offs/subsidies related to RTOs - eg employees cause retail around offices to have lowered traffic… hence lower sales tax revenues. Why won’t employers just come out and say it? Your guess is as good as mine.

Jcampuzano2 3y ago
My companies CEO just a few years ago was talking about just this - how remote was good because we could now pull from a greater pool of talent and how he couldn't imagine going back to full-time in office. Complete about-take to now where the same person and all the execs can't help but mention at every opportunity how good being in-office is despite no company metric having improved since RTO, team morale and trust in execs at an all-time low, attrition higher than it basically has ever been and every company survey having outright negative results in every single metric.
- sys_64738 3y ago
  It's the modern day 1984 in action in our lifetime. Gaslighting by execs who are dumb as two bricks.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Stealthisbook 3y ago

I haven't seen it mentioned about RTO yet, but I'm sure some managers really just want to be able to conduct certain conversations and behaviors in person, completely off the record. Working for these people would range in badness from being victimized to potential accusations of conspiracy.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

aaomidi 3y ago

WFH for office jobs could’ve been one of the best drivers of climate action and reduction in all sorts of pollutants, while also increasing general happiness in society. Of course we stopped doing it.

emrah 3y ago

For some reason, companies are perfectly fine with losing their "best performers" for any number of reasons, they won't bet an eye. I suppose it's the equivalent of "we don't negotiate with terrorists"

mr90210 3y ago
My theory is that having loads of money gives companies the leeway to simply not care about losing top performers. After all their bank account allows them to get other top performers. Obviously there are more nuances to this topic.
x86x87 3y ago
But they do negotiate all the time. For employees that are critical they do this all the time. For the regular employees? Nope

angarg12 3y ago

Besides all the points in the article, there is one more point that infuriates me about RTO mandates, and it's the double standards. Director level and above at my company have much more flexibility to WFH that regular employees. In fact several of them in my org do it. During an all hands, someone asked one of them about the RTO mandate, since they worked remotely. The director answered with a straight face that although he works remotely, he built the network that got him promoted to Director going to the office, and that's why you should go. If that level of patronizing doesn't make you lose faith in leadership, I don't know what does.

sircastor 3y ago

I’m to the point where I think we can’t afford me returning to office. My being present at home means that my wife has more flexibility in her work schedule, has allowed her to go back to school, and allows me to see my kid during daylight hours. And all the other stuff we always mention.

pizzaknife 3y ago

im hoping to round out this career i fell into 24 years ago in about 5.5yrs. I love my org and my colleagues but i value not sitting in traffic 1.5hrs cumulatively per day, being home when my progeny hops from the school bus, and walking my dogs around my wooded neighborhood (instead say, strolling solo around a lack luster business park), far more. Rto would force my hand to an early retirement from the general industry. simple as that (which would kinda suck - i wont be of retirement age yet)

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

Honestly one of the worst things over the years is feeling like more and more companies don't like their best performers. High performance people are difficult. High performers have high taste & drive. They believe in themselves & their capabilities. If there's dysfunction at the workplace or corporate politics or hiccups or whatever impeding things, the high performer is the most likely to not be easy, most likely to react. The people doing the best are often the people who don't particularly fit in well with the bell curve of your organization, with being managed down to. Letting good people go, alas, is often good protection for the corporate status quo, with other workers saddled with picking up the boulder someone else put down & figuring out a new how to trudge forwards. But the corp will be glad there's less vocal people, less standout behavior, more normalized predictable & routine life.