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Can We Get Kids Off Smartphones?
- echelon 3y agohttps://archive.is/flHfq https://archive.is/flHfq https://web.archive.org/web/20240329182352/https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/can-we-get-kids-off-smartphones https://web.archive.org/web/20240329182352/https://www.newyo...
- CamperBob2 3y agoMaybe this moral panic will be the one that finally proves justified. Anyone taking bets?
- ajkjk 3y agoIt's not a moral panic? The problem isn't that they're evil it's that they're unhealthy. Lots of unhealthy things have been legislated against, to great effect.
- stephc_int13 3y agoLike alcohol or cannabis?
- tootie 3y agoSo is car exhaust. Probably an order of magnitude worse than phones.
- robertlagrant 3y agoThat's why we have emissions standards.
- tootie 3y agoEmissions standards per vehicle. Doesn't regulate how many miles get driven or how close to people.
- robertlagrant 3y agoFuel is taxed massively, which will reduce miles. How close to people is based on where the government builds the roads.
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoDo you have kids?
- kspacewalk2 3y agoI have kids. This is absolutely an overblown moral panic. I'm sure screen usage is a problem in extreme cases, just like TV watching was back when it was the moral panic du jour. For most kids, it's just not gonna have a huge effect, and at any rate I'm not convinced it'll be a net negative. Just like with so many other iterations of "X is ruining kids these days", if X fills a void it's probably better to focus on the void instead of X.
- doubled112 3y agoI'm with you here. It'll get worse as my kids get older, I suppose. With any luck I've taught them well enough by then. Didn't kids get in trouble for staying up to late reading books? Then it was TV. Then it was those damn video games making us all violent. Now it's smart phones? Like most things, don't abuse it and it's not a problem.
- tempsy 3y agonone of those other things were personalized with algorithms and psychological hooks designed to keep you in app for longer
- CamperBob2 3y agoYou don't play many video games, I take it.
- tempsy 3y agomodern video games are much more akin to social media than games 20-30 years ago, especially internet based ones. and many have a gambling element to it which makes it even worse in some aspects.
- QuantumG 3y agoHey, just because it looks, smells and is written exactly like every other moral panic ever, doesn't mean Concerned Mothers shouldn't go lobby for a law to Change Things for the next generation. Surely it won't lead to a generation that is praised for lower [drug use, comic book fascination, dungeons and dragons, sci-fi, etc, etc, etc] during the enforcement period who then suffer from massive relapse in later life, sometimes with disastrous- but more often just revolutionary- effects on the world, man.
- thewildginger 3y agoAlmost everyone in the age group in question is aware of these problems. It doesn't seem like a moral panic. It is a truly radical change in human life to have so much information in one place, so accessible, all the time. The newspaper changed society, the telegram changed business and war, but none systemically changed human behavior and thinking for every human it comes in contact with like a smart phone. It has changed childhood behavior, and parenting behavior as well. I really don't think this is a standard fear of something not understood, it's pretty clear it's affecting people and there should be a change.
- QuantumG 3y ago... and that's why the King's war against pamphleters is just! Kids are learning morse code at an alarming rate! Ban AI art, if not all art! No, okay. Just no.
- galdosdi 3y agoMy pet peeve: people saying every previous moral panic was unjustified because "after all, our generation turned out alright!" But your generation didn't. 70 years of television destroyed the minds of the boomer generation and is responsible for a lot of today's ills, as traditional culture was replaced with manufactured content pumped out for the sole purpose of engagement -- much like social media today, but weaker. We didn't survive TV, we just got used to and normalized it. Same thing is happening with smartphones and addictive feeds now. Some of the same people who say TV clearly didn't hurt us and is normal and OK, are the same who skewer the boomer generation. Don't they ever put two and two together? Of course not, that would take an attention span, which was reduced by TV and is now being finished off by TikTok
- rayiner 3y ago> But your generation didn't. 70 years of television destroyed the minds of the boomer generation and is responsible for a lot of today's ills, as traditional culture was replaced with manufactured content pumped out for the sole purpose of engagement -- much like social media today, but weaker. I think you can say that of a lot of the social experiments of the 20th century. Was teaching kids to “question authority” and “think for themselves” such a great idea? Maybe that’s why we got so many nutty anti-vaxxers and Alex Jones watching nuts.
- burcs 3y agoI hope so... On one hand I think what Florida did banning social media for kids is a great idea, on another hand I wish it didn't have to come with government overreach and parents could be responsible enough with their kids. I really feel for these younger generations.
- jimmygrapes 3y agoOne thing I'm really interested in is if/how a generation "banned" from anything finds a way to circumvent and/or improve upon things.
- add-sub-mul-div 3y agoOf course many will, and they'll have a head start in life being internet literate relative to those who don't find a way to get online, and the latter will also have to figure everything out abruptly when they hit a certain age. It's as stupid as trying to legislate that kissing can't happen until 18. It's not practically enforceable and trying creates unintended consequences.
- boplicity 3y ago> trying creates unintended consequences. Not trying creates the unintended consequences of a double suicide rate. Maybe it's worth trading one set of unintended consequences for another.
- Spivak 3y agoDouble the suicide rate compared to what? Look, I'm not saying social media isn't bad for you, just look at what HN has done to all of us, but in what universe is it possible to create an even vaguely controlled study on this? You can't measure across time, you can't measure across cultures, the confounding variables would ruin your results. And suicide is rare enough that you can't manufacture a control group on teens you get to not use social media. I've searched around and can't find the numbers that you're referencing. I can't even find a study that confidently asserts even correlation. It's just "the suicide rate went up in 2010's and we think it might be social media?" So to not only say that this is the problem but also this is the magnitude of it implies a level of confidence that is simply not supported by the data.
- FartinMowler 3y agoCan we get ourselves off smartphones?
- jwells89 3y agoMaybe, if they’re provided with interesting things to do and fun places to go. Those both started drying up several years before smartphones entered the picture, with suburban areas becoming particularly desert-like. It shouldn’t be a surprise that phones filled the gap.
- HatchedLake721 3y agoThis a worldwide phenomenon, nothing to do with American suburbs.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoIn the same sense that the epicenter has "nothing to do" with an earthquake yeah.
- mglz 3y agoHow so? In Europe there seems to be plenty of stuff fot kids to spend unstructured time.
- markus92 3y agoIn Europe, smartphones are a problem for kids too.
- dudul 3y agoAnd yet European kids use their phone as much as American ones.
- alexalx666 3y agoIm not sure there is a direct correlation but US urban areas were mostly planned for cars and in the EU urban enviroments inherited their layout from the times before cars so they are more sucseptable to urban planning that is more humane
- crotchfire 3y agoOh please with the karma-farming. Suburbs, for better or for worse, have been around for a long time. They cannot explain the massive decline in Generation Z's mental health compared to its predecessors. PS, next time try to link to housing costs -- that one gets better karma yield. Bonus points if you can somehow denigrate cryptocurrencies while you're at it.
- xkcd-sucks 3y agoA two pronged attack: One, adults encourage permissive smartphone use and also become authentically engaged in all the relevant online spaces. Two, adults just stop paying attention to kids at all in real life, no safety, liability, regulation, best practices, bureaucratic systems, nothing, unless informally as an urgent matter of certain loss of life and limb. End result is online stops being the place for kids to a brief respite from overbearing busybodies.
- tw04 3y agoThere's a pretty wide swath of normal in the middle of all of that. I hate to break it to you, but in the "good old days" - parents didn't "stop paying attention to kids at all". Half of the reason kids could run around "unsupervised" is because stay-at-home-mom was the norm for most women. Which meant if your kid was a mile away from home, you knew that someone else was still making sure they weren't getting into too much trouble and if they were you'd get a call letting you know what was going on. I remember more than one occasion where I knew there was a 50/50 chance I was going to be grounded before I walked in the door for dinner, despite "being unsupervised" for the entire day during the summer.
- stephc_int13 3y agoWe certainly can't. And should not try, as this would make it worse. Damage is already done, and it might worsen, but I am 100% confident that this generation will adapt, and the next ones. Meta cognition at the collective level is very powerful, even if slow. I have a similar opinion about conspiracy theories and the management of information and trust on the internet. The transient effects can be nasty, but it is worse to over-react. Don't treat people like children.
- AtlasBarfed 3y agoI am not as confident. At some point, the barrage of ads and media and intrusion will cross a breaking point. You already see the cracks, people are experiencing a postmodern disassociation with reality. Echo chambers, doomscrolling, hype cycles, misinformation, AI/Photoshop fakes, state level disinformation warfare, propaganda, and good old advertising are simply overwhelming people. The forthcoming fake flood of AI is the next possible breaking point. I think some people are starting to reject media, and I think the drumbeat is increasing.
- stephc_int13 3y ago> I think some people are starting to reject media, and I think the drumbeat is increasing. So why are you not confident? You're already seeing the immune system reaction.
- photonthug 3y agoRejecting media is next door to rejecting science, society, any and all rational argument etc. It’s not an immune reaction per se, it’s a preamble to shutdown. Basically we want people to choose what they believe judiciously, not to get overwhelmed and believe nothing.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoWe will look back at kids using smartphones the same way we look at kids smoking and wonder why we were so careless.
- grecy 3y agoHere's an article about an entire town where all the parents agreed none of them would get a smartphone for their kids, and so no kids felt like they were missing out, and then none of them pined for one. Sounds like a great plan. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jun/03/much-easier-to-say-no-irish-town-unites-in-smartphone-ban-for-young-children https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jun/03/much-easi...
- irrational 3y agoNo, it’s so bad that high school teachers presume that everyone has a smart phone, and if you don’t, you can’t participate in some parts of the classes. Complaining to school administrators falls on deaf ears.
- dudul 3y agoCan you explain what activities these are? My kids are not high school age yet and I didn't think it was that far gone.
- xboxnolifes 3y agoMy guess would be quiz-games like Kahoot or similar.
- spacechild1 3y agoOn the other hand, some schools started to ban smartphones on their grounds (at least here in Austria).
- RecycledEle 3y agoI wish there was a mobile device that ONLY had age-appropriate and educational content. Add in a well-aligned AI, and I'm sold. Think of the "Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" in Neil Stephenson's "The Diamond Age."
- tasuki 3y agoThere are very many such devices - at least every Android phone (but I guess Apple has the same). I installed Google Family Link the other day. Whitelisted 7 or so apps with what I consider age-appropriate content. Everything else is disabled.
- endisneigh 3y agoThey’ll get off their phones just after the adults.
- aussieguy1234 3y agoYes, we can. The age of smartphones and traditional computers is going to come to an end. Instead of a computer or smartphone with a UI, everyone will have an AI assistant they can interact with naturally as if they were another person. If you need visuals, you'll be able to ask your assistant "Show me the latest stock prices for MSFT" they will wave their hands and a graph will appear, similar to what you'd see if you used a stock trading app or site manually, but a much faster and more natural interaction. For this to happen, smart glasses need to become more compact, like normal glasses and visual AI avatars need to become a thing first. We already have the base of the brain in LLMs, large action models will only get better.
- pavel_lishin 3y agoThis feels like worse than the current situation, though.
- aussieguy1234 3y agoTo you, yes. Just like today, there will be retro enthusiasts who will keep doing things the old way.
- Izkata 3y agoWe already have some evidence of how bad it could get if what they describe just becomes normal: the Replika AI companion.
- MeImCounting 3y agoPeople have always been weird and obsessive with fake tech "relationships" I dont see how AI assistants would be any different than any previous iteration of technological interaction
- Krasnol 3y agoMy bet is that we'll have to wait for implants before this kicks off and makes mobile phones obsolete. I'd never talk to my glasses in public, and Google burned the popular image of those.
- everdrive 3y agoAdults can't even get off smart phones, so I wouldn't hold out much hope for kids.
- jinushaun 3y agoDisclaimer: I have kids. Reading the comments, I’m shocked people are resigned to it being an inevitability. As if we all didn’t grow up before internet and smartphones. (80s kid here) All those things are still there: museums, arcades, amusements parks and kid centers. Nevermind all the free stuff like parks, playgrounds and hiking. Or simply going over to a friend’s house. Did coloring books, legos and puzzles disappear? No. Hell, even TV is better than smartphones. Kids on smartphones is a choice. I think the problem is that modern society has forgotten that it is ok to be bored. You don’t have to be entertained every second of the day.
- dudul 3y agoI think it is even highly desirable to be bored once in a while. Completely agree with everything. Kids are just mirroring what they learnt from their parents. Phone at the dinner table, phone out as son as you step into the elevator for literally a 20sec ride, phone out on a date or when hanging out with friends. These started more than a decade ago.
- tempsy 3y agoI'm convinced kids who are in team sports end up more well adjusted as adults especially in the smartphone age. There are parents who don't put there kids in any extracurriculars and then there are parents who have their kids in sports growing up. With team sports at least you force your kids to put down phones/games and work on something that requires team effort and concentration and practice and social skills. Seems entirely underrated.
- sn41 3y agoWell, I guess one big part was gaming arcades, back then. They no longer exist, or are rare and derelict.
- kurthr 3y agoI agree, up to about junior high you can restrict smartphone/tablet usage. At about 12 it really seems like the social pressure to have a phone becomes really intense, unless there's some school wide restriction. I guess one question is how you introduce it in a way to inoculate them against the addiction without just allowing it. Mostly, I've just seen temporal restriction, but by 16 or so they can afford to have a "burner" so it's much harder to restrict at all.
- onthecanposting 3y agoCan We Get Everyone Off Smartphones? (corrected)
- spike021 3y agoThey probably shouldn't be on smartphones to begin with, rather than asking how to get them off smartphones. Then again I'm not a parent who puts their smartphone in a stand with full-blast volume when dining out so their kids are distracted from... something.
- s4mw1se 3y agoback in my day we just sucked the time release off oxycontin and popped a few xanaxs we stole from our moms and dads. Middle school was a wild time. Things are looking up for our kids now. There a couple more plasma clinics, and a new suboxne clinic right down the street. Rural america 2000-2024
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- barfbagginus 3y agoI plan to teach my I kids category theory as a condition of getting access to technology Solve the problems in one chapter of mac lane, and as a reward, you get to read the next chapter of mac lane. Rinse and repeat, and you get a smartphone, laptop, and a military surplus drone with an anti tank laser! And I get an award for Best dad ever! It's the perfect scam - once they know categories and drone warfare, they can intuitively transcend any technology or conflict!
- tasuki 3y agoI wish more parents were like you!
- sn9 3y agoI've toyed with the idea of having them read through Kandel's Principles of Neural Science until they can explain to me exactly how dopamine reward circuitry, addiction, and the neuroscience of attention and concentration and memory work as a precondition to getting a smartphone.
- tasuki 3y agoSo it talks about smartphones but all the drawbacks seem caused by social media. What is the problem with smartphones for (somewhat sensible) games, looking at family photos, and watching pre-downloaded fairy tales? (no YouTube with its toxic recommendations!)
- spicyusername 3y agoThis is my parenting philosophy. I let my children use my old smartphones in very limited ways for tasks I consider beneficial. Listening to podcasts made for children before bed. Listening to music. Sending monitored discord messages to their cousins. Using a toothbrushing app. Etc. Typically no more than an hour or so a day. My hope is that this teaches them how to use the technology in helpful ways, and this time typically replaces time spent passively watching TV.
- qarl 3y agoHere's a radical idea: Rather than blame it on the latest kid obsession (in my day it was the TV) maybe look at the world they are growing-up in. Maybe they're depressed because the world is burning down.
- galdosdi 3y agoThis is a common and ridiculous take, that could only be seriously proposed if one totally is ignorant of history. The burning-down-ness however measured has been as high and worse many times in many places. I mean, your great grand parents lived through the Great Depression and WW2. Obviously, the issue isn't more burning-down-ness today, but rather, the fact that many people feel that way is itself a symptom of a cultural problem, maybe driven by media/technology pushing the most controversial, depressing arguments possible, since that's what drives clicks and ad impressions.
- qarl 3y agoHm. As far as I'm aware, we did not have the technology to destroy the world back in WW2 or the Great Depression. Today, we have several avenues to destroy the entire world, including one that is merely incidental. And we continue to develop more. So no, I don't believe it is a ridiculous take. I believe your denial is the ridiculous (and naive) perspective.
- galdosdi 3y ago1) Maybe not "the" world as currently defined, but certainly _your_ world, ie your entire city or country, in a time in which it was hard to escape from or imagine much outside of that. So subjectively I don't see how I (or even my family or community) am/are much worse off than a Pompeiian. 1b) I can tell you are not very well aware of previous environmental catastrophes. There's historical evidence they've happened before, including in the Roman empire. 2) Nuclear weapons were first used in 1945. The big drop in mental health happened around 2012. Uncorrelated. 3) I'm not in denial because I haven't denied any _objective_ reality. The problems are real and they deserve equally real action, just as previous historical problems did. But our subjective _feelings_ about them are out of proportion. You just spend too much time reading about these problems -- and not enough time actually doing anything about them. That's why you're so depressed, yet nothing gets better. I'm not in denial, I'm not saying things don't need to get better. But wallowing and ruminating does not help anything get better, it's just pointless self-harm that's temporarily been normalized because we're in a weird cultural moment where big tech has rapidly able to colonize our culture for the sake of clicks and eyeballs. 4) I mean, considering how debilitating the "the world is ending so nothing matters" philosophy is, even if it's correct, absent total extinction, it will be selected out pretty quickly as most of the subscribers to the philosophy avoid reproducing. Or to put it another way, raising kids is inherently an act of radical hope, making that hope an inherently transmissible characteristic. 5) I really don't see how any of us are supposed to be able to successfully take action to contribute in any way large or small to fix the world or prevent the problems you worry about, if we're too busy being depressed about being hopeless about it.
- alexalx666 3y agoI bet after Gutenberg revolution people expected that society will elevate itself reading all the classics and instead it settled on cheap thrills. That means that if you want change you need to implement it inside your family / company and not rely on larger constructs such as government to solve this. Which is sad.
- steve1977 3y agoLet's start with providing them with more healthy and natural reward systems. Not what they get in school for example.
- rsync 3y agoTwo very random notes that may be helpful to someone ... First, non-data cellular plans exist - which is to say, you can get a SIM card[1] that has no capability for data. They are text and talk only. If you feel like your child needs a mobile phone for (reasons) they can have one without tiktok or insta available in every free moment. Second, you can create a wifi network that is "imessage only": # rules to allow dhcp and dns to work allow icmp from 10.0.0.0/8 to 10.0.0.0/8 allow udp from any 67,68 to any allow udp from any to any 67,68 allow udp from any to any 53 allow udp from any 53 to any # imessage rules allow tcp from 17.0.0.0/8 to any allow tcp from any to 17.0.0.0/8 80,443,5223 ... which means a 14yo daughter can still do "teenage girl talk on the phone" stuff but not allowed to doom-scroll instagram for hours. Yes, works for facetime as well. [1] Tello and USMobile both offer this IIRC ...