8 ms·

Is it possible that expectations around attendance have never been reasonable or even safe? In an ideal world, people shouldn't go to work or school when they

by jawns 3y ago

Is it possible that expectations around attendance have never been reasonable or even safe? In an ideal world, people shouldn't go to work or school when they are sick. Not only does it slow their recovery, but in the case of communicable diseases, it spreads the illness. Yet a lot of schools have released post-pandemic guidance about how students should still come to school with minor illnesses. And most workplaces have dialed back extra sick time that was available during the first couple of years of COVID.

MattGaiser 3y ago
Back when I was in school about a decade ago, kids came to school sick as dogs as taking time off for being sick was seen as malingering. A friend at another school knew a guy who came to school with a stomach bug and puked several times throughout the day as they had a perfect attendance incentive worth grades, so to ensure he got his grades, he walked around puking for the day. I spent plenty of classes hacking and coughing. So I don't think they are reasonable at all. If you are sick, you should stay home should still apply.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  Minor sniffles and sneezes should not result in anyone staying home. The pandemic has clearly altered this mentality but it doesn’t seem like a good trajectory. A little cold is barely an inconvenience.
  - from-nibly 3y ago
    No. Keep your kids home if they are sick. An screw every parent who thinks this way. My family got sick 6 times in the last 12 weeks because of this nonsense. If your kid is sick it's your fault if other kids catch what they have. I dont care if it's "just the sniffles" It causes so much inconveniece for my family.
    - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
      This is how it always was before covid and how it will always be if you send kids to germ factories (aka schools). Get the meds, drink water, go to sleep. Part and parcel of living in modern society.
      - earthling8118 3y ago
        It doesn't have to be this way. Covid has nothing to do with it. I didn't like it then, and don't like it now.
        freitzkriesler2 3y ago
        Then move to the boondocks. You want the benefits of community without the consequences. It's not going to happen and no I'm not going to sequester myself or wear masks for everyone else's benefit.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Unfortunately even if you have a "zero sniffles and max masking" policy schools are just a breeding ground for germ transmission. You're usually "infectious" before you're symptomatic, so it spreads like wildfire anyway. School sicknesses are so common that it might almost be argued that the point of public education is to make sure everyone is exposed to as many diseases as possible.
      - fn-mote 3y ago
        I completely disagree with this defeatist attitude, and I do not think it is supported by evidence. Regularly washing your hands reduces spread of the flu by 30%. (Old study, not going to find it.) I will believe anti-disease spread measures are effective until they are proven otherwise. > You're usually "infectious" before you're symptomatic This trait of Covid was what made it unusual. For the flu, the most infectious period days 1-3 with symptoms. ("Period of Contagiousness" in [1]... of course there are exceptions.) [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/keyfacts.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/keyfacts.htm
  - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
    Pretty much this. People keep kids home now for almost any reason at all and you'll get a chorus of replies telling you that your opinion is wrong. People need to toughen up. Not every cold is covid.
    - nothercastle 3y ago
      Why do you care? Most public schools are so slow now you could miss a month and they would still have not covered more than a week of material
      - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
        If you really think that, then you don't have a kid or worse: you have an abysmal school district. Part and parcel why I purposefully bought a house where the district was highly rated. Missing several weeks is a serious blow.
        nothercastle 3y ago
        I do have a kid in school. he’s a year ahead in Math simply by taking 1 class a week in supplement math school. Sure we have to do 15 homework day but that’s just an example of how slow they go. My kid is also pretty darn average so it’s not a natural talent thing. I have to drill flash cards with him cause school fails to teach those. All they seem to do is play games on the tablet. Maybe they learn something but it seems more like politically correct tv time.
        freitzkriesler2 3y ago
        Trust me, you're kid is smarter than average simply by virtue of you posting here.
    - jcpst 3y ago
      Also- getting cold symptoms and simply not acknowledging that it could be covid doesn’t make it not covid.
  - i80and 3y ago
    If you're sneezing and sniffling, please for the love of god, do not go to the office. Even before the pandemic we had that policy, and it's a very good default. No, colds are not the end of the world, but they are genuinely miserable, and you will share it. And if money is all somebody cares about, well, colds also diminish work output, so one ne'er-do-well going in sick can screw up an entire department's metrics over the course of several months.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      My office basically dictates that we show up regardless. Why? We work in legal services and our clients depend heavily on us and with massive consequences when we make mistakes. Court mandated deadlines don’t care about a runny nose. I see no measurable impact on performance.
      - usea 3y ago
        This is just another way of saying you're under-staffed so owners can capture more of the value of your labor. It's neither virtuous nor effective.
        williamcotton 3y ago
        No, it isn’t. I work side-by-side the CEO and as a colleague and he works more hours than anyone else. He’s a great person and a friend. We have multiple people in a company of about 15 who have worked there for over 20 years. Who are you working for?
        nec4b 3y ago
        Maybe for somebody who doesn't make him go to the office when sick?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - 3y ago
candiddevmike 3y ago
In my area, you get 10 days of unexcused absence per year before parents and kids start receiving fines and possibly a referral to CPS. That number is way too small IMO, and it forces folks to go to the doctor constantly for getting small illnesses excused (school policies are 24 hours without a fever, but they don't take temperatures, it's honor based...), since you want to keep those 10 days for an actual vacation.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  Why would you take your kids on a vacation during school? There are plenty of breaks during the year including all of summer.
  - MattGaiser 3y ago
    Price. If you can travel outside of Dec 20-Jan10th and summer, you can pay maybe half. I have an annual grand trip around the world every year I do off season and I pay less for it in points or cash (mix depends on the places) than friends do to go to Hawaii for a week at Christmas.
    - vlunkr 3y ago
      Also, lots of travel is based around life events. I can’t control the fact that funerals and weddings can happen at any time of year.
      - williamcotton 3y ago
        We’re going to two in-law weddings this year and missing a single day of school. Fly in, fly out. Funerals are bereavement leave from school so you don’t need to worry. I feel like 90% of midwesterners would be agreeing with me…
        bombcar 3y ago
        It can entirely depend on your family/friend circle. For me and mine, In-n-Out is expected, weddings are happening in the locality of one of the families, many are day trips. Other people's family and friends will have multiple destination weddings, etc. Still suspect it's not a major component, kids can only have so many grandparents after all.
gilbetron 3y ago
I think we do have too little leeway for illnesses for school, but I don't think that's what is going on, at least anecdotally around me. Many parents take their kids out of school for week long vacations, for instance. Also, my son informed me that the day before a big break only half the kids will show up. Plus kids will often just leave because they feel like going home that day. I thought he was exaggerating, but when I drive by the high school he's in, I'll often see a few kids just walking home (or wherever).
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  In my country taking kids out of school for vacation is illegal and sometimes fined. For illnesses after the 10th day a doctors note is needed in school. Kids can only decide to leave themselves if they are above 18 years old. That seems reasonable to me. How are rules in the US?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Often in the USA the written rules will be similar, but the actual rules are completely different. Few teachers are going to call the truant police on a high-school aged student who leaves during the day, even though technically they could. Younger students would more likely get the actual police called out of concern for safety, not enforcing school. Some schools it's so bad that the system just entirely gives up, but doesn't document it - so you have students who have never been to class more than a few days but according to the records, they're always there.
- InitialLastName 3y ago
  My high school went from ~20% Jewish to 80% Jewish every Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.
VyseofArcadia 3y ago
There is this liminal state of "sick, but not too sick to perform". A lot of us are fortunate enough to work from home if we've just got the sniffles, which lets us perform but not infect the office. For those of us who can't just do work or school remote, I sure wish we could at least do like Japan and mask up. It seems like it should be common courtesy.
- VancouverMan 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    You know, surgeons don't wear masks solely to protect themselves, right? They wear them to protect their patients as well as themselves. In fact, that's kind of the main idea. When the droplets that you exhale through a mask change direction, they lose velocity, and consequently range. I blame the lack of hands-on science education for the large number of people who don't intuitively grasp concepts like this. It's easy to blame things like right-wing media, but the media would have less power over people if they were given the opportunity to cultivate some common sense in childhood. In that regard, it sounds like things are only going to get worse.
  - swed420 3y ago
    For the communal masking method that was deployed early on in the pandemic due to N95 respirator shortages, you're correct. > At best, masking is a practice that makes the wearer think they're doing something "courteous", when they really aren't doing anything beneficial at all. Fortunately in 2024, individuals have the freedom to choose to wear an N95 for their own personal protection. These devices are effective when worn properly, especially compared to vaccines when trying to minimize transmission to prevent reinfections which increase the risk of long COVID.
  - slices 3y ago
    shorter version: Cochrane Review on efficacy of masking vs. respiratory disease
  - 3y ago
kube-system 3y ago
> Chronic absence is typically defined as missing at least 10 percent of the school year, or about 18 days, for any reason. I don't think having a cold or two is going to put many people in this category. Decades ago when I was in public school, the kids who were chronically absent like this were the ones who clearly had some behavioral issues or problems at home. The linked study also demonstrates that the rates are strongly associated with socioeconomic factors. I think the real issue here is that a subset of people simply have fewer fucks to give about school, and that has been accelerated by the distance and space that COVID created between students/parents and school.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Oh hey I was chronically absent under this definition. I am glad my parents allowed me to be, because school was really, really damaging to my mental health when I ended up needing to be chronically absent.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Hope you got the help you needed -- but to my point, it doesn't sound like you simply had a cold?
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      Nope. Not a cold, although that was the excuse :). And yeah, I simply just needed to be away from school. I guess I’m more so making a point that during the pandemic there was also probably a ton of students who realized they can learn without school, and it might even be better for them.
- nytesky 3y ago
  My daughter has missed 10 days of school because of a lingering cough even when not actively sick. She doesn’t sleep well and teachers now consider her disruptive if coughing in class. I think th expectation is no longer to go to school with sniffles and a box of tissues.
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
ballenf 3y ago
Before covid we'd ask our kids what they did and we'd get the usual super brief explanation but would assume that kids just didn't want to go into detail or didn't remember. After covid, we realized that their answer was closer to the truth than all the learning we imagined in our heads. To some degree elementary school has always been a large part daycare and small part teaching. But the one big change from my experience is that amount of standardized testing even 3rd graders do. Every month or two there's another day or two spent on testing and then several days before that getting them ready for it. I can't imagine being a teacher trying to craft lesson plans around all that.
- vundercind 3y ago
  Can confirm it’s terrible. Part of the reason my long-time teacher wife got out was that so little of the work is actually productively teaching and it’d gotten worse with each year. The other reasons were… everything else. Consistently toxic work environments across several schools, a culture of “just do a little more—it’s for the kids!”, shit pay, low social standing, watching students have mental health crises or terrible troubles at home and occasionally kill themselves while not being able to do much about it, corrupt petty-dictator superintendents, constant flailing between expensive “frameworks” implemented so incompetently that they plainly have no hope of working right, et c. The small part of summer they’re actually off and not prepping for the next year was the only good thing about it, by the end. The insulting demands, organizational dysfunction, and lack of support during Covid was the final straw—for her and lots of others, now the field has a severe teacher shortage.
- Uehreka 3y ago
  > To some degree elementary school has always been a large part daycare and small part teaching. This was definitely a fashionable thing to say last decade. But in a post-Covid world where we’ve seen meaningful deficits in skills as a result of disruptions to in-person elementary school attendance, I think we should re-evaluate this prior. It seems evident that there’s a lot more going on in school than just babysitting.
  - fn-mote 3y ago
verisimi 3y ago
> Is it possible that expectations around attendance have never been reasonable or even safe? When I read this, I thought you were making a more general point, rather than about missing school on account of sickness. To the general point, I think schooling is entirely unreasonable, and a terrible way to bring up humans. Though, I obviously think it is valuable to learn to read and write, know maths and certain tools to get by in life. But the rest of it is terrible - institutionalising children, filling children up with government ideas as if no other interpretations are available, the insistence of deference to authority, leaving no space for individuality, the application of some sort of 'people metric' where you are a problem if you don't want to sit for hours or find the propaganda dull. And this is to say nothing of the impossible expectations teachers have on them, which make the lessons even more depersonalising and uninspiring. In the face of this, we will see perpetual ai teachers and the lifetime monitoring as a good thing. No wonder there are so many lost people - people who have been brought up by loveless institutions can't even conceive of what they have not experienced - the materialistic collectivised mindset seems 'normal', rather than being seen as an ultra-radicalised ideology itself. Most people have completely lost sight of what it means to bring up children. It's simply not about farming out the job to institutional structures.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  Government schools are like government housing: you only use it if you lack the means for literally any other option.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
This hypothesis doesn't at all jive with the data in the article, which is about chronic absenteeism, and which shows that absentee rates have absolutely exploded. This is not just about people with the sniffles not coming to school.
- swed420 3y ago
  How is the mental health of these chronically absent kids? Surely nonstop COVID reinfections aren't doing their brains any favors. https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asymptomatic-organ-damage-to-long-covid-syndrome/#brain https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asym...
runamuck 3y ago
Back in the day I would go to work with severe flu like symptoms. My company championed heroics and I could get points for showing up on "deaths door" reporting to duty. Of course, a few hours in a manager would notice and they would send me home. If you just called in sick, however, "people would talk." Crazy to think about that in the lens of 2024!
schwartzworld 3y ago
Honestly I don't know what the answer is. Having a kid stay home sick is a tremendous burden for working parents. Maybe it's not so bad if one parent is a homemaker, or if you have a network of family members to support you. Many families do not. It's quite difficult for us to manage on top of the many times school closes when work does not. We are both lucky enough to even have jobs that let you take a last minute personal day to care for your child, but many jobs do not work this way, or even if you can take off, you lose income. You're not going to keep a kid with a stuffy nose home if it means not having enough to make ends meet. Tough shit, right? But kids get minor colds a lot. In the winter they just infect each other (and us) all the time. Often, by the time they show symptoms the whole class has already been infected. The practical realities have to be acknowledged. The solution is to draw a line, on one side you are sick enough to be required to stay home, and on the other, oh well.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Today, it is harder to keep your kid in school if they have a stuffy nose, than it is too justify why you are keeping your kid out of school. Winters are tough: our school nurse will send my kid home if he crosses some line that isn't very clear, even if he is fine otherwise. I just don't see it as realistic that my kid be 100% healthy to go to school, especially during snotty nose season. But then again I went to school no matter what when I was a kid, it was definitely an extreme in the opposite direction. There must a balance between protecting the school and letting the kid get a good education that isn't interrupted too much (consistency and stability is also important).

by jawns 3y ago

MattGaiser 3y ago

Back when I was in school about a decade ago, kids came to school sick as dogs as taking time off for being sick was seen as malingering. A friend at another school knew a guy who came to school with a stomach bug and puked several times throughout the day as they had a perfect attendance incentive worth grades, so to ensure he got his grades, he walked around puking for the day. I spent plenty of classes hacking and coughing. So I don't think they are reasonable at all. If you are sick, you should stay home should still apply.

williamcotton 3y ago
Minor sniffles and sneezes should not result in anyone staying home. The pandemic has clearly altered this mentality but it doesn’t seem like a good trajectory. A little cold is barely an inconvenience.
- from-nibly 3y ago
  No. Keep your kids home if they are sick. An screw every parent who thinks this way. My family got sick 6 times in the last 12 weeks because of this nonsense. If your kid is sick it's your fault if other kids catch what they have. I dont care if it's "just the sniffles" It causes so much inconveniece for my family.
  - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
    This is how it always was before covid and how it will always be if you send kids to germ factories (aka schools). Get the meds, drink water, go to sleep. Part and parcel of living in modern society.
    - earthling8118 3y ago
      It doesn't have to be this way. Covid has nothing to do with it. I didn't like it then, and don't like it now.
      - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
        Then move to the boondocks. You want the benefits of community without the consequences. It's not going to happen and no I'm not going to sequester myself or wear masks for everyone else's benefit.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Unfortunately even if you have a "zero sniffles and max masking" policy schools are just a breeding ground for germ transmission. You're usually "infectious" before you're symptomatic, so it spreads like wildfire anyway. School sicknesses are so common that it might almost be argued that the point of public education is to make sure everyone is exposed to as many diseases as possible.
    - fn-mote 3y ago
      I completely disagree with this defeatist attitude, and I do not think it is supported by evidence. Regularly washing your hands reduces spread of the flu by 30%. (Old study, not going to find it.) I will believe anti-disease spread measures are effective until they are proven otherwise. > You're usually "infectious" before you're symptomatic This trait of Covid was what made it unusual. For the flu, the most infectious period days 1-3 with symptoms. ("Period of Contagiousness" in [1]... of course there are exceptions.) [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/keyfacts.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/keyfacts.htm
- freitzkriesler2 3y ago
  Pretty much this. People keep kids home now for almost any reason at all and you'll get a chorus of replies telling you that your opinion is wrong. People need to toughen up. Not every cold is covid.
  - nothercastle 3y ago
    Why do you care? Most public schools are so slow now you could miss a month and they would still have not covered more than a week of material
    - freitzkriesler2 3y ago
      If you really think that, then you don't have a kid or worse: you have an abysmal school district. Part and parcel why I purposefully bought a house where the district was highly rated. Missing several weeks is a serious blow.
      - nothercastle 3y ago
        I do have a kid in school. he’s a year ahead in Math simply by taking 1 class a week in supplement math school. Sure we have to do 15 homework day but that’s just an example of how slow they go. My kid is also pretty darn average so it’s not a natural talent thing. I have to drill flash cards with him cause school fails to teach those. All they seem to do is play games on the tablet. Maybe they learn something but it seems more like politically correct tv time.
        freitzkriesler2 3y ago
        Trust me, you're kid is smarter than average simply by virtue of you posting here.
  - jcpst 3y ago
    Also- getting cold symptoms and simply not acknowledging that it could be covid doesn’t make it not covid.
- i80and 3y ago
  If you're sneezing and sniffling, please for the love of god, do not go to the office. Even before the pandemic we had that policy, and it's a very good default. No, colds are not the end of the world, but they are genuinely miserable, and you will share it. And if money is all somebody cares about, well, colds also diminish work output, so one ne'er-do-well going in sick can screw up an entire department's metrics over the course of several months.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    My office basically dictates that we show up regardless. Why? We work in legal services and our clients depend heavily on us and with massive consequences when we make mistakes. Court mandated deadlines don’t care about a runny nose. I see no measurable impact on performance.
    - usea 3y ago
      This is just another way of saying you're under-staffed so owners can capture more of the value of your labor. It's neither virtuous nor effective.
      - williamcotton 3y ago
        No, it isn’t. I work side-by-side the CEO and as a colleague and he works more hours than anyone else. He’s a great person and a friend. We have multiple people in a company of about 15 who have worked there for over 20 years. Who are you working for?
        nec4b 3y ago
        Maybe for somebody who doesn't make him go to the office when sick?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - 3y ago

candiddevmike 3y ago

In my area, you get 10 days of unexcused absence per year before parents and kids start receiving fines and possibly a referral to CPS. That number is way too small IMO, and it forces folks to go to the doctor constantly for getting small illnesses excused (school policies are 24 hours without a fever, but they don't take temperatures, it's honor based...), since you want to keep those 10 days for an actual vacation.

williamcotton 3y ago
Why would you take your kids on a vacation during school? There are plenty of breaks during the year including all of summer.
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  Price. If you can travel outside of Dec 20-Jan10th and summer, you can pay maybe half. I have an annual grand trip around the world every year I do off season and I pay less for it in points or cash (mix depends on the places) than friends do to go to Hawaii for a week at Christmas.
  - vlunkr 3y ago
    Also, lots of travel is based around life events. I can’t control the fact that funerals and weddings can happen at any time of year.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      We’re going to two in-law weddings this year and missing a single day of school. Fly in, fly out. Funerals are bereavement leave from school so you don’t need to worry. I feel like 90% of midwesterners would be agreeing with me…
      - bombcar 3y ago
        It can entirely depend on your family/friend circle. For me and mine, In-n-Out is expected, weddings are happening in the locality of one of the families, many are day trips. Other people's family and friends will have multiple destination weddings, etc. Still suspect it's not a major component, kids can only have so many grandparents after all.

gilbetron 3y ago

I think we do have too little leeway for illnesses for school, but I don't think that's what is going on, at least anecdotally around me. Many parents take their kids out of school for week long vacations, for instance. Also, my son informed me that the day before a big break only half the kids will show up. Plus kids will often just leave because they feel like going home that day. I thought he was exaggerating, but when I drive by the high school he's in, I'll often see a few kids just walking home (or wherever).

master-lincoln 3y ago
In my country taking kids out of school for vacation is illegal and sometimes fined. For illnesses after the 10th day a doctors note is needed in school. Kids can only decide to leave themselves if they are above 18 years old. That seems reasonable to me. How are rules in the US?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Often in the USA the written rules will be similar, but the actual rules are completely different. Few teachers are going to call the truant police on a high-school aged student who leaves during the day, even though technically they could. Younger students would more likely get the actual police called out of concern for safety, not enforcing school. Some schools it's so bad that the system just entirely gives up, but doesn't document it - so you have students who have never been to class more than a few days but according to the records, they're always there.
InitialLastName 3y ago
My high school went from ~20% Jewish to 80% Jewish every Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

VyseofArcadia 3y ago

There is this liminal state of "sick, but not too sick to perform". A lot of us are fortunate enough to work from home if we've just got the sniffles, which lets us perform but not infect the office. For those of us who can't just do work or school remote, I sure wish we could at least do like Japan and mask up. It seems like it should be common courtesy.

VancouverMan 3y ago
[flagged]
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  You know, surgeons don't wear masks solely to protect themselves, right? They wear them to protect their patients as well as themselves. In fact, that's kind of the main idea. When the droplets that you exhale through a mask change direction, they lose velocity, and consequently range. I blame the lack of hands-on science education for the large number of people who don't intuitively grasp concepts like this. It's easy to blame things like right-wing media, but the media would have less power over people if they were given the opportunity to cultivate some common sense in childhood. In that regard, it sounds like things are only going to get worse.
- swed420 3y ago
  For the communal masking method that was deployed early on in the pandemic due to N95 respirator shortages, you're correct. > At best, masking is a practice that makes the wearer think they're doing something "courteous", when they really aren't doing anything beneficial at all. Fortunately in 2024, individuals have the freedom to choose to wear an N95 for their own personal protection. These devices are effective when worn properly, especially compared to vaccines when trying to minimize transmission to prevent reinfections which increase the risk of long COVID.
- slices 3y ago
  shorter version: Cochrane Review on efficacy of masking vs. respiratory disease
- 3y ago

kube-system 3y ago

> Chronic absence is typically defined as missing at least 10 percent of the school year, or about 18 days, for any reason. I don't think having a cold or two is going to put many people in this category. Decades ago when I was in public school, the kids who were chronically absent like this were the ones who clearly had some behavioral issues or problems at home. The linked study also demonstrates that the rates are strongly associated with socioeconomic factors. I think the real issue here is that a subset of people simply have fewer fucks to give about school, and that has been accelerated by the distance and space that COVID created between students/parents and school.

aaomidi 3y ago
Oh hey I was chronically absent under this definition. I am glad my parents allowed me to be, because school was really, really damaging to my mental health when I ended up needing to be chronically absent.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Hope you got the help you needed -- but to my point, it doesn't sound like you simply had a cold?
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    Nope. Not a cold, although that was the excuse :). And yeah, I simply just needed to be away from school. I guess I’m more so making a point that during the pandemic there was also probably a ton of students who realized they can learn without school, and it might even be better for them.
nytesky 3y ago
My daughter has missed 10 days of school because of a lingering cough even when not actively sick. She doesn’t sleep well and teachers now consider her disruptive if coughing in class. I think th expectation is no longer to go to school with sniffles and a box of tissues.

oldpersonintx 3y ago

[dead]

ballenf 3y ago

Before covid we'd ask our kids what they did and we'd get the usual super brief explanation but would assume that kids just didn't want to go into detail or didn't remember. After covid, we realized that their answer was closer to the truth than all the learning we imagined in our heads. To some degree elementary school has always been a large part daycare and small part teaching. But the one big change from my experience is that amount of standardized testing even 3rd graders do. Every month or two there's another day or two spent on testing and then several days before that getting them ready for it. I can't imagine being a teacher trying to craft lesson plans around all that.

vundercind 3y ago
Can confirm it’s terrible. Part of the reason my long-time teacher wife got out was that so little of the work is actually productively teaching and it’d gotten worse with each year. The other reasons were… everything else. Consistently toxic work environments across several schools, a culture of “just do a little more—it’s for the kids!”, shit pay, low social standing, watching students have mental health crises or terrible troubles at home and occasionally kill themselves while not being able to do much about it, corrupt petty-dictator superintendents, constant flailing between expensive “frameworks” implemented so incompetently that they plainly have no hope of working right, et c. The small part of summer they’re actually off and not prepping for the next year was the only good thing about it, by the end. The insulting demands, organizational dysfunction, and lack of support during Covid was the final straw—for her and lots of others, now the field has a severe teacher shortage.
Uehreka 3y ago
> To some degree elementary school has always been a large part daycare and small part teaching. This was definitely a fashionable thing to say last decade. But in a post-Covid world where we’ve seen meaningful deficits in skills as a result of disruptions to in-person elementary school attendance, I think we should re-evaluate this prior. It seems evident that there’s a lot more going on in school than just babysitting.
- fn-mote 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago

> Is it possible that expectations around attendance have never been reasonable or even safe? When I read this, I thought you were making a more general point, rather than about missing school on account of sickness. To the general point, I think schooling is entirely unreasonable, and a terrible way to bring up humans. Though, I obviously think it is valuable to learn to read and write, know maths and certain tools to get by in life. But the rest of it is terrible - institutionalising children, filling children up with government ideas as if no other interpretations are available, the insistence of deference to authority, leaving no space for individuality, the application of some sort of 'people metric' where you are a problem if you don't want to sit for hours or find the propaganda dull. And this is to say nothing of the impossible expectations teachers have on them, which make the lessons even more depersonalising and uninspiring. In the face of this, we will see perpetual ai teachers and the lifetime monitoring as a good thing. No wonder there are so many lost people - people who have been brought up by loveless institutions can't even conceive of what they have not experienced - the materialistic collectivised mindset seems 'normal', rather than being seen as an ultra-radicalised ideology itself. Most people have completely lost sight of what it means to bring up children. It's simply not about farming out the job to institutional structures.

linuxftw 3y ago
Government schools are like government housing: you only use it if you lack the means for literally any other option.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

This hypothesis doesn't at all jive with the data in the article, which is about chronic absenteeism, and which shows that absentee rates have absolutely exploded. This is not just about people with the sniffles not coming to school.

swed420 3y ago
How is the mental health of these chronically absent kids? Surely nonstop COVID reinfections aren't doing their brains any favors. https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asymptomatic-organ-damage-to-long-covid-syndrome/#brain https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asym...

runamuck 3y ago

Back in the day I would go to work with severe flu like symptoms. My company championed heroics and I could get points for showing up on "deaths door" reporting to duty. Of course, a few hours in a manager would notice and they would send me home. If you just called in sick, however, "people would talk." Crazy to think about that in the lens of 2024!

schwartzworld 3y ago

Honestly I don't know what the answer is. Having a kid stay home sick is a tremendous burden for working parents. Maybe it's not so bad if one parent is a homemaker, or if you have a network of family members to support you. Many families do not. It's quite difficult for us to manage on top of the many times school closes when work does not. We are both lucky enough to even have jobs that let you take a last minute personal day to care for your child, but many jobs do not work this way, or even if you can take off, you lose income. You're not going to keep a kid with a stuffy nose home if it means not having enough to make ends meet. Tough shit, right? But kids get minor colds a lot. In the winter they just infect each other (and us) all the time. Often, by the time they show symptoms the whole class has already been infected. The practical realities have to be acknowledged. The solution is to draw a line, on one side you are sick enough to be required to stay home, and on the other, oh well.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Today, it is harder to keep your kid in school if they have a stuffy nose, than it is too justify why you are keeping your kid out of school. Winters are tough: our school nurse will send my kid home if he crosses some line that isn't very clear, even if he is fine otherwise. I just don't see it as realistic that my kid be 100% healthy to go to school, especially during snotty nose season. But then again I went to school no matter what when I was a kid, it was definitely an extreme in the opposite direction. There must a balance between protecting the school and letting the kid get a good education that isn't interrupted too much (consistency and stability is also important).