4 ms·

Did I just end that sentence with a preposition? A preposition is a perfectly acceptable thing to end a sentence with. Seriously. If you find yourself re-writi

Did I just end that sentence with a preposition? A preposition is a perfectly acceptable thing to end a sentence with. Seriously. If you find yourself re-writing it as "with which to end a sentence" you're going to come across as stilted and awkward.

thisishugo 14y ago
Unless writing for a scientific journal, or some other such formal setting, your goal of clear communication will be best served by using a casual, conversational style that resonates as closely as possible with how you would talk to your reader in person. That means prepositions are very much something you can end a sentence with. And you can start one with a conjunctive too, if it feels right. The rules of grammar are more like the pirate code than an ISO standard - they're more what you might call guidelines, really.
- jeffpersonified 14y ago
  All is dependent on audience.
- nollidge 14y ago
  Agreed. Grammar's just norms of communication, and norms depend on context. So treat the violation of them as such - sometimes it matters, sometimes it don't.
  - sitkack 14y ago
    Apropos, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY it would seem this whole topic is rather inflammable.
- mikebike 14y ago
  I think we'd be better served using such styles in scientific journals more often. As an example, here's a wonderfully written article by the late statistician, Jacob Cohen: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sternh/courses/210/cohen94_pval.pdf http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sternh/courses/210/cohen94_pval.pdf
  - disgruntledphd2 14y ago
    Just to note, although he wrote far more on statistics, he was a psychologist born and bred.
madhadron 14y ago
Eschewing trailing prepositions is a rule improperly inherited from Latin. It does not apply to Germanic tongues where prepositions are necessary to disambiguate verbs. For example, to ask about, to ask of, to ask to, and to ask in are very quite distinct. In Latin, the default position of the verb is the end of the sentence. Latin word order isn't fixed like English, so the ordering of words is a form of emphasis, and placing something in the final position, after the verb, is one of the strongest emphases possible. Putting a preposition in that position would be like someone screaming "WITH! WITH!" on a soapbox on the street corner. It's a useful rule though: an English grammar book that proscribes trailing prepositions is one you needn't spend any more time with. Just put it down and forget that it exists. Like so many other rules, it results from Latin-steeped scholars of the 19th century who were uncomfortable with the flexibility of their native tongue, and attempted to hem it round. It's understandable. These men knew they could use the full scope of expression of Latin. About the only person who's ever pushed English hard enough to make it creak was James Joyce. Amusing aside: you can transform transitive verbs into nouns in English directly (to request, a request). You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English. Verbs with both forms are an interesting grey area, such as to dig vs to dig for.
- adavies42 14y ago
  nicely written. > You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English. i think i'll have a bit of a lie-down now....
  - telemachos 14y ago
    > I think I'll have a bit of a lie-down now... Maybe in your lean-to? (Only other example I can think of quickly.) More seriously, thanks to the grand-parent for squelching the preposition nonsense so soundly.
- FreakLegion 14y ago
  < Latin word order isn't fixed like English It isn't fixed like English, but parts of it are indeed fixed, prepositions being one of them. The issue isn't that putting a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin gives the preposition undue emphasis, but rather that you simply can't put a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin[1]. Ending an English sentence with an article would be roughly similar in terms of nonsensicality. As for Joyce, well, you know he's binomeans to be comprendered! 1. It's the same with split infinitives, which you just can't do in Latin short of tmesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis#Latin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis#Latin).
eropple 14y ago
I'm not against ending a sentence with a preposition, but I find myself often unconsciously avoiding doing it in speech as well as in writing. I don't really find it stilted (but I don't care about the issue one way or another). I say "what are you talking about?" about as naturally as I do "On which machine does this process run?".
crazygringo 14y ago
"This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." -- Winston Churchill, on not ending sentences with prepositions
- gruseom 14y ago
  Alas, there's no evidence Churchill ever said it. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
  - nakkiel 14y ago
    Didn't he patent Facebook too?

thisishugo 14y ago

Unless writing for a scientific journal, or some other such formal setting, your goal of clear communication will be best served by using a casual, conversational style that resonates as closely as possible with how you would talk to your reader in person. That means prepositions are very much something you can end a sentence with. And you can start one with a conjunctive too, if it feels right. The rules of grammar are more like the pirate code than an ISO standard - they're more what you might call guidelines, really.

jeffpersonified 14y ago
All is dependent on audience.
nollidge 14y ago
Agreed. Grammar's just norms of communication, and norms depend on context. So treat the violation of them as such - sometimes it matters, sometimes it don't.
- sitkack 14y ago
  Apropos, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY it would seem this whole topic is rather inflammable.
mikebike 14y ago
I think we'd be better served using such styles in scientific journals more often. As an example, here's a wonderfully written article by the late statistician, Jacob Cohen: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sternh/courses/210/cohen94_pval.pdf http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sternh/courses/210/cohen94_pval.pdf
- disgruntledphd2 14y ago
  Just to note, although he wrote far more on statistics, he was a psychologist born and bred.

madhadron 14y ago

Eschewing trailing prepositions is a rule improperly inherited from Latin. It does not apply to Germanic tongues where prepositions are necessary to disambiguate verbs. For example, to ask about, to ask of, to ask to, and to ask in are very quite distinct. In Latin, the default position of the verb is the end of the sentence. Latin word order isn't fixed like English, so the ordering of words is a form of emphasis, and placing something in the final position, after the verb, is one of the strongest emphases possible. Putting a preposition in that position would be like someone screaming "WITH! WITH!" on a soapbox on the street corner. It's a useful rule though: an English grammar book that proscribes trailing prepositions is one you needn't spend any more time with. Just put it down and forget that it exists. Like so many other rules, it results from Latin-steeped scholars of the 19th century who were uncomfortable with the flexibility of their native tongue, and attempted to hem it round. It's understandable. These men knew they could use the full scope of expression of Latin. About the only person who's ever pushed English hard enough to make it creak was James Joyce. Amusing aside: you can transform transitive verbs into nouns in English directly (to request, a request). You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English. Verbs with both forms are an interesting grey area, such as to dig vs to dig for.

adavies42 14y ago
nicely written. > You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English. i think i'll have a bit of a lie-down now....
- telemachos 14y ago
  > I think I'll have a bit of a lie-down now... Maybe in your lean-to? (Only other example I can think of quickly.) More seriously, thanks to the grand-parent for squelching the preposition nonsense so soundly.
FreakLegion 14y ago
< Latin word order isn't fixed like English It isn't fixed like English, but parts of it are indeed fixed, prepositions being one of them. The issue isn't that putting a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin gives the preposition undue emphasis, but rather that you simply can't put a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin[1]. Ending an English sentence with an article would be roughly similar in terms of nonsensicality. As for Joyce, well, you know he's binomeans to be comprendered! 1. It's the same with split infinitives, which you just can't do in Latin short of tmesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis#Latin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis#Latin).

eropple 14y ago

I'm not against ending a sentence with a preposition, but I find myself often unconsciously avoiding doing it in speech as well as in writing. I don't really find it stilted (but I don't care about the issue one way or another). I say "what are you talking about?" about as naturally as I do "On which machine does this process run?".

crazygringo 14y ago

"This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." -- Winston Churchill, on not ending sentences with prepositions

gruseom 14y ago
Alas, there's no evidence Churchill ever said it. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
- nakkiel 14y ago
  Didn't he patent Facebook too?