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Child Support Important missing context, failure to pay child support is the most common “debt-related drivers license suspension”. This is about creating inc

Child Support Important missing context, failure to pay child support is the most common “debt-related drivers license suspension”. This is about creating incentives that help ensure children get the financial support they are entitled via court rulings on their case. https://www.bmv.ohio.gov/susp-other-points.aspx https://www.bmv.ohio.gov/susp-other-points.aspx

deleted 3y ago
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snypher 3y ago
With needing a vehicle being an important gateway to income for most, this might be a step too far.
deleted 3y ago
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indymike 3y ago
First, paying child support is a moral obligation. Second, DRS is stupid (it harms the enforcer of the policy, society, and the person who is not making payments). It removes the ability of the person who is supposed to pay child support from having money to make the payment. The article points out the potential economic fallout of DRS - and there is a connection to tech: Intel is building a huge facility that will employ many Ohioans there and will have a workforce constantly at risk of having their license suspended over unpaid medical bills. The only word that even begins to describe DRS is stupid. Third, child support is only one reason someone may have a DRS. Any payment resulting from a judgment (even administrative) can result in a DRS -- so routine collections often result in suspensions. Child support is only one of many ways someone can find themselves with a suspended license. DRS makes about as much sense as debtor's prisons.
- chii 3y ago
  exactly. it seems dumb to be taking away the means of repaying the debt from the person as a form of punishment for the debt.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    And it seems dumb because that isn't how it works. I swear there should be a SomePerson's Law that says, "If a currently functioning system can't possibly work that way, then it probably doesn't." Like over the years and years this system has been in place and the many people involved in it y'all really believe no one has thought of this before? You don't just get your license suspended if you stop paying, you get a suspension when you... 1. Stop paying child support. 2. Get a notice of from the government telling you to get in contact with them to set up a hearing to address the non-payment and ignore it. 2b. Set up the hearing, fail to have good reason for non-payment and refuse to negotiate a payment schedule and... 3b. Don't appeal the decision or fail to make your case at the appeal. While with any system involving humans you can get a series of fuck-you-in-particular's there's quite a few checks. It is explicitly the charge of the DCS to keep this very catch-22 from happening by having lots of different enforcement mechanisms and taking the person's finances into account. If you don't have a job and are making a "good faith effort" to get one they won't suspend your license.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  My impression is that paying child support is a judicial obligation, and whether it's moral or not comes down to how moral the ruling is, and whether or not the obliged payer neglects the payment for an immoral reason. To say it's by definition a moral obligation is to say that the court ruling defines morality, or that there are no valid reasons someone couldn't or shouldn't pay, and that'd be a bit silly, but I assume you're being hyperbolic.
  - Arainach 3y ago
    If you have a child, you should pay to support it. This is a moral obligation. It doesn't matter if you didn't intend to have a child, it doesn't matter if you're not currently in a relationship with the other parent.
    - cataphract 3y ago
      Maybe it is a moral obligation, maybe it's not. Depends entirely on the circumstances and in your framework for morality. Maybe paying child support prevents the parent from getting any sort of stability in their life. Maybe the money is squandered. Maybe responsibility should fall on society more generally, and the fact that basic needs of children depend on the financial capacity of the parents is itself immoral. Or the way society organizes itself around money is immoral. Not saying that that agree in general with those statements, but your categorical statement just irked me.
  - HumblyTossed 3y ago
    > My impression is that paying child support is a judicial obligation, You're wrong. Plenty of people work out child support without having to even go to court specifically for that. Most people do the moral thing and take care of a child they were responsible for bringing into this world.
    - bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
      As noted above, the father is never responsible for a child being born. The mother is the one who makes that choice.
- matt3210 3y ago
  Once there is conception, only 1 side of the population is allowed to choose not to take on the consequences of producing child. We shouldn’t take that choice away, but we should extend the decision of taking on the obligations to the otherside.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    No, you made your choice when you jizzed in her bits. Don't want a kid and scared the lady won't abort if you get her pregnant? Don't jizz in her. That's like, part of sex. Don't like that you don't get to raw dog her now? Too fucking bad, man up. Find someone who agrees with your choice to not have a child including having an abortion if necessary or don't jizz in her. She literally cannot get pregnant without you jizzing in her.
lolinder 3y ago
Why does that alter the calculus here? It's still a practice that isn't far removed from debtors prison—the incentives we've set up to pay the debt can, if used, actually prevent the debtor from paying their debts. The question isn't whether the debt ought to be paid, it's whether this method of enforcement is counterproductive.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  There's very few tools available, so license suspensions have been just a general purpose tool to annoy people. In cases like child support, I think it probably does work to some extent. They have a ton of people that they think could pay, but are dragging their feet. Would you prefer send them straight to jail? BTW I take the extreme stance against almost all license sanctions. That said, I have to admit without them, and without the threat of jail, many crimes would have little deterrents. Same story IMO with criminal records and going after people's careers. We would need to develop creative new sanctions, and arguably should anyway; but I see no good ideas.
0xfaded 3y ago
The simple solution is to have the government pay out the child support and make the debt to the government.
- nobody9999 3y ago
  >The simple solution is to have the government pay out the child support and make the debt to the government. AIUI, a number of US states deal with child support in exactly that way: Payments are made to the responsible state agency and they remit the funds to the custodial parent.
rad_gruchalski 3y ago
“Think of the children.”
Waterluvian 3y ago
Even if the cause is good, the mechanism is a lose-lose. You can’t pay anything if you’ve lost your job because you couldn’t drive to work or are busy in court for driving without a license.
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Nothing says "have money to pay child support" like "don't have money to pay child support because you got fired from your job and have fines for having a suspended license because you were behind on child support." Sorry, but this is insanely counterproductive.
- sonotathrowaway 3y ago
  You have to view it more like: “how do we hurt poor people and make their lives worse?” And less from a logical perspective.
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    Exactly. This is the US we're talking about, and figuring out ways to make poor peoples' lives even worse, and increase the wealth gap as much as possible in order to cause social unrest and eventual societal collapse is an integral part of the country's government. They're bent on self-destruction.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Suspending a Dad's driver's license because they fail to pay child support works out well how? Now that they've lost their job (because no drive, no job) and so they have a real excuse for not paying it?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

snypher 3y ago

With needing a vehicle being an important gateway to income for most, this might be a step too far.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

indymike 3y ago

First, paying child support is a moral obligation. Second, DRS is stupid (it harms the enforcer of the policy, society, and the person who is not making payments). It removes the ability of the person who is supposed to pay child support from having money to make the payment. The article points out the potential economic fallout of DRS - and there is a connection to tech: Intel is building a huge facility that will employ many Ohioans there and will have a workforce constantly at risk of having their license suspended over unpaid medical bills. The only word that even begins to describe DRS is stupid. Third, child support is only one reason someone may have a DRS. Any payment resulting from a judgment (even administrative) can result in a DRS -- so routine collections often result in suspensions. Child support is only one of many ways someone can find themselves with a suspended license. DRS makes about as much sense as debtor's prisons.

chii 3y ago
exactly. it seems dumb to be taking away the means of repaying the debt from the person as a form of punishment for the debt.
- Spivak 3y ago
  And it seems dumb because that isn't how it works. I swear there should be a SomePerson's Law that says, "If a currently functioning system can't possibly work that way, then it probably doesn't." Like over the years and years this system has been in place and the many people involved in it y'all really believe no one has thought of this before? You don't just get your license suspended if you stop paying, you get a suspension when you... 1. Stop paying child support. 2. Get a notice of from the government telling you to get in contact with them to set up a hearing to address the non-payment and ignore it. 2b. Set up the hearing, fail to have good reason for non-payment and refuse to negotiate a payment schedule and... 3b. Don't appeal the decision or fail to make your case at the appeal. While with any system involving humans you can get a series of fuck-you-in-particular's there's quite a few checks. It is explicitly the charge of the DCS to keep this very catch-22 from happening by having lots of different enforcement mechanisms and taking the person's finances into account. If you don't have a job and are making a "good faith effort" to get one they won't suspend your license.
brailsafe 3y ago
My impression is that paying child support is a judicial obligation, and whether it's moral or not comes down to how moral the ruling is, and whether or not the obliged payer neglects the payment for an immoral reason. To say it's by definition a moral obligation is to say that the court ruling defines morality, or that there are no valid reasons someone couldn't or shouldn't pay, and that'd be a bit silly, but I assume you're being hyperbolic.
- Arainach 3y ago
  If you have a child, you should pay to support it. This is a moral obligation. It doesn't matter if you didn't intend to have a child, it doesn't matter if you're not currently in a relationship with the other parent.
  - cataphract 3y ago
    Maybe it is a moral obligation, maybe it's not. Depends entirely on the circumstances and in your framework for morality. Maybe paying child support prevents the parent from getting any sort of stability in their life. Maybe the money is squandered. Maybe responsibility should fall on society more generally, and the fact that basic needs of children depend on the financial capacity of the parents is itself immoral. Or the way society organizes itself around money is immoral. Not saying that that agree in general with those statements, but your categorical statement just irked me.
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  > My impression is that paying child support is a judicial obligation, You're wrong. Plenty of people work out child support without having to even go to court specifically for that. Most people do the moral thing and take care of a child they were responsible for bringing into this world.
  - bill_joy_fanboy 3y ago
    As noted above, the father is never responsible for a child being born. The mother is the one who makes that choice.
matt3210 3y ago
Once there is conception, only 1 side of the population is allowed to choose not to take on the consequences of producing child. We shouldn’t take that choice away, but we should extend the decision of taking on the obligations to the otherside.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  No, you made your choice when you jizzed in her bits. Don't want a kid and scared the lady won't abort if you get her pregnant? Don't jizz in her. That's like, part of sex. Don't like that you don't get to raw dog her now? Too fucking bad, man up. Find someone who agrees with your choice to not have a child including having an abortion if necessary or don't jizz in her. She literally cannot get pregnant without you jizzing in her.

lolinder 3y ago

Why does that alter the calculus here? It's still a practice that isn't far removed from debtors prison—the incentives we've set up to pay the debt can, if used, actually prevent the debtor from paying their debts. The question isn't whether the debt ought to be paid, it's whether this method of enforcement is counterproductive.

P_I_Staker 3y ago
There's very few tools available, so license suspensions have been just a general purpose tool to annoy people. In cases like child support, I think it probably does work to some extent. They have a ton of people that they think could pay, but are dragging their feet. Would you prefer send them straight to jail? BTW I take the extreme stance against almost all license sanctions. That said, I have to admit without them, and without the threat of jail, many crimes would have little deterrents. Same story IMO with criminal records and going after people's careers. We would need to develop creative new sanctions, and arguably should anyway; but I see no good ideas.

0xfaded 3y ago

The simple solution is to have the government pay out the child support and make the debt to the government.

nobody9999 3y ago
>The simple solution is to have the government pay out the child support and make the debt to the government. AIUI, a number of US states deal with child support in exactly that way: Payments are made to the responsible state agency and they remit the funds to the custodial parent.

rad_gruchalski 3y ago

“Think of the children.”

Waterluvian 3y ago

Even if the cause is good, the mechanism is a lose-lose. You can’t pay anything if you’ve lost your job because you couldn’t drive to work or are busy in court for driving without a license.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

Nothing says "have money to pay child support" like "don't have money to pay child support because you got fired from your job and have fines for having a suspended license because you were behind on child support." Sorry, but this is insanely counterproductive.

sonotathrowaway 3y ago
You have to view it more like: “how do we hurt poor people and make their lives worse?” And less from a logical perspective.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  Exactly. This is the US we're talking about, and figuring out ways to make poor peoples' lives even worse, and increase the wealth gap as much as possible in order to cause social unrest and eventual societal collapse is an integral part of the country's government. They're bent on self-destruction.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Suspending a Dad's driver's license because they fail to pay child support works out well how? Now that they've lost their job (because no drive, no job) and so they have a real excuse for not paying it?