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I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest gro

by vladms 3y ago

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car".

Ekaros 3y ago
How about one 5 minutes away where I can go with my car? Which I feel like these people are trying to stop...
- eropple 3y ago
  If your single car is rivalrous to several other people's ability to live and work in the urban core, yes, that's a pretty good reason to discourage the car. Massachusetts has park-and-ride, and it's pretty great!
lucumo 3y ago
> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have your job be 5 minutes from your home. How about in 5 years when your job is underpaid or unfulfilling? Is your next job also 5 minutes away? Or do you now have to move? And 5 years after that, when you're laid off? I find that loads of people start out enjoying the car-free experience. And then they get a job in the next town. And/or they get kids, so commute-time takes away from kids-time. Life becomes too busy to spend the extra 30 minutes commuting per day that public transport would cost. Between the trade-off bad job, no time, and car/public transport, the car quickly becomes the best solution. Even if you don't like driving.
- immibis 3y ago
  Sounds like moving should be made easier.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    It's much easier if you rent an apartment and don't own much stuff--which is a trade-off itself.
  - naasking 3y ago
    There's also questions around a partner. Can you only have relationships with people whos career is near your current employer?
    - immibis 3y ago
      Something something dense cities and good public transport. You can get from one side of Berlin to the other - not including suburbs - in half an hour and without needing to park.
      - naasking 3y ago
        It's certainly possible, but more difficult the larger the city. Actually my main concern would be transporting furniture, appliances and the cost of renovations and maintenance. Transport of large items is difficult without cars. Cost of renovations are often many fold higher for dense housing due to greater difficulties with waste disposal and higher transport costs.
  - zbrozek 3y ago
    That would be great, but your forebears locked in a great prop 13 basis decades ago and it would be worth more than your raise to give it up. Or you're in faux social housing in the form of a rent controlled apartment and don't want to give up that subsidy. Or there simply aren't homes to move to that are closer because every municipality in the area has tried to build offices rather than homes since the 1970s. And thus the office park around your new job is itself so big as to require a car to traverse it.
gadders 3y ago
Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.
- underdeserver 3y ago
  This is what a cargo bike is for.
  - gadders 3y ago
    It's mad that you can't see that strapping two kids and 8 bags of shopping into a cargo bike and cycling 10 minutes is far worse than doing the same errand by car.
    - nick_ 3y ago
      Worse how? Worse because we're all used to ignoring the negative externalities of driving everywhere? Worse because our kids are used to acting however they want in the back seat of a car? Worse because we built these horribly isolating daily transport systems where people tint their car windows so we can't even see each other and then yell at each other's driving abilities? The point is that of course it's true that driving is "easier", but it'd be obviously worse in a lot of ways if we didn't build cities the way we did.
      - throwawa14223 3y ago
        > isolating daily transport systems where people tint their car windows so we can't even see each other. You bring up a lot of good points, but why is this a bad thing?
    - broguinn 3y ago
      This hasn't been my experience.
    - KingMob 3y ago

by vladms 3y ago

Ekaros 3y ago

How about one 5 minutes away where I can go with my car? Which I feel like these people are trying to stop...

eropple 3y ago
If your single car is rivalrous to several other people's ability to live and work in the urban core, yes, that's a pretty good reason to discourage the car. Massachusetts has park-and-ride, and it's pretty great!

lucumo 3y ago

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have your job be 5 minutes from your home. How about in 5 years when your job is underpaid or unfulfilling? Is your next job also 5 minutes away? Or do you now have to move? And 5 years after that, when you're laid off? I find that loads of people start out enjoying the car-free experience. And then they get a job in the next town. And/or they get kids, so commute-time takes away from kids-time. Life becomes too busy to spend the extra 30 minutes commuting per day that public transport would cost. Between the trade-off bad job, no time, and car/public transport, the car quickly becomes the best solution. Even if you don't like driving.

immibis 3y ago
Sounds like moving should be made easier.
- ghaff 3y ago
  It's much easier if you rent an apartment and don't own much stuff--which is a trade-off itself.
- naasking 3y ago
  There's also questions around a partner. Can you only have relationships with people whos career is near your current employer?
  - immibis 3y ago
    Something something dense cities and good public transport. You can get from one side of Berlin to the other - not including suburbs - in half an hour and without needing to park.
    - naasking 3y ago
      It's certainly possible, but more difficult the larger the city. Actually my main concern would be transporting furniture, appliances and the cost of renovations and maintenance. Transport of large items is difficult without cars. Cost of renovations are often many fold higher for dense housing due to greater difficulties with waste disposal and higher transport costs.
- zbrozek 3y ago
  That would be great, but your forebears locked in a great prop 13 basis decades ago and it would be worth more than your raise to give it up. Or you're in faux social housing in the form of a rent controlled apartment and don't want to give up that subsidy. Or there simply aren't homes to move to that are closer because every municipality in the area has tried to build offices rather than homes since the 1970s. And thus the office park around your new job is itself so big as to require a car to traverse it.

gadders 3y ago

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

underdeserver 3y ago
This is what a cargo bike is for.
- gadders 3y ago
  It's mad that you can't see that strapping two kids and 8 bags of shopping into a cargo bike and cycling 10 minutes is far worse than doing the same errand by car.
  - nick_ 3y ago
    Worse how? Worse because we're all used to ignoring the negative externalities of driving everywhere? Worse because our kids are used to acting however they want in the back seat of a car? Worse because we built these horribly isolating daily transport systems where people tint their car windows so we can't even see each other and then yell at each other's driving abilities? The point is that of course it's true that driving is "easier", but it'd be obviously worse in a lot of ways if we didn't build cities the way we did.
    - throwawa14223 3y ago
      > isolating daily transport systems where people tint their car windows so we can't even see each other. You bring up a lot of good points, but why is this a bad thing?
  - broguinn 3y ago
    This hasn't been my experience.
  - KingMob 3y ago