9 ms·

Young men and women are drifting apart

68 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

h2odragon 3y ago
https://archive.ph/xSjUP https://archive.ph/xSjUP
brightball 3y ago
Just observing trends I see around messaging, reddit conversations, twitter and policy...this appears to be by design. I can't begin to imagine the games that billionaires and other various cabals play in influencing policy over the years, but from my own observation it seems to be intentional. EDIT: Since this is generating some conversation, I'll add more detail. The article is actually quite good at explaining a lot of the details. My own observations over the last 20 years, I've seen what appears to be consorted interest in breaking up institutions that bring communities together. Public schools are a big one as there are enough differences of opinion on policy, rules, funding approaches, discipline, levels of control from the school itself, to parents, to school boards, to state governments, to the department of education. Public schools used to be a point of pride for communities and currently they are a point of conflict. Churches are another where people in a community would actively come together to learn to be better people, serve their community and serve each other with a higher cause. They also created wonderful environments for youth activities outside of school. Attacks on church communities have been fairly relentless online doing as much as possible to influence people away from them. Legislatures even got in on the action during Covid too.[3] The concussion scare amplification around football in particular in the US did a ton of damage to the sport, despite women's soccer actually being the most dangerous sport for concussions.[1] This had an outsized effect on participation in youth football, which does more to positively influence young men and communities in general than any other sport in the US due to the diversity of participants, body types, different position jobs, roles and the need for everyone to work together as a unit to find success. Some advocates is even trying to ban it outright in California, but the governor shot it down.[2] High school football coaches are also put in great positions to act as both coaches, counselors and father figures for many young men who do not have them. The roster sizes of football teams go a long way towards making this one of the US's greatest community institutions. This continues at the college level until recently and we just saw the greatest coach in the history of the sport, Nick Saban, retire and speak at the capital about why. He used to be able to help prepare young men for success in life. Now all anybody cares about is money. There's more of course, but it's a seemingly intentional trend where the pattern that I see is institutions that bring communities together being attacked or turned into something divisive. 1- https://theconversation.com/do-women-soccer-players-have-more-concussions-this-world-cup-and-beyond-heres-how-to-keep-our-players-safe-208292 https://theconversation.com/do-women-soccer-players-have-mor... 2 - https://apnews.com/article/california-youth-tackle-football-ban-1a375b9d3c332e9ad42603c2871623d6 https://apnews.com/article/california-youth-tackle-football-... 3 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-blocks-ny-enforcing-covid-limits-churches-n1249079 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-blocks-ny...
- kube-system 3y ago
  Are you suggesting that there is some conspiracy that the billionaire class is undertaking to do this intentionally? I think the answer is much more simple. Social media creators and platforms thrive off of engagement, and narratives that prey on people’s insecurities are highly effective at keeping people engaged and glued to their phones rather than having productive social lives.
  - horrysith 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - wenebego 3y ago
    It doesnt need to be a conspiracy, it is a group of very powerful people, with similar interests based on their class. A class who happens to need another class to continue working/making babies to ensure their way of life doesnt collapse.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      That sounds like a great plot line for a story, but why is the more simple answer wrong? Moreover, why would anyone actively and maliciously need to espouse those viewpoints when there are perfectly explainable reasons for those viewpoints to circulate naturally? I know there are many influencers are associated with certain powerful and funded groups, but the majority of people parroting these viewpoints are not related.
      - wenebego 3y ago
        I never said the more simple answer is wrong, im explaining why it doesnt need to be a conspiracy. You are also assuming "actively and maliciously," thats not necesarily the case. Of course the best lie has a grain of truth. The majority of people need to get their words to parrot from somewhere. This is where the powerful and funded groups come in, money gives your message more reach.
  - 3y ago
iam-TJ 3y ago
The symptoms described are different but the end result (polarisation and self-segregation) reads very much like the situation in many (western, and other) countries 100 years ago. Maybe a cycle is starting and this is a sign of the first 'dip' heading back towards the starting condition?
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Could you elaborate? It's not clear to me what situation you're referring to, what the "starting condition" is supposed to mean ...
swader999 3y ago
I sat with a bunch of older teens at lunch the other day that I've known for many years. About equal boys and girls and they only see each other on weekends. Some of them are obviously interested in one another. They all were eating together but intently on their phones. I half seriously offered up money to each of them that could make it through the lunch without the phone in hand. No takers.
- Kinrany 3y ago
  Not enough money (:
  - jajko 3y ago
    Its not a question of money. The underlying issue is much simpler (and harder to fix, this age is usually too late) - kids are hyper-stimulated by virtual worlds and instant social gratification, and then find real world utterly boring, have no clue how social aspects and communication work etc. Broken sad human beings. That's not something one can learn online, only via hard grind with other humans, over decades of continuous improvement. You know, just like we did it. This is IMHO failure of parents - phones and digital media generally have no place till at least 15. Yes, in subpar communities this often means stigma. This doesn't change a nanometer the fact its very harmful, just look at what is being discussed. In better ones this is the norm for exactly this reason. You know how good parenting looks like? Tons, gigatons of time, parents being role models to kids not due to stellar careers and meeting for 60 minutes a day, if at all, burned out. No phones or social media around. Its much much harder for the parents, but raising kids well is the most important achievement parent can achieve. Anytime you see lazy parenting and good parenting results next to each other, the difference is staggering. The advantage well-raised kids will have later in life will be massive.
    - seec 3y ago
      But the reality is that if you want achieve that, at least one of the parents has to sacrifice their career, at least temporarily but that usually means a dead end in the long run. Without that there is just not enough time available in a dual working household, that is even after the kids have been dropped off to other people for most of the day (school, child care and the likes). Historically this is what the women did and unlike the feminist rhetoric likes to pretend there were (and still are) very good reasons why this is the case. Even if you find a woman making enough money and willing to have an at home husband, the risk of divorce will very little recourse for the man are so high it is really an extremely unappealing proposition for most man. That is before talking about the psychological issues the women will display after enough years of being married to a "worthless man". I have experienced/observed that first hand, multiple times, and let me tell you nobody gets out that in good shape. I am at the same time amused and amazed that they are still numerous willing man that are still talking the bullshit coming out of feminists and nowadays, society at large, at face value; even though careful observation would teach you otherwise. Men and women are drifting appart, because while the propaganda would very much like you to believe otherwise, there is a very large value mismatch between man and women. We have built an extensive set of bullshit qualifications and whatnot to pretend otherwise, but reality has this habit of catching up to lies and at some point, most of the interested parties figure out what's what.
snapcaster 3y ago
I think part of this issue is really exacerbated by most politicians being unwilling to acknowledge boys and young men are falling behind and have some real problems that they need help with. People feeling totally ignored and that their problems are invalid is how you get demagogues being elected across the west
- eastbound 3y ago
  If we stopped disregarding men’s needs, wouldn’t they stop competing for resources? Given they’re the only demographic that provides results for their work, wouldn’t that tank the economy? Think about it: What if men didn’t have the risk of being homeless?
  - d0liver 3y ago
    Resource scarcity generally creates economic depressions, not growth. In general, something like a food shortage will cause people to freak out and try to horde whatever is left which causes commerce to start siezing up. This is why whenever it starts to happen the government comes in and injects a bunch of cash into the economy. I have no idea what you mean by "The only demographic that provides results for their work". Even from the perspective of creating competition for desirable outcomes, you want your workforce healthy and educated to be at their most productive. People are obviously going to be more productive when they're able to take care of themselves; they don't just stop caring about their lives once they have their most basic needs met, and even if your needs are being met, you have to continue to work to have your needs met.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    Interesting idea, but this feels like it's falling for the whole "strong men create good times" meme that doesn't really bear out in reality
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  Their economic ranking has to drop unless women are kept out the ranking in the first place. The comments in the article by the men are pretty clearly about them believing women do not deserve to be there. > Her boyfriend asked: “Did you have an affair with your boss?” He is now an ex-boyfriend. and > He thought household chores and child care were women’s work, and that women could not be leaders. and > In their analysis they found that young men were much more likely than young women to agree with statements such as “men should put career first, whereas women should put family first” and “when the economy is bad, female employees should be fired first.”
hugh-avherald 3y ago
That Australia does not exhibit this apparent phenomenon is interesting.
- myth_drannon 3y ago
  The same reason underlying reason why the US has the largest gap. Austalia is not a threat to anyone, The US is a dominant power hence it is the candidate for any psyop attack.
  - seper8 3y ago
    Damn thats actually a very interesting theory
    - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
      I don't think it is a theory. We have now decades of documented reports that Russia is targeting the USA sowing social discord. They don't care about any specific outlook, they will support both extreme right and extreme left as long as there is social conflict and polarization. Kids should be learning about these things at school, they need to recognize attempts at polarizing, creating conflict, and make them perceive other members of their own society as enemies. Both young and older people are vulnerable as these "trolls" (which is not an appropriate name any longer btw) use some real social problems as a starting point and escalate them. And they're extremely successful in part because of social media apps algorithms that effectively act as amplifiers of extreme content.
    - caekislove 3y ago
      "People disagreeing with me is a Russian plot!" is the dumbest conspiracy theory to come out of the 2016 election cycle.
      - ragequittah 3y ago
        Conspiracy theory? I was under the impression it's very well documented. Might not be everything, but you can see how a few million posts from troll farms/bots would sway the narrative to more extreme, and even the real people disagreeing might be doing so because they read a few too many of those posts.
KingOfLechia 3y ago
[flagged]
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  there are no trendy food markets in Warsaw?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
greatpostman 3y ago
A lot of articles on this, never the truth. The truth being most women are chasing the top 10% of men. Not all women, but the internet has exacerbated this phenomenon.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  And men chase the top 10% women. (IME moreso than the other way round)
  - hypertele-Xii 3y ago
    False. Stats from dating apps show that men find most women attractive, while women find most men unattractive.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      That's a way, way more specific statement than the one in the parent.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      not attractive per se. the OKcupid reports found that men are willing to message a very wide variety of women, even ones they don't rank highly in appearance, while women tend to rank most men as unattractive and do not interact with them. put more bluntly, dudes will try to bang 3's but hope for 9's.
  - seper8 3y ago
    Statistically this is proven false. Find the OKCupid research on women rating men (and the other way around) and you'll find that women do indeed rate only the top percentages of men (afaik top 20% or so) as above average. Wheres men rating women is more of a normal distribution.
    - seec 3y ago
      It's almost as if there is something in a men that makes him not completely delusional and less susceptible to emotional bullshit rationalisation. Some day we, as a society, will rediscover the truth about women. One should note, that nature at large do not really forget this reality, and there is a lot to learn in observing the female/male behavior in animals.
gryzzly 3y ago
Is there anything that social media didn't corrupt? Which will be the first state to ban always-on smartphones for kids under 18? Is there even other way to deal with this? Would banning only hurt?
horrysith 3y ago
Using a fictitious scale that uses terms like “left” and “right,” the economist has constructed a fantastical narrative to goad their readers into obedience, sabotaging them from ever considering any other possible scenario than the one presented. Many such cases.
- NietTim 3y ago
  It's a weird article for sure. Written for an american audience I presume, otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to point out that "many european elections offer a wide array of parties" It's a shame really, could have been a more interesting article if it didn't try to make things black and white.
- nor-and-or-not 3y ago
  So, you disagree that the right and conservatives cling on to the older concepts, hierarchies, as well as racial and patriarchal structures of society, not because they have been proven as better, but because they had more control over women and people in general. This is described as reactionary, a core element of the right; whereas the left wants societal progress, despite or because it breaks up old hierarchies and crusty structures, and gives people equal chances, empowers them through education, wants to set them free through collective ownership. The whole political orientation is a scale, although not of two dimensions, but more, for example if we consider fiscal and corporate views. But the terms left and right are definitely a valid spectrum and description of social progressivism vs. social conservativeness.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Especially when they consider "liberal = left". No, most liberals are not leftist. It's also unclear what they mean by "right/conservative" too.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    liberal largely does mean left in todays American political environment. Words mean what people think they mean, definitions change. Liberal certainly is completely disconnected from its original meaning today.
vouaobrasil 3y ago
Not surprising, and the article completely ignores a more systemic cause: technology, especially advanced technology like computers and AI, is making people more and more independent in general. People simply need each other less and less. Yes, we still need each other for love and companionship, but even that is being mitigated somewhat by AI boyfriends and girlfriends, and AI therapists. True, AI right now cannot replace a human and maybe it never will, but it does lessen the need here and there. It piles upon a long tradition of replacing human beings. And when men and women don't need each other as much in particular, they will more likely see their differences as annoyances rather than strengths. Yes, perhaps equality, feminism, and other movements might have changed some things. And I think equality is a great thing. But what we have to put into context is that equality movements today are not about equality in general, but about making everyone has an equal an opportunity as possible in furthering technology. Personally, I think we have long passed the point of DIMINISHING RETURNS in technology. Is 5G really going to help us more than 4G or 3G, except to feed us more of the mental drug of media to distract us from the real problems of the world? Will AI do much more than reduce the sense of value people have from their creative jobs? The real problem is that technologists happily push advanced tech forward for the sake of their intellectual amusement and profit, and the only measure of value is short-term profit. Ordinary people simply play the prisoner's dilemma to keep up, and as a result, they have to function as cogs in a machine, divorced from the need from other human beings in a community. Is it no wonder that the institution of men and women getting together to help each other has taken a back seat to a new and vicious battle to the top of the meaninglessness of global, capitalistic society? Yes, older societies may not have been perfect. But the new alternative is another step in the wrong direction.
antisthenes 3y ago
Article flagged within 10 minutes. Can't have anything acknowledging that men have issues also. Who is pushing these narratives?
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  The problem is that "men's problems" not only is not where the money is, it often brings up discussions and ideas that actively go against the prevailing politics. Any person has a short-term gain to be had in disassociating themselves with this topic.
  - vouaobrasil 3y ago
    BTW, it would be great to have a rational discussion instead of intense downvoting on everything statement that doesn't fit another person's political ideology. Rather cowardly...
- bell-cot 3y ago
  Looking at the responses here (so far) - I'd say the problem (with this topic on HN) is too many people with both heavy axes to grind, and instincts to treat "men" and "women" as simplistic monoliths. You could get similarly poor discussion on other topics if people assumed that all c code is hopelessly insecure, and that all PHP code was written by a clueless noob in 1998, and that WordPress had no legit use cases, and ...
hypertele-Xii 3y ago
If by "drifting apart" you mean feminists screaming "kill all men!" at rallies, young women laughing "we don't need men for anything" at interviews, and young men observing what happens to older men in divorce court, and seeing the stats revealing how utterly disinterested and incapable modern women are of pair bonding anymore. Suicides at up 37% in 20 years, 80% male. 90% of women are hopelessly addicted to hormonal birth control, stunting their sexual maturity. Single motherhood and sexually transmitted diseases are on the rise. Women keep voting for more taxes and foreign handouts while doing none of the difficult labor to pay for it, and men, who are being told they are useless and repulsive are left wondering what incentive they have to work nor date at all. Birth rates are plummeting, fertility has halved in a few decades, antidepressant prescriptions skyrocketing. This is the end of western civilization as we know it. An entire generation of young people - currently our most scarce resource - are being lost to women literally rebelling against their own nature, not caring about being wives nor mothers, shouting "oppressive patriarchy!" at every opportunity, all the while out clubbing and giving premarital sex for free to a few select men, and producing pornography to fund irresponsible lifestyles. I've had a front row seat watching this unfold throughout the course of my entire life, which began with my mother destroying my family and blaming my dad for it, while she herself made my growing up life a living hell. My dad's second woman cheated and left, so my oldest sibling is in the same boat. I watched my mom blow up her second marriage as well. Every single woman I've dated has been clinically insane, cheating, and promiscuous beyond belief - first I thought I might be the problem, but then I saw the stats. It's everyone's problem, and women aren't going to fix it. We're on a fast track to extinction, accelerating. Women are out of control. They can't control themselves, and refuse to be controlled by any man, encouraging each other on social media to abandon boyfriends, divorce husbands, get cosmetic surgery, and ultimately die alone, unloved, and medicated out of their gourd. This is a cosmic war, and Satan is winning.
- supertimor 3y ago
  This entire tirade is unhinged and filled with insane claims and trash science. > giving premarital sex for free to a few select men Is your problem with this that women are having sex? Or that they aren’t prostituting themselves? Or perhaps the problem that they aren’t having sex “with you”? > Women are out of control. They can't control themselves, and refuse to be controlled by any man Control themselves from what exactly? The examples you give are breaking up with/divorcing a spouse, getting cosmetic surgery and dying alone. The biggest problem you have with women, it seems, is that women are fully autonomous human beings. > Every single woman I've dated has been clinically insane, cheating, and promiscuous beyond belief - first I thought I might be the problem, but then I saw the stats. It's everyone's problem, and women aren't going to fix it. Stats? What stats? > 90% of women are hopelessly addicted to hormonal birth control, stunting their sexual maturity. Literally not possible. Are these the stats that you keep talking about? > first I thought I might be the problem Narrator: It’s you.
nor-and-or-not 3y ago
The cynic in me thinks that some young men are disappointed that the patriarchy is falling, partly because (young) women are more empowered and self-determined, and they no longer own women. Which is a good thing.
- jprete 3y ago
  I don't think that's a fair interpretation of the situation at all.
  - nor-and-or-not 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
apantel 3y ago
Unrelated to the article: look at all of the reams of crap in the Economist’s cookie pop-up / disclaimer. Especially all of the 3rd parties they share your data with: Microsoft, Facebook, Adobe, etc… “Together with our 168 trusted partners…” It’s an abomination.
- gryzzly 3y ago
  are there exceptions to this?
seper8 3y ago
When young men are falling behind on basically every metric, not hard to understand they feel resentment. Whatevers happening currently isn't working for most of us. Career wise, dating wise, education wise... And for women the progress they have made in the recent history, at least, feels like it has been working for them. So of course they vote for more of the same.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  Well, it seems that equality movements have become near inseparable with shaming the generic man, and have gone beyond equality into tribalism. And this is true not just for gender "equality" either. All these movements, while originating from a place of good, have essentially become a political means to form cliques to grab a large piece of the capitalistic pie, where in reality we should be looking at how to take down traditional capitalism for the greater good for all.
- bell-cot 3y ago
  > ...falling behind on basically every metric... [emphasis mine] I'm thinking that some of the exceptions - domestic violence, workplace sexual harassment, feeling safe in public places, access to reproductive health care, etc. - are both very serious, and intense emotional button-pushers. Try asking a few good fathers of younger daughters for their own PoV on that kinda stuff? Bigger picture - both the press and social media seem intent on casting the whole problem as a one-dimensional battle of the sexes. If a problem this complex can't be cast at least as "you want X, Y, and Z; they want U, V, and W" - then I'd figure that the folks controlling the conversation really want an endless angry fight and dystopian future.
  - seper8 3y ago
    You just mentioned a bunch of areas on which women have (fortunately) made incredible progress in the past few decades. Some of these achieved mostly by voting left-leaning. So it makes sense to me that women want to keep voting that way as they have seen progress.
    - 3y ago
baerrie 3y ago
I have a pet theory that we are entering the “beautiful ones” phase of the unimpeded growth of humanity. Social media has accelerated a form of vanity that eclipses other needs such as survival and reproduction. That would lead to less interest in suitable mates. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
nojvek 3y ago
Not sure why article is flagged. It’s well written. I have noticed the red/blue lines amplify along the gender lines. The dating market for young men is skewed in the age of Tinder. A few men get most of the dates, while the rest get nothing. For women, the competition increases and they may find they get what they want but not what they need. So both sides are unhappy in the social media - instant gratification age.

68 points by sohkamyung 3y ago

https://archive.ph/xSjUP https://archive.ph/xSjUP

Just observing trends I see around messaging, reddit conversations, twitter and policy...this appears to be by design. I can't begin to imagine the games that billionaires and other various cabals play in influencing policy over the years, but from my own observation it seems to be intentional. EDIT: Since this is generating some conversation, I'll add more detail. The article is actually quite good at explaining a lot of the details. My own observations over the last 20 years, I've seen what appears to be consorted interest in breaking up institutions that bring communities together. Public schools are a big one as there are enough differences of opinion on policy, rules, funding approaches, discipline, levels of control from the school itself, to parents, to school boards, to state governments, to the department of education. Public schools used to be a point of pride for communities and currently they are a point of conflict. Churches are another where people in a community would actively come together to learn to be better people, serve their community and serve each other with a higher cause. They also created wonderful environments for youth activities outside of school. Attacks on church communities have been fairly relentless online doing as much as possible to influence people away from them. Legislatures even got in on the action during Covid too.[3] The concussion scare amplification around football in particular in the US did a ton of damage to the sport, despite women's soccer actually being the most dangerous sport for concussions.[1] This had an outsized effect on participation in youth football, which does more to positively influence young men and communities in general than any other sport in the US due to the diversity of participants, body types, different position jobs, roles and the need for everyone to work together as a unit to find success. Some advocates is even trying to ban it outright in California, but the governor shot it down.[2] High school football coaches are also put in great positions to act as both coaches, counselors and father figures for many young men who do not have them. The roster sizes of football teams go a long way towards making this one of the US's greatest community institutions. This continues at the college level until recently and we just saw the greatest coach in the history of the sport, Nick Saban, retire and speak at the capital about why. He used to be able to help prepare young men for success in life. Now all anybody cares about is money. There's more of course, but it's a seemingly intentional trend where the pattern that I see is institutions that bring communities together being attacked or turned into something divisive. 1- https://theconversation.com/do-women-soccer-players-have-more-concussions-this-world-cup-and-beyond-heres-how-to-keep-our-players-safe-208292 https://theconversation.com/do-women-soccer-players-have-mor... 2 - https://apnews.com/article/california-youth-tackle-football-ban-1a375b9d3c332e9ad42603c2871623d6 https://apnews.com/article/california-youth-tackle-football-... 3 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-blocks-ny-enforcing-covid-limits-churches-n1249079 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/supreme-court-blocks-ny...

kube-system 3y ago
Are you suggesting that there is some conspiracy that the billionaire class is undertaking to do this intentionally? I think the answer is much more simple. Social media creators and platforms thrive off of engagement, and narratives that prey on people’s insecurities are highly effective at keeping people engaged and glued to their phones rather than having productive social lives.
- horrysith 3y ago
  [flagged]
- wenebego 3y ago
  It doesnt need to be a conspiracy, it is a group of very powerful people, with similar interests based on their class. A class who happens to need another class to continue working/making babies to ensure their way of life doesnt collapse.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    That sounds like a great plot line for a story, but why is the more simple answer wrong? Moreover, why would anyone actively and maliciously need to espouse those viewpoints when there are perfectly explainable reasons for those viewpoints to circulate naturally? I know there are many influencers are associated with certain powerful and funded groups, but the majority of people parroting these viewpoints are not related.
    - wenebego 3y ago
      I never said the more simple answer is wrong, im explaining why it doesnt need to be a conspiracy. You are also assuming "actively and maliciously," thats not necesarily the case. Of course the best lie has a grain of truth. The majority of people need to get their words to parrot from somewhere. This is where the powerful and funded groups come in, money gives your message more reach.
- 3y ago

iam-TJ 3y ago

The symptoms described are different but the end result (polarisation and self-segregation) reads very much like the situation in many (western, and other) countries 100 years ago. Maybe a cycle is starting and this is a sign of the first 'dip' heading back towards the starting condition?

The_Colonel 3y ago
Could you elaborate? It's not clear to me what situation you're referring to, what the "starting condition" is supposed to mean ...

swader999 3y ago

I sat with a bunch of older teens at lunch the other day that I've known for many years. About equal boys and girls and they only see each other on weekends. Some of them are obviously interested in one another. They all were eating together but intently on their phones. I half seriously offered up money to each of them that could make it through the lunch without the phone in hand. No takers.

Kinrany 3y ago
Not enough money (:
- jajko 3y ago
  Its not a question of money. The underlying issue is much simpler (and harder to fix, this age is usually too late) - kids are hyper-stimulated by virtual worlds and instant social gratification, and then find real world utterly boring, have no clue how social aspects and communication work etc. Broken sad human beings. That's not something one can learn online, only via hard grind with other humans, over decades of continuous improvement. You know, just like we did it. This is IMHO failure of parents - phones and digital media generally have no place till at least 15. Yes, in subpar communities this often means stigma. This doesn't change a nanometer the fact its very harmful, just look at what is being discussed. In better ones this is the norm for exactly this reason. You know how good parenting looks like? Tons, gigatons of time, parents being role models to kids not due to stellar careers and meeting for 60 minutes a day, if at all, burned out. No phones or social media around. Its much much harder for the parents, but raising kids well is the most important achievement parent can achieve. Anytime you see lazy parenting and good parenting results next to each other, the difference is staggering. The advantage well-raised kids will have later in life will be massive.
  - seec 3y ago
    But the reality is that if you want achieve that, at least one of the parents has to sacrifice their career, at least temporarily but that usually means a dead end in the long run. Without that there is just not enough time available in a dual working household, that is even after the kids have been dropped off to other people for most of the day (school, child care and the likes). Historically this is what the women did and unlike the feminist rhetoric likes to pretend there were (and still are) very good reasons why this is the case. Even if you find a woman making enough money and willing to have an at home husband, the risk of divorce will very little recourse for the man are so high it is really an extremely unappealing proposition for most man. That is before talking about the psychological issues the women will display after enough years of being married to a "worthless man". I have experienced/observed that first hand, multiple times, and let me tell you nobody gets out that in good shape. I am at the same time amused and amazed that they are still numerous willing man that are still talking the bullshit coming out of feminists and nowadays, society at large, at face value; even though careful observation would teach you otherwise. Men and women are drifting appart, because while the propaganda would very much like you to believe otherwise, there is a very large value mismatch between man and women. We have built an extensive set of bullshit qualifications and whatnot to pretend otherwise, but reality has this habit of catching up to lies and at some point, most of the interested parties figure out what's what.

snapcaster 3y ago

I think part of this issue is really exacerbated by most politicians being unwilling to acknowledge boys and young men are falling behind and have some real problems that they need help with. People feeling totally ignored and that their problems are invalid is how you get demagogues being elected across the west

eastbound 3y ago
If we stopped disregarding men’s needs, wouldn’t they stop competing for resources? Given they’re the only demographic that provides results for their work, wouldn’t that tank the economy? Think about it: What if men didn’t have the risk of being homeless?
- d0liver 3y ago
  Resource scarcity generally creates economic depressions, not growth. In general, something like a food shortage will cause people to freak out and try to horde whatever is left which causes commerce to start siezing up. This is why whenever it starts to happen the government comes in and injects a bunch of cash into the economy. I have no idea what you mean by "The only demographic that provides results for their work". Even from the perspective of creating competition for desirable outcomes, you want your workforce healthy and educated to be at their most productive. People are obviously going to be more productive when they're able to take care of themselves; they don't just stop caring about their lives once they have their most basic needs met, and even if your needs are being met, you have to continue to work to have your needs met.
- snapcaster 3y ago
  Interesting idea, but this feels like it's falling for the whole "strong men create good times" meme that doesn't really bear out in reality
MattGaiser 3y ago
Their economic ranking has to drop unless women are kept out the ranking in the first place. The comments in the article by the men are pretty clearly about them believing women do not deserve to be there. > Her boyfriend asked: “Did you have an affair with your boss?” He is now an ex-boyfriend. and > He thought household chores and child care were women’s work, and that women could not be leaders. and > In their analysis they found that young men were much more likely than young women to agree with statements such as “men should put career first, whereas women should put family first” and “when the economy is bad, female employees should be fired first.”

hugh-avherald 3y ago

That Australia does not exhibit this apparent phenomenon is interesting.

myth_drannon 3y ago
The same reason underlying reason why the US has the largest gap. Austalia is not a threat to anyone, The US is a dominant power hence it is the candidate for any psyop attack.
- seper8 3y ago
  Damn thats actually a very interesting theory
  - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
    I don't think it is a theory. We have now decades of documented reports that Russia is targeting the USA sowing social discord. They don't care about any specific outlook, they will support both extreme right and extreme left as long as there is social conflict and polarization. Kids should be learning about these things at school, they need to recognize attempts at polarizing, creating conflict, and make them perceive other members of their own society as enemies. Both young and older people are vulnerable as these "trolls" (which is not an appropriate name any longer btw) use some real social problems as a starting point and escalate them. And they're extremely successful in part because of social media apps algorithms that effectively act as amplifiers of extreme content.
  - caekislove 3y ago
    "People disagreeing with me is a Russian plot!" is the dumbest conspiracy theory to come out of the 2016 election cycle.
    - ragequittah 3y ago
      Conspiracy theory? I was under the impression it's very well documented. Might not be everything, but you can see how a few million posts from troll farms/bots would sway the narrative to more extreme, and even the real people disagreeing might be doing so because they read a few too many of those posts.

KingOfLechia 3y ago

[flagged]

red-iron-pine 3y ago
there are no trendy food markets in Warsaw?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

greatpostman 3y ago

A lot of articles on this, never the truth. The truth being most women are chasing the top 10% of men. Not all women, but the internet has exacerbated this phenomenon.

The_Colonel 3y ago
And men chase the top 10% women. (IME moreso than the other way round)
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  False. Stats from dating apps show that men find most women attractive, while women find most men unattractive.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    That's a way, way more specific statement than the one in the parent.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    not attractive per se. the OKcupid reports found that men are willing to message a very wide variety of women, even ones they don't rank highly in appearance, while women tend to rank most men as unattractive and do not interact with them. put more bluntly, dudes will try to bang 3's but hope for 9's.
- seper8 3y ago
  Statistically this is proven false. Find the OKCupid research on women rating men (and the other way around) and you'll find that women do indeed rate only the top percentages of men (afaik top 20% or so) as above average. Wheres men rating women is more of a normal distribution.
  - seec 3y ago
    It's almost as if there is something in a men that makes him not completely delusional and less susceptible to emotional bullshit rationalisation. Some day we, as a society, will rediscover the truth about women. One should note, that nature at large do not really forget this reality, and there is a lot to learn in observing the female/male behavior in animals.

gryzzly 3y ago

Is there anything that social media didn't corrupt? Which will be the first state to ban always-on smartphones for kids under 18? Is there even other way to deal with this? Would banning only hurt?

horrysith 3y ago

Using a fictitious scale that uses terms like “left” and “right,” the economist has constructed a fantastical narrative to goad their readers into obedience, sabotaging them from ever considering any other possible scenario than the one presented. Many such cases.

NietTim 3y ago
It's a weird article for sure. Written for an american audience I presume, otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to point out that "many european elections offer a wide array of parties" It's a shame really, could have been a more interesting article if it didn't try to make things black and white.
nor-and-or-not 3y ago
So, you disagree that the right and conservatives cling on to the older concepts, hierarchies, as well as racial and patriarchal structures of society, not because they have been proven as better, but because they had more control over women and people in general. This is described as reactionary, a core element of the right; whereas the left wants societal progress, despite or because it breaks up old hierarchies and crusty structures, and gives people equal chances, empowers them through education, wants to set them free through collective ownership. The whole political orientation is a scale, although not of two dimensions, but more, for example if we consider fiscal and corporate views. But the terms left and right are definitely a valid spectrum and description of social progressivism vs. social conservativeness.
r00fus 3y ago
Especially when they consider "liberal = left". No, most liberals are not leftist. It's also unclear what they mean by "right/conservative" too.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  liberal largely does mean left in todays American political environment. Words mean what people think they mean, definitions change. Liberal certainly is completely disconnected from its original meaning today.

vouaobrasil 3y ago

Not surprising, and the article completely ignores a more systemic cause: technology, especially advanced technology like computers and AI, is making people more and more independent in general. People simply need each other less and less. Yes, we still need each other for love and companionship, but even that is being mitigated somewhat by AI boyfriends and girlfriends, and AI therapists. True, AI right now cannot replace a human and maybe it never will, but it does lessen the need here and there. It piles upon a long tradition of replacing human beings. And when men and women don't need each other as much in particular, they will more likely see their differences as annoyances rather than strengths. Yes, perhaps equality, feminism, and other movements might have changed some things. And I think equality is a great thing. But what we have to put into context is that equality movements today are not about equality in general, but about making everyone has an equal an opportunity as possible in furthering technology. Personally, I think we have long passed the point of DIMINISHING RETURNS in technology. Is 5G really going to help us more than 4G or 3G, except to feed us more of the mental drug of media to distract us from the real problems of the world? Will AI do much more than reduce the sense of value people have from their creative jobs? The real problem is that technologists happily push advanced tech forward for the sake of their intellectual amusement and profit, and the only measure of value is short-term profit. Ordinary people simply play the prisoner's dilemma to keep up, and as a result, they have to function as cogs in a machine, divorced from the need from other human beings in a community. Is it no wonder that the institution of men and women getting together to help each other has taken a back seat to a new and vicious battle to the top of the meaninglessness of global, capitalistic society? Yes, older societies may not have been perfect. But the new alternative is another step in the wrong direction.

antisthenes 3y ago

Article flagged within 10 minutes. Can't have anything acknowledging that men have issues also. Who is pushing these narratives?

vouaobrasil 3y ago
The problem is that "men's problems" not only is not where the money is, it often brings up discussions and ideas that actively go against the prevailing politics. Any person has a short-term gain to be had in disassociating themselves with this topic.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  BTW, it would be great to have a rational discussion instead of intense downvoting on everything statement that doesn't fit another person's political ideology. Rather cowardly...
bell-cot 3y ago
Looking at the responses here (so far) - I'd say the problem (with this topic on HN) is too many people with both heavy axes to grind, and instincts to treat "men" and "women" as simplistic monoliths. You could get similarly poor discussion on other topics if people assumed that all c code is hopelessly insecure, and that all PHP code was written by a clueless noob in 1998, and that WordPress had no legit use cases, and ...

hypertele-Xii 3y ago

If by "drifting apart" you mean feminists screaming "kill all men!" at rallies, young women laughing "we don't need men for anything" at interviews, and young men observing what happens to older men in divorce court, and seeing the stats revealing how utterly disinterested and incapable modern women are of pair bonding anymore. Suicides at up 37% in 20 years, 80% male. 90% of women are hopelessly addicted to hormonal birth control, stunting their sexual maturity. Single motherhood and sexually transmitted diseases are on the rise. Women keep voting for more taxes and foreign handouts while doing none of the difficult labor to pay for it, and men, who are being told they are useless and repulsive are left wondering what incentive they have to work nor date at all. Birth rates are plummeting, fertility has halved in a few decades, antidepressant prescriptions skyrocketing. This is the end of western civilization as we know it. An entire generation of young people - currently our most scarce resource - are being lost to women literally rebelling against their own nature, not caring about being wives nor mothers, shouting "oppressive patriarchy!" at every opportunity, all the while out clubbing and giving premarital sex for free to a few select men, and producing pornography to fund irresponsible lifestyles. I've had a front row seat watching this unfold throughout the course of my entire life, which began with my mother destroying my family and blaming my dad for it, while she herself made my growing up life a living hell. My dad's second woman cheated and left, so my oldest sibling is in the same boat. I watched my mom blow up her second marriage as well. Every single woman I've dated has been clinically insane, cheating, and promiscuous beyond belief - first I thought I might be the problem, but then I saw the stats. It's everyone's problem, and women aren't going to fix it. We're on a fast track to extinction, accelerating. Women are out of control. They can't control themselves, and refuse to be controlled by any man, encouraging each other on social media to abandon boyfriends, divorce husbands, get cosmetic surgery, and ultimately die alone, unloved, and medicated out of their gourd. This is a cosmic war, and Satan is winning.

supertimor 3y ago
This entire tirade is unhinged and filled with insane claims and trash science. > giving premarital sex for free to a few select men Is your problem with this that women are having sex? Or that they aren’t prostituting themselves? Or perhaps the problem that they aren’t having sex “with you”? > Women are out of control. They can't control themselves, and refuse to be controlled by any man Control themselves from what exactly? The examples you give are breaking up with/divorcing a spouse, getting cosmetic surgery and dying alone. The biggest problem you have with women, it seems, is that women are fully autonomous human beings. > Every single woman I've dated has been clinically insane, cheating, and promiscuous beyond belief - first I thought I might be the problem, but then I saw the stats. It's everyone's problem, and women aren't going to fix it. Stats? What stats? > 90% of women are hopelessly addicted to hormonal birth control, stunting their sexual maturity. Literally not possible. Are these the stats that you keep talking about? > first I thought I might be the problem Narrator: It’s you.

nor-and-or-not 3y ago

The cynic in me thinks that some young men are disappointed that the patriarchy is falling, partly because (young) women are more empowered and self-determined, and they no longer own women. Which is a good thing.

jprete 3y ago
I don't think that's a fair interpretation of the situation at all.
- nor-and-or-not 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

apantel 3y ago

Unrelated to the article: look at all of the reams of crap in the Economist’s cookie pop-up / disclaimer. Especially all of the 3rd parties they share your data with: Microsoft, Facebook, Adobe, etc… “Together with our 168 trusted partners…” It’s an abomination.

gryzzly 3y ago
are there exceptions to this?

seper8 3y ago

When young men are falling behind on basically every metric, not hard to understand they feel resentment. Whatevers happening currently isn't working for most of us. Career wise, dating wise, education wise... And for women the progress they have made in the recent history, at least, feels like it has been working for them. So of course they vote for more of the same.

vouaobrasil 3y ago
Well, it seems that equality movements have become near inseparable with shaming the generic man, and have gone beyond equality into tribalism. And this is true not just for gender "equality" either. All these movements, while originating from a place of good, have essentially become a political means to form cliques to grab a large piece of the capitalistic pie, where in reality we should be looking at how to take down traditional capitalism for the greater good for all.
bell-cot 3y ago
> ...falling behind on basically every metric... [emphasis mine] I'm thinking that some of the exceptions - domestic violence, workplace sexual harassment, feeling safe in public places, access to reproductive health care, etc. - are both very serious, and intense emotional button-pushers. Try asking a few good fathers of younger daughters for their own PoV on that kinda stuff? Bigger picture - both the press and social media seem intent on casting the whole problem as a one-dimensional battle of the sexes. If a problem this complex can't be cast at least as "you want X, Y, and Z; they want U, V, and W" - then I'd figure that the folks controlling the conversation really want an endless angry fight and dystopian future.
- seper8 3y ago
  You just mentioned a bunch of areas on which women have (fortunately) made incredible progress in the past few decades. Some of these achieved mostly by voting left-leaning. So it makes sense to me that women want to keep voting that way as they have seen progress.
  - 3y ago

baerrie 3y ago

I have a pet theory that we are entering the “beautiful ones” phase of the unimpeded growth of humanity. Social media has accelerated a form of vanity that eclipses other needs such as survival and reproduction. That would lead to less interest in suitable mates. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...

nojvek 3y ago

Not sure why article is flagged. It’s well written. I have noticed the red/blue lines amplify along the gender lines. The dating market for young men is skewed in the age of Tinder. A few men get most of the dates, while the rest get nothing. For women, the competition increases and they may find they get what they want but not what they need. So both sides are unhappy in the social media - instant gratification age.