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Tell Congress: Stop the TikTok Ban. Instead, Protect Our Data No Matter Who
- testfrequency 3y agoI’m genuinely surprised by the EFF response, it feels misguided and they are conflating two separate issues
- nicce 3y agoAre you saying that data should not be protected? Separate issue might be the content manipulation and censorship on TikTok, but "privacy issue" is the biggest argument so far publicly. If you are going to the privacy and data leak argument, then you should apply that for every application out there.
- sangnoir 3y agoThe EFF is correct and brings to light the hypocrisy of fighting companies rather than specific harmful activities, because making those activities illegal will have a very large blast radius and will destroy a lot of "value" in American companies that partake in those very profitable activities. I see it on HN too, people hate on soft targets like Facebook, but their stock options/RSUs/portfolios depend on the respective companies (or sales funnels) depend on the same problematic behaviors. That's how we get "Google ads are evil, but Apple ads are fine. They do the same things, but Apple means well." TikTok is the softest of targets as it's not even American.
- graeme 3y agoThis completely ignores propaganda concerns. Having a prominent media platform under the control of a hostile government is a serious threat. If Nazi Germany or the USSR had gotten control of a large media conglomerate you'd expect a reaction. Divesting Tiktok from China isn't a ban, and it's disingenuous to frame it as such while also ignoring the major problem with such control.
- cbsmith 3y agoOwnership isn't the only way to control a social media platform. It is, admittedly, a simpler way.
- mordae 3y agoThis. US is readying to defend Taiwan. Government is obviously going to make sure no significant channels exist to go around its own propaganda. Especially if the channel has ties to China.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- justrealist 3y agoDon't try to make it a "both sides" issue. It's not.
- mordae 3y agoI am not. But it's still something any reasonable state would do when facing the possibility of war.
- GeoAtreides 3y agoDon't try to reduce a complex issue to a thought stopping cliche. (I should obviously take my own advice and add something more substantial to this comment, but the idea that are multiple sides in an war, with different goals, tactics, and with different stakes, is so trivial and self-evident that I'm feeling very silly commenting on it)
- readams 3y agoSpying and data collection isn't remotely the main concern. The main concern is control over how Americans consume information. See e.g. https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing... "The conclusions of our research are clear: Whether content is promoted or muted onTikTok appears to depend on whether it is aligned or opposed to the interests of the Chinese Government. As the summary data graph below illustrates, the percentages of TikTok posts out of Instagram posts are consistently range-bound for general political and pop-culture topics, but completely out-of-bounds for topics sensitive to the Chinese Government." It's not even theoretical. This is happening now.
- justrealist 3y agoIt's honestly incredibly lucky for us that the Chinese propagandists couldn't resist pulling the bias trigger over issues that don't really matter. Talk about keeping your powder dry. They could easily have pretended TikTok was a neutral actor until they needed to sway US opinion over Taiwan (or something bigger). Instead they made the control obvious on a dozen issues and are going to get cut off way earlier.
- alephnerd 3y agoHaving travelled across Asia, TikTok has definetly played a major role in helping build Chinese soft power. Vietnam for example is fairly anti-China due to memories of the Sino-Vietnamese War, the PRC's support of the Khmer Rouge (edit: spelling), and the South China Sea dispute, but in my experience views among the younger generation have started to trend towards a Chinese view of the world because of TikTok. South Korea and Japan still have massive soft power in the region, yet products like TikTok are definetly undermining it.
- SR2Z 3y agoIt's also been a huge part of why Gen Z skews extremely anti-Israel, IMO. There is a _massive_ anecdotal gap between TikTok users and people of the same age who avoid it in my experience. (not to say that criticism of Israel's handling of the war isn't valid, of course)
- Simulacra 3y agoThe title is inaccurate. This is not a ban on TikTok, it is legislation requiring TikTok to be sold, so that is not owned by the Chinese communist government. This has been discussed several times before here, yet people still think it's a ban. That's wrong.
- nimbius 3y agoit is a defacto attempt to ban it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Foreign_Adversary_Controlled_Applications_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Americans_from_Fore... If ByteDance calls Washingtons bluff --which they very likely will-- it sets the stage for a first amendment case at the supreme court as per Citizens United in 2010, corporate personhood is very much a thing in the US.
- strangattractor 3y agoThey will call Washington's bluff because the Chinese Government will tell them to do so. It will not be out of a sense of protecting free speech or desire for the public good - quite the opposite. People seem to forget how Jack Ma virtually disappeared when he bucked the party's orders. Almost half of their users are from of the US. Surely a decentralized version of TikTok can be made to replace them.
- timeon 3y ago> It will not be out of a sense of protecting free speech or desire for the public good Arguing out of principle for 'free speech' is often used to defend literal Nazis even. Why couldn't they use it? Especially when corporations are people there.
- strangattractor 3y agoI agree - It is simply my opinion that regardless of the stated public stance the underlying reasons for whatever decision they make will be dictated by the Chinese Government. There is a scene from "Cool Hand Luke" where the Warden instructs Luke "You gonna get your mind right." I think Jack Ma got his mind right. Navalny never quite got his mind right.
- christkv 3y agoHow about both EFF
- leotravis10 3y agoAnd potentially solidify Facebook/Meta's monopoly on social media in the process? Plus not to mention that Meta is lobbying very hard for a ban so people can switch to Reels. You surely don't want that do you? The US needs to pass a strong privacy bill instead of this unconsititional crap.
- omginternets 3y agoFor once I disagree with the EFF. This is a national sovereignty issue masquerading as a freedom issue.
- r00fus 3y agoIn principle I agree with you, in practice it seems the only reason TikTok legislation is passing the House is because Israel thinks everyone on TikTok hates them (reality - most people in the US disagree with genocide).
- alephnerd 3y agoTikTok's change in ownership has been discussed for years. The current action occured when TikTok pushed users to call Congressional Members through anti-patterns within the app [0] Not everything is about Israel-Palestine smh. [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/tiktok-phone-calls-congress.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/tiktok-phone-cal...
- cj 3y agoThe TikTok ban issue dates back to at least 2020. I vividly recall because I owned a ton of Fastly stock which cratered when the former administration was trying to ban TikTok, leading ByteDance to move away from Fastly as their CDN. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bytedance-pulls-most-tiktok-traffic-214127487.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bytedance-pulls-most-tiktok-t...
- alephnerd 3y agoYep. There are a lot of low effort commenters on HN now. If you take a look at most of the commenters talking about Israel or Palestine on this thread, their creation date appears to be around 2020-2022.
- op00to 3y agounfortunately this particular commenter seems to have joined in 2011. not saying you're wrong about low effort commenters.
- vundercind 3y agoDO ban TikTok (and by “ban” we evidently mean “force a change in ownership of”). China imposes ownership restrictions when our companies do business there. We should do the same. ALSO please do outlaw private dragnet spying no matter which company is doing it, yes.
- salawat 3y agoNever happen. ALSO please do outlaw private dragnet spying no matter which company is doing it, yes. Intelligence and National Security sectors benefit way too much from it.
- vundercind 3y agoHey, take it up with the EFF. I just think we should go ahead and do the other, separately-good and basically unrelated thing in the meantime.
- strangattractor 3y ago+1
- CommanderData 3y agoThe Israel-Palestine conflict is playing a part in this. Israel has had a hard time controlling the narrative on Tiktok as organic support has stemmed from videos from Gaza. Especially amoung teens. Israel has even gone to lengths to purchase advertisement slots on major platforms showing high budget propaganada. Once it's under US ownership they wll no longer have this issue.
- alephnerd 3y agoThe current action occured when TikTok pushed users to call Congressional Members through anti-patterns within the app [0] Not everything is about Israel-Palestine smh. [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/tiktok-phone-calls-congress.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/tiktok-phone-cal...
- dralley 3y agoTo that point: Congressional staffers were posting on twitter that they were getting flooded by phone calls from 10-12 year olds
- prosody 3y agoThis seems like confused causality. The ban bill was put forward and passed because TikTok asked their users to contact their representatives and share their opinion about the ban bill?
- sanxiyn 3y agoThis is as bad as China banning YouTube. US fell to the level of China.
- unglaublich 3y agoIt would, if YouTube would be controlled by the US government to divide and polarize the Chinese population to fuel social unrest and political instability.
- badrequest 3y agoAn accusation of such would have as much merit as the accusations that China is dictating the tone of conversation on TikTok.
- kikokikokiko 3y agoBut aren't they? If I'm not mistaken, in China TikTok tends to shows educational content to kids. Meanwhile, in the west we get girls in bikinis dancing to the latest horrible pop song, and/or political narratives that align with whatever the chinese governments wants or at least does not disapprove of. It's a fact, even down here in Brazil which is definitely not a world power you can see how the algo is biased.
- 8note 3y agoIt's an algorithm that shows people stuff they engage with. While Chinese tiktok users are interested in educational content, Americans are not.
- kikokikokiko 3y agoIt's a well know fact that the reason chinese TikTok is an educational app is because the chinese government told them to do it. Just like they stopped chinese gamers from gaming for more than X hours in the day. You either don't know what you are talking about or you are willfully ignoring the facts. If the average chinese teenage boy was left to the hands of an "unbiased" TikTok algo, I bet the farm he would be seeing K-Pop idols and chinese fit influencers all day. Same for the girls, teenagers everywhere (in the sense of the average teenager) can't resist the crack cocaine temptations of an unlimited algo.
- lazyeye 3y agoI've never understood why, at a minimum, this is not a simple trade issue. Why is China allowed to run all their social media apps in the West whilst simultaneously blocking all access for foreigners in their own market? In what other trade scenario would this be remotely acceptable?
- almatabata 3y agoI think technically you could probably have a western social media app in China. Just you would need to partner with a Chinese company, have all the data on chinese servers, give the chinese government access on demand and censor what they don't like. Most western companies logically think that handing over your IP, all the control and half the local profits is not really worth it.
- adventured 3y agoIt wouldn't be half the local profits, it would be the whole thing in the end. They start with the scenario you mention, then they push the weakened foreign entity out of China entirely. They did that to numerous, huge US brands/companies, including McDonalds and AWS. They make it inhospitable to continue to exist at all in China, then a ditch sale becomes the only viable option for the US company.
- rightbyte 3y agoMcDonalds? They seem to invest. They are terrible though compared to the US variants and really expensive compared to real food in restaurants localy. https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-continues-china-expansion-amid-growing-demand-for-fast-food-2024-2?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-continues-china-ex...
- martinky24 3y agoA case where "technically" doesn't align with "realistically".
- 3y ago
- butler14 3y agoVery rare I disagree with EFF but here I do. It’s long overdue.
- silenced_trope 3y agoCongress can do both. I also disagree with EFF here.
- freedomben 3y agoI didn't downvote you and I don't wish to cause offense, but unless you elaborate somewhat on why you disagree, this is a pretty low value comment.
- drgo 3y agoI agree with the EFF. I have even less confidence in US companies/agencies handling my data based on their well-known history exposed by multiple whistleblowers. We need to follow the EU in this matter. They are miles ahead of us
- phantomathkg 3y agoI think this is not a binary issues. We can both ban TikTok and protect privacy in general at the same time.
- adventured 3y agoTikTok is heavily a trade matter with regards to China blockading (or heavily restricting) US companies out of having access to their economy. That spans from Facebook to McDonalds to AWS to Disney (Disney isn't even allowed to outright own its parks in China). The US has been far too lenient in the past with responding to China's hyper biased, anti-trade policies. If US social media companies can't operate in China, then Chinese social media companies shouldn't be allowed to have access to the US economy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- andrewstuart 3y agoI usually agree with the eff but not on this. The whole point here is not about the data, regardless of spurious justifications.
- User23 3y agoDid somebody in Washington finally get around to reading Unrestricted Warfare?[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare
- 2devnull 3y agoIs TikTok available in China uncensored? Maybe they’re smarter?
- Ferret7446 3y agoOnly if you fancy being censored yourself.
- iwanttocomment 3y agoSo, I feel like we already have a mechanism as a country for working with a different country who is producing something that might be harmful to American business or politics, one that doesn't functionally impact our free speech principles. A tariff. Just tax TikTok. Make Americans pay money to subscribe to it. Apply the same principle to any other social media entity based in another country. It's that easy.
- martinky24 3y agoThis is misguided and naive. The real world analogy is closer to Huawei 5G systems -- thinking about it in that context, the reasoning behind the ban makes more sense. This isn't a "capitalism based harm" that tariffs are intended to fix, this is a "national security based harm" that's being targeted. You can debate the merits of whether or not TikTok is a threat to national security, but under the supposition that it is, tariffs are not the correct lever to pull. So, it's not "that easy". I like the smugness though.
- iwanttocomment 3y agoI'd be with you if there were any indication why TikTok specifically would be banned while other Chinese social media entities or those from other countries that might be deemed national security threats are not - apart from sheer popularity, which would likely be resolved by said tariff. The US did not merely ban Huawei, it was part of a broader national security concern, where ZTE was also banned as part of the equation, and conceivably other major Chinese telecommunications firms with a strong enough foothold in the US would have been (or will be in the future) as well. Not to mention, use of TikTok is entirely an individual choice, a telephone network user does not choose (or have knowledge of) the origin of the devices their communications are transmitted through.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- leotravis10 3y agoOnce more, with feeling: https://www.techdirt.com/2024/03/11/once-more-with-feeling-banning-tiktok-doesnt-do-much-if-we-dont-regulate-data-brokers-and-pass-a-privacy-law/ https://www.techdirt.com/2024/03/11/once-more-with-feeling-b... Let's pass a strong privacy law instead of the likely unconsitutionality of this bill plus a ban only benefits Facebook/Meta if you have forgotten.
- sydbarrett74 3y agoBanning TikTok is the kind of performative, 'tinker-at-the-edges' theatre that Congress does so well.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- beshrkayali 3y agoIt's amusing how some Americans are buying into the idea that TikTok is a unique threat solely because it's associated with China, when platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Google, and others have been doing similar practices for over a decade.
- johnea 3y agoPolicy makers have clearly spoken: If China wants US citizen data, they should buy it from data brokers like everyone else!
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y agoIdeas for why someone flagged this submission. We are left to guess. EFF seems to be invoking "either-or" argument to deflect attention away from their failire to present any facts to support their position that a ban would be unconstitutional. A ban on TikTok and passage of data privacy regulation within the US are not mutually exclusive. It is not an "either-or" proposition. The bipartisan response to this bill, 352 yea and only 65 nay, seems quite unusual in recent times.