7 ms·

"Self-inflicted wound"? Obviously the story is still developing but I'm immediately skeptical. EDIT: Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a

"Self-inflicted wound"? Obviously the story is still developing but I'm immediately skeptical. EDIT: Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. archive.is has the original. https://archive.is/wj0LE https://archive.is/wj0LE

algorias 3y ago
Same. I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but that is very strange wording.
- mpweiher 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    Who are you quoting here?
    - Sabinus 3y ago
      Traditionaly, Russian newspapers.
      - smsm42 3y ago
        They moved on to accidentally falling out of the window. If the subject is not important enough to poison, of course.
    - algorias 3y ago
      It's a meme. Same as "shot himself in the back of the head"
jjk166 3y ago
Self inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.
- jongjong 3y ago
  Agreed. This has red flags all over it. I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Corporations can be shielded from liability when this happens. One executive could end up charged with a crime but the company itself can always paint them as a rogue agent who acted independently. IMO, this will keep getting worse. Commodification of scapegoats.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Always_has_been.gif I mean, nestle still exists, as does the entire financial and energy industries.
  - Cheer2171 3y ago
    > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. When have they not? This is literally the entire point of limited liability for hundreds of years. Goes back to the East India Company.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
      I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government. The East India company was a good example, they had their own army & fought wars of conquest.
      - jongjong 3y ago
        Yes, there were very few such corporations before and they were not at the core of a nation's economy as they are today. The fact that they failed spectacularly should have been a lesson for us to avoid them! Instead, we've enshrined the concept of corporate personhood into law. Kind of insane to think that we have a construct which at the same time claims that a corporation is a person but also that the corporation is not liable to legal prosecution for its crimes as a person is. I.e. a corporation itself cannot go to jail as a person can. The corporation can do whatever it wants and continue operating unimpeded so long as it can keep finding new people to serve as scapegoats. Imagine if some people would have the same rights as corporations; the bosses of mafias could assassinate anyone, pay a fine, throw a scapegoat under the bus and continue 'business' as usual. Police couldn't even reach a plea deal with the scapegoats because no matter what information the scapegoats revealed about the big boss, it would be inadmissible because actually, in that very special case, the big mafia boss is not a person but, conveniently, an abstract entity and therefore it cannot physically go to jail. How about shutting down their operations for x amount of time? That should be the bare minimum... It could be applied to corporations, why is it not?
robotnikman 3y ago
Yep, the timing of his death is just too on point.
rl3 3y ago
>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. Another source backs this up, and seems to have interviewed the man's attorney in the past. [0][1] It's tempting to dismiss foul play on the basis that it's too brazen in the middle of a deposition. However, that's also the height of plausible deniability because cross examinations can get personal and thus emotional. --- I can't help but be reminded of a film quote: "But that's the way it works with corporate murder. Boss gets wind of something, calls in his head of security, who talks to someone, who talks to a friend of someone. Finishes up with an answering machine in a rented office, a couple of sensitive gentlemen in a blue pickup truck. They will never know who ordered the hit." [2] [0] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist... [1] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowles-on-representing-boeing-south-carolina-whistleblowers/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowle... [2] https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17 https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17
- esoterica 3y ago
  Movies aren’t real dude.
  - zenexer 3y ago
    In the real world, the security team just handles it directly. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees-charged-aggressive-cyberstalking-campaign-targeting-natick https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees... Edit: In all seriousness, I don’t think the situation presented in the aforementioned movie quote is implausible, though I’m inclined to doubt foul play here unless there’s specific evidence to that effect. Depositions can be extraordinarily stressful; compound that with the anxiety of being a whistleblower, and I can see how someone could snap. At the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that there was foul play.
    - esoterica 3y ago
      [flagged]
charlie0 3y ago
Was it multiple shots?
- nixass 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - earleybird 3y ago
    [flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
dredds 3y ago
>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. A YT video speculated (wildly one would say) about someone's recent death simply because the cause was not announced by the family as it was under (UK) inquest. In some jurisdictions it is inappropriate (or even illegal) to state or speculate on a cause of death when it is under investigation as a suspected suicide, even just to limit the possibility of copycat or revenge cases: Only since 2016 is it legal (in NZ) to report, broadcast or even post on the internet that a death is a suspected suicide before the coroner releases their findings. AFAIK, posting any details about _the method_ is still not allowed in NZ. This may sound antiquated (and frustrating) in an age of instant news, but jumping to conclusions can have real consequences, at least legally in some edge cases.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  No. NZ law is completely irrelevant to a UK news source's reporting on a U.S. death. And the source is the man's attorney. https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist...
  - dredds 3y ago
    It's a code of conduct of UK reporting even if it occurs outside the UK: "the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods"
- Aeolun 3y ago
  I mean, he could presumably have died from other causes, but a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
robjan 3y ago
In the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/ https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  It'll take a while to see if it has made any difference, as this version of the code was only adopted in 2021. Suicide rates in the UK appear to be fairly static over the last 20 years: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7749/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...
hcfman 3y ago
Russia => Poison UK => Suicide (Remember the iran nuclear inspector and the guy from mi6 found in a suitecase) Netherlands/Other => Disappearance (Arjen Kamphuis)
medo-bear 3y ago
Imagine something similar happened in Russia :)
notorandit 3y ago
I am not going to be skeptical until they tell me exactly how hey got to the "self-inflicted" wound. How can you tell it was self-inflicted? Any witness? Recording? C'mon!
idw 3y ago
It was a breach of their guidelines to report a method of suicide, so it sounds like they were just fixing that. This is standard in the UK because of evidence showing that reporting methods can be followed by further suicides. https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-and-offence/guidelines/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-an... Suicide, Attempted Suicide, Self-Harm and Eating Disorders 5.3.45 Suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm should be portrayed with sensitivity, whether in drama or in factual content. Factual reporting and fictional portrayal of suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm have the potential to make such actions appear feasible and even reasonable to the vulnerable. Methods of suicide and self-harm must not be included in output except where they are editorially justified and are also justified by the context. We should not include explicit details that would allow a method of suicide to be imitated.
- mateo1 3y ago
  All these guidelines are what is making BBC unreadable for me. The language they use is just so artificial. I understand why they do, and how they feel like they have a responsibility to "optimize" language for some metrics, but in my opinion what really matters is the objective reality, not the phrasing. Maybe they could report more on the NHS inability to cope with mental health patients rather than avoid using the word gunshot in a country where gun ownership is so scarce.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  There's no definition of "responsible reporting" that involves hiding information from the public to support a policy goal.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

algorias 3y ago

Same. I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but that is very strange wording.

mpweiher 3y ago
[flagged]
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Who are you quoting here?
  - Sabinus 3y ago
    Traditionaly, Russian newspapers.
    - smsm42 3y ago
      They moved on to accidentally falling out of the window. If the subject is not important enough to poison, of course.
  - algorias 3y ago
    It's a meme. Same as "shot himself in the back of the head"

jjk166 3y ago

Self inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.

jongjong 3y ago
Agreed. This has red flags all over it. I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Corporations can be shielded from liability when this happens. One executive could end up charged with a crime but the company itself can always paint them as a rogue agent who acted independently. IMO, this will keep getting worse. Commodification of scapegoats.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Always_has_been.gif I mean, nestle still exists, as does the entire financial and energy industries.
- Cheer2171 3y ago
  > I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. When have they not? This is literally the entire point of limited liability for hundreds of years. Goes back to the East India Company.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    I've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government. The East India company was a good example, they had their own army & fought wars of conquest.
    - jongjong 3y ago
      Yes, there were very few such corporations before and they were not at the core of a nation's economy as they are today. The fact that they failed spectacularly should have been a lesson for us to avoid them! Instead, we've enshrined the concept of corporate personhood into law. Kind of insane to think that we have a construct which at the same time claims that a corporation is a person but also that the corporation is not liable to legal prosecution for its crimes as a person is. I.e. a corporation itself cannot go to jail as a person can. The corporation can do whatever it wants and continue operating unimpeded so long as it can keep finding new people to serve as scapegoats. Imagine if some people would have the same rights as corporations; the bosses of mafias could assassinate anyone, pay a fine, throw a scapegoat under the bus and continue 'business' as usual. Police couldn't even reach a plea deal with the scapegoats because no matter what information the scapegoats revealed about the big boss, it would be inadmissible because actually, in that very special case, the big mafia boss is not a person but, conveniently, an abstract entity and therefore it cannot physically go to jail. How about shutting down their operations for x amount of time? That should be the bare minimum... It could be applied to corporations, why is it not?

robotnikman 3y ago

Yep, the timing of his death is just too on point.

rl3 3y ago

>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. Another source backs this up, and seems to have interviewed the man's attorney in the past. [0][1] It's tempting to dismiss foul play on the basis that it's too brazen in the middle of a deposition. However, that's also the height of plausible deniability because cross examinations can get personal and thus emotional. --- I can't help but be reminded of a film quote: "But that's the way it works with corporate murder. Boss gets wind of something, calls in his head of security, who talks to someone, who talks to a friend of someone. Finishes up with an answering machine in a rented office, a couple of sensitive gentlemen in a blue pickup truck. They will never know who ordered the hit." [2] [0] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist... [1] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowles-on-representing-boeing-south-carolina-whistleblowers/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowle... [2] https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17 https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17

esoterica 3y ago
Movies aren’t real dude.
- zenexer 3y ago
  In the real world, the security team just handles it directly. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees-charged-aggressive-cyberstalking-campaign-targeting-natick https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees... Edit: In all seriousness, I don’t think the situation presented in the aforementioned movie quote is implausible, though I’m inclined to doubt foul play here unless there’s specific evidence to that effect. Depositions can be extraordinarily stressful; compound that with the anxiety of being a whistleblower, and I can see how someone could snap. At the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that there was foul play.
  - esoterica 3y ago
    [flagged]

charlie0 3y ago

Was it multiple shots?

nixass 3y ago
[flagged]
- earleybird 3y ago
  [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dredds 3y ago

>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. A YT video speculated (wildly one would say) about someone's recent death simply because the cause was not announced by the family as it was under (UK) inquest. In some jurisdictions it is inappropriate (or even illegal) to state or speculate on a cause of death when it is under investigation as a suspected suicide, even just to limit the possibility of copycat or revenge cases: Only since 2016 is it legal (in NZ) to report, broadcast or even post on the internet that a death is a suspected suicide before the coroner releases their findings. AFAIK, posting any details about _the method_ is still not allowed in NZ. This may sound antiquated (and frustrating) in an age of instant news, but jumping to conclusions can have real consequences, at least legally in some edge cases.

torstenvl 3y ago
No. NZ law is completely irrelevant to a UK news source's reporting on a U.S. death. And the source is the man's attorney. https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist...
- dredds 3y ago
  It's a code of conduct of UK reporting even if it occurs outside the UK: "the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods"
Aeolun 3y ago
I mean, he could presumably have died from other causes, but a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

robjan 3y ago

In the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/ https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/

anigbrowl 3y ago
It'll take a while to see if it has made any difference, as this version of the code was only adopted in 2021. Suicide rates in the UK appear to be fairly static over the last 20 years: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7749/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...

hcfman 3y ago

Russia => Poison UK => Suicide (Remember the iran nuclear inspector and the guy from mi6 found in a suitecase) Netherlands/Other => Disappearance (Arjen Kamphuis)

medo-bear 3y ago

Imagine something similar happened in Russia :)

notorandit 3y ago

I am not going to be skeptical until they tell me exactly how hey got to the "self-inflicted" wound. How can you tell it was self-inflicted? Any witness? Recording? C'mon!

idw 3y ago

It was a breach of their guidelines to report a method of suicide, so it sounds like they were just fixing that. This is standard in the UK because of evidence showing that reporting methods can be followed by further suicides. https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-and-offence/guidelines/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-an... Suicide, Attempted Suicide, Self-Harm and Eating Disorders 5.3.45 Suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm should be portrayed with sensitivity, whether in drama or in factual content. Factual reporting and fictional portrayal of suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm have the potential to make such actions appear feasible and even reasonable to the vulnerable. Methods of suicide and self-harm must not be included in output except where they are editorially justified and are also justified by the context. We should not include explicit details that would allow a method of suicide to be imitated.

mateo1 3y ago
All these guidelines are what is making BBC unreadable for me. The language they use is just so artificial. I understand why they do, and how they feel like they have a responsibility to "optimize" language for some metrics, but in my opinion what really matters is the objective reality, not the phrasing. Maybe they could report more on the NHS inability to cope with mental health patients rather than avoid using the word gunshot in a country where gun ownership is so scarce.
torstenvl 3y ago
There's no definition of "responsible reporting" that involves hiding information from the public to support a policy goal.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]