11 ms·

Bob_cassette_rewinder

484 points by popcalc 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
colechristensen 3y ago
Don’t use rinse aid products, some have been found to damage the lining of your intestines at extremely low concentrations. Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use them. https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-research-summaries/the-journal-of-allergy-and-clinical-immunology/2022/gut#:~:text=The%20research%20group%20demonstrated%20that,cells%20in%201%3A20%2C000%20dilutions https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-research-s....
- booi 3y ago
  The fact that the scent stays on dishes after even multiple washes with detergent speaks to how powerful of a surfactant rinse aids are. 2/10 do not recommend.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  This article is about rinse aids used on commercial dishwashers. Do rinse aids sold for domestic dishwashers contain the same stuff?
  - cyberax 3y ago
    Yes, it is. And it is assumed to be safe in the concentrations used. This finding has not yet been confirmed in real studies on humans, only on tissue models. I just checked, and my rinse aid has 0.2% of ethoxylated alcohols. So this would be around 500 times dilution already, and the rinse aid is further diluted by about 100x by the dishwasher. The article found some effects at 1:20000 dilution. So I think that it might be concerning, but not too alarming.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Yeah it would suck if it ended up being really harmful because alcohol ethoxylates are in way more stuff than rinse aids. https://www.ewg.org/guides/substances/16368-ALCOHOLETHOXYLATESC10C16SODIUMSALT/ https://www.ewg.org/guides/substances/16368-ALCOHOLETHOXYLAT...
- cyberax 3y ago
  You can make your own rinse aid, just use a bit of citric acid (to chelate metal ions to soften the water), a dash of EDTA (also a chelator), and a mild surfactant.
  - GuB-42 3y ago
    But isn't it what the commercial rinse aids the article talks about are made of? Doing stuff by yourself is always interesting, but rince aid is cheap, and according to the article, apparently harmless at the concentrations used in household dishwashers, so unless you want something specific, why bother?
- Johnny555 3y ago
  Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use them I always thought rinse aid was only needed if you have hard water. We have pretty soft water and like you, I found that rinse aid made no difference at all in drying performance or preventing water spots (we have no water spots even without rinse aid).
  - jhugo 3y ago
    Very hard water here. There’s a tank for salt in the bottom of the dishwasher, as long as I keep that topped up there’s no need for rinse aid.
- GuB-42 3y ago
  The study did not find damage at the concentrations typically used in household dishwashers. This is only for professional dishwashers. You may have a point with regard to this article though, as the author uses professional dishwasher rinse aid and detergent without real knowledge of what is happening. If you don't notice any difference when using rince aid, you may have very soft water. On many dishwashers (not sure about Bob), you are supposed to adjust the amount of rinse aid being used depending on your water hardness level, and for very soft water, it may very well be zero.
lebean 3y ago
Oh wow a Juicero of dishwashers!
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  That’s not fair, at least this actually works.
  - koolba 3y ago
    Just like Juicero, I’m sure you could squeeze the detergent out of the cassette with your bare hands and wash your dishes by hand.
    - thedrbrian 3y ago
      Dunno if I'd really want to put my hands in dishwasher detergent for long periods of time. It's bad enough when I get a bit on my hands refilling Bob
    - _aavaa_ 3y ago
      Except the juicero approached the squeezing portion with what’s basically a hydraulic press rather than something sane. This just has overpriced detergent but otherwise a seemingly well thought out machine.
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      BRB running a survey on SF on how many people can actually do that...
userbinator 3y ago
The more I think of it, the more I can draw parallel between Bob cassettes and those overpriced DRM-enabled inkjet cartridges, often costing more than the printer itself. More than two decades ago, this is the first publicly documented attempt at hacking printer DRM - indeed, also accomplished with EEPROMs in the cartridges: https://eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.html https://eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.html I thought the GUID was put in the cartridge to prevent the machine from accepting the same one but refilled, since I know this is done with ink cartridges (printer remembers last N cartridge's IDs) so it's odd to see no other mention of that.
- rob74 3y ago
  If hacking cartridges becomes popular enough that it impacts their cartridge sales, they might put out a firmware update that does just that, but it looks like they went with the "lazy option" first?
  - hengistbury 3y ago
    Daan Tech broke their firmware update mechanism for lots of dishwashers in the field by losing their keys, more than once too. I own one such dishwasher and can't update the firmware without replacing the main board. They could certainly prevent cartridge resetting in newer dishwashers.
    - kurtoid 3y ago
      Where can I find more details about this?
    - dreamcompiler 3y ago
      Which is one of the main reasons to never let "smart" appliances access the internet.
zadjii 3y ago
This is a great write up, thanks for sharing. I had never heard of these before, and would usually be totally against a subscription based product like that. But the idea of totally bypassing their "drm" for 1/60th the cost? Much more intriguing
johng 3y ago
That project is cool. I decided to check out his other repos and he has done a lot of neat stuff. I really like the duckypad and this thing: https://github.com/dekuNukem/daytripper https://github.com/dekuNukem/daytripper
AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
Shout out here for the youtube channel he mentions turned him onto the bob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVup5ya0WVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVup5ya0WVQ / https://www.youtube.com/user/Techmoan https://www.youtube.com/user/Techmoan Mat/Techmoan has a perfectly eclectic mix of useful current generation hardware reviews (with his reviews skewed to things which Work Well, are well built and resilient vs fancy features) and nostalgic reviews of electronics (sometimes of things you never knew you should be nostalgic about!). I love his channels style as well, bit of funny, lots of facts, not too technically dense, lots of fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0y1pUtPGQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0y1pUtPGQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_XeVSKqSY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_XeVSKqSY Great videos.
- thecosmicfrog 3y ago
  Agreed wholeheartedly. Techmoan is one of those channels I'm always excited to see a new video from.
- 05 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hengistbury 3y ago
    I feel like DRM is a stretch, the chip in the cartridge is used to track how many washes are left so it knows if it is empty. The dishwasher can be used with regular tablets or powder. I use mine with powder and a small amount of citric acid, and have great results.
Brian_K_White 3y ago
I love this incalculably, and, calculably.
omoikane 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27013880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27013880 - Bob Cassette Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM (2021), 404 comments
JamesAdir 3y ago
I'm fascinated by the design of the rewinder. Could someone provide me with some guidance on where to begin learning how to design a board like this?
- crote 3y ago
  It's quite a basic circuit board. Start with an Arduino tutorial to get a feeling of hooking up electronics (Adafruit is probably a good start), once you've got it working look up a KiCad tutorial to turn it into an actual PCB. The trickiest parts here are dealing with the MCU (look for example schematics to copy, they're probably already in the datasheet), sourcing parts (Mouser/Farnell/Arrow are expensive but have good search tools - LCSC is dirt cheap but has terrible search), and soldering the PCB (stick with through-hole parts, if at all possible). You can get a bare PCB of this size made at JLCPCB or a dozen other places for less than $5 - not including shipping.
  - JamesAdir 3y ago
    Thanks for the tips!
  - tomn 3y ago
    agree, except for > stick with through-hole parts, if at all possible These days it's more work to avoid SMD than it is to embrace it. Many many parts are not available in through-hole, and dealing with 0805 passives and 0.65mm pitch ICs is not that difficult (unless you assume that it is). As a bonus, you get much easier re-work, access to assembly services, and cheaper components.
maeln 3y ago
It is very ironic that they sell it has "eco-compact dishwasher" when it require disposable chunk of plastic to use it. The amount of water saved will really not make up for the amount of plastic thrash created. From their website: "At Daan Tech, we’ve always believed that a more sustainable and fairer world is possible.", you really have to be cynical to write something like this and then sell a worse washing machine that generate lot of plastic waste.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- CharlesTati 3y ago
  It doesn't require the cassettes. You can use regular detergent.
- ovi256 3y ago
  > "At Daan Tech, we’ve always believed that a more sustainable and fairer world is possible.", you really have to be cynical to write something like this I tend to assume incompetence rather than malice. The marketing person that wrote that piece of copy never worried about the lifecycle waste analysis of the project they were working on, because they trusted the CEO/founder that hired them, who said it was gonna be good for the environment. They probably aren't the type of person that worries about nor has the skills to do a lifecycle waste analysis.
  - lupire 3y ago
    Weaponized incompetence.
    - PoignardAzur 3y ago
      Yeah, I'm all for applying Hanlon's Razor, but in this case this seems like a clear case of "they had an incentive to say whatever made them look best and they sure followed it". "Weaponized incompetence" isn't a bad word for it.
- 3y ago
beirut_bootleg 3y ago
Every time this gets posted to HN, the comments go straight for "DRM bad!", when the Bob dishwasher does NOT in fact require you to use the proprietary cassettes.
- SergeAx 3y ago
  Can you elaborate? I found nothing on the product website about using off-the-shelf detergent.
  - beirut_bootleg 3y ago
    https://daan.tech/discover-bob-cassette/ https://daan.tech/discover-bob-cassette/ Scroll down to FAQ, and expand the first question: Is the use of a Bob cassette mandatory? LE: It's also mentioned in the rewind project's README. > Credit where credit's due, Daan Tech didn't completely lock down the machine with Bob cassettes. Once empty, you can leave it there and add detergents manually. https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder?tab=readme-ov-file#alternatives https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder?tab=readm...
- AmVess 3y ago
  It is absurd that it exists at all. A DRM'd cassette for dish soap. This world needs an enema.
  - johng 3y ago
    I like that joker quote :) but he said town I think?
- LadyCailin 3y ago
  But the company itself mentions several drawbacks to not using the cassettes. So, yeah, it is absolutely a form of DRM. It doesn’t totally brick your device, but it definitely reduces its functionality.
mhjibon2k24 3y ago
[dead]
1f60c 3y ago
I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but > With shipping and VAT added, it costs a whopping £43 ($60) for 90 washes! That is 48p (67c) per wash. This about matches the cost of "premium" (think Dreft, Finish, etc.) dishwasher detergent tablets in my country.
- re 3y ago
  Those tablets are sized for a dishwasher that holds about 4 times as many dishes, though.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  > I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but There are tons of brands. I use an eco-friendly brand when washing a full machine of lightly used dishes (no eggs, for example).
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  You can make your own from e.g. Dawn and baking soda. The reason you can't use pure Dawn is that it would fill your dishwasher with foam.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Why bother? Powder dish detergent is so damn cheap and works just as well as any other dish detergent product, and better than packs because those don't use the prewash cycle properly.
jheriko 3y ago
i like the story, but i cant help but notice that the "cassette" is solving a non-existent problem who the fuck has to measure a dishwasher tablet?
- uxp100 3y ago
  Do you understand it’s a micro countertop dishwasher, that would use less detergent than a full size?
- hengistbury 3y ago
  This dishwasher is much smaller, so would require smaller tablets to work work efficiently. Certainly possible, and Daan Tech sell small tablets for this use. One benefit of measured detergent is that the wash cycle can dispense the correct amount for different parts of the cycle, for example the pre-wash can dispense a small amount and the main cycle can dispense a larger amount. The rinse at the end can dispense rinse aid. This system offers more control to the machine about when fluids are used, though it would be much better to include refillable tanks instead of the cassette system. I own a Bob and use powder since mine has stopped pumping detergent...
  - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
    Maybe I am just naive, but when I had a table top dishwasher like that I just threw in a tablet or half a tablet depending the dirtiness and amount of dishes and I never had problems. Only reason I changed to full size one was because I got tired of pouring the water in each time
- skerit 3y ago
  I got a new Miele dishwasher, which is able to use "PowerDisks". I actually find it quite handy.
- benjijay 3y ago
  It seems that one cassette holds enough detergent for 30 washes, so presumably you'd want to measure 1/30th of the reservoir per load. Just a guess.
jheriko 3y ago
the story is fun, but i can't help but notice the justification for the cassette to being with is nonsense - solving a problem nobody ever had. who the fuck has to measure out a dishwasher tablet? nobody is who
Waterluvian 3y ago
For being sleek and compact, that main door sure is bulbous. Anyone know what’s inside it? The recessed window makes it look like it’s superfluous.
- ryankrage77 3y ago
  There's some insulation, as it can heat the water.
globular-toast 3y ago
Something doesn't add up here. It says £43 for 90 washes, but the picture shows six cartridges which is 180 washes? On top of that, it contains rinse aid and enough deep cleaning for those 180 washes. Compared to dishwasher tablets from the supermarket it looks like 180 would cost from about £15 for supermarket own brand, all the way up to about £32 for the most expensive. Then on top of that you have the rinse aid, deep cleaner and salt, which seems to account for the other £10. Obviously this thing is significantly smaller but I think the assumption is you'd be running the big dishwasher half empty every day anyway so the cost would be the same. So it doesn't seem to be that far off price wise? I find dishwashers in general to be an example of convenience addiction. The amount of dishes this thing can hold I could wash up by hand in about 5 minutes and, unlike the dishwasher, I can guarantee I'll do it properly. People forget that washing up is a skill like anything else that you can get good at. It only takes a bit of practice. But once you use a dishwasher and forget how to do it yourself you get addicted and think you can't live without it.
- alright2565 3y ago
  I'm not familiar with mini dishwashers like Bob, but the full size ones are definitely not a "convenience addiction". You may be capable and skilled at using the two/three-sink method for washing up, but the general population isn't and will instead run the tap and waste far greater amounts of heat and water than a dishwasher would require.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Yeah I'm not capable/skilled at playing the piano either because, guess what, I don't play the piano. Are you seriously suggesting washing dishes is some next-level human skill? Dishwasher manufacturers will eagerly tell you they use less water than hand washing. But they're more quiet about the fact that they use more energy. I've honestly never heard anyone complain about their water bill.
masto 3y ago
I was about to make an argument that "there's no DRM" because it's a simple flash memory chip used to keep track of how much detergent is left, and it's totally unencrypted... But wait, could it be that the reason for the bizarre "xor 0x50" is so that they have a "technological protection measure" in place to trigger anti-circumvention rules? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Information_Society_Directive_2001#Technological_protection_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Information_Soci...)
- fennecbutt 3y ago
  If a regular consumer can't bypass it by themselves then it's drm. If it requires a bypass by the consumer at all then it's drm.
ccppurcell 3y ago
I don't understand the casette pitch. I'm filling the dishwasher anyway. The tablet is like 1 more item in the dishwasher, not having to do that is below 1% improvement.
ryanmcbride 3y ago
Seeing people defend the cassettes is weird. Here's how I look at it: 1. The company say's being eco friendly is important to them. 2. They manufacture, sell, and ship expensive plastic containers for their detergent. 3. The machines don't necessarily need this specific detergent, and will work fine by leaving in one of the "cassettes" and just using normal dish detergent. This means that the cassettes were never necessary, and are purely a separate stream of income for the company. Literally the printer ink method. Which means they didn't have to produce this plastic waste at all, they could have just allowed it to use a smaller amount of liquid or powder detergent (pre-portioned pods are probably too much detergent). Hell even if they wanted to continue with the printer ink approach, they could have used powder detergent in little wax-lined cardboard containers. Regardless of how well they're recycling or re-using the cassettes returned to them, the cassettes never needed to exist. It's more plastic taking up more space in more polluting delivery trucks. At the end of the day this company is selling a dishwasher and a detergent subscription service. It's not the worst thing out there and it's not creating nearly as much plastic waste as the fishing industry but it's still a company greenwashing itself to sell you more garbage.
- acomjean 3y ago
  Maybe seems like "cheating" to refill as it messes with the business model. My experiences are with Printers and ink. A studio I'm a member of inherited a big epson4880 printer. Its a big heavy machine, well built. It came with a "chip resetter" tool for refilling ink carts. The printer seems to know that its using non-epson inks (it warns me on the little display, and I have to click through) but it allows them (right now filled with cleaning solution, but thats another storry). Newer printers don't allow this (unless you are in Europe). Apparently they are running out of DRM chips, and some of the new printers require a firmware update to use new ink cartridges using the older chips. One can see a day when these printers/dishwashers no longer have ink/detergents manufactured for them, becoming big paperweights. Companies never seem to want offer more expensive products with cheaper use costs. Maybe the problem is people don't think about it enough? Where I live the markets have 2 prices listed on the shelves. 1) the cost of the package, 2) the cost per unit of the package (eg cost per oz, cost per pill etc..). Its much easier to compare. [1] https://shop.inkjetmall.com/Epson-SureColor-P900 https://shop.inkjetmall.com/Epson-SureColor-P900 "We are currently supplying the European Region versions of this printer model. They can work with a simple chip resetter and refillable cartridges (which we do not supply). Unfortunately, the USA Region versions of this printer have been designed by EPSON to prevent the use of non-EPSON chips and are designed to prevent the use of a chip resetter. As a result, we do not believe any 3rd party solutions may become available for the USA region printers for some considerable time until the anti-3rd party mechanism that prevents the use of 3rd party products is discovered and circumvented.."

484 points by popcalc 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Don’t use rinse aid products, some have been found to damage the lining of your intestines at extremely low concentrations. Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use them. https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-research-summaries/the-journal-of-allergy-and-clinical-immunology/2022/gut#:~:text=The%20research%20group%20demonstrated%20that,cells%20in%201%3A20%2C000%20dilutions https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-research-s....

booi 3y ago
The fact that the scent stays on dishes after even multiple washes with detergent speaks to how powerful of a surfactant rinse aids are. 2/10 do not recommend.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
This article is about rinse aids used on commercial dishwashers. Do rinse aids sold for domestic dishwashers contain the same stuff?
- cyberax 3y ago
  Yes, it is. And it is assumed to be safe in the concentrations used. This finding has not yet been confirmed in real studies on humans, only on tissue models. I just checked, and my rinse aid has 0.2% of ethoxylated alcohols. So this would be around 500 times dilution already, and the rinse aid is further diluted by about 100x by the dishwasher. The article found some effects at 1:20000 dilution. So I think that it might be concerning, but not too alarming.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Yeah it would suck if it ended up being really harmful because alcohol ethoxylates are in way more stuff than rinse aids. https://www.ewg.org/guides/substances/16368-ALCOHOLETHOXYLATESC10C16SODIUMSALT/ https://www.ewg.org/guides/substances/16368-ALCOHOLETHOXYLAT...
cyberax 3y ago
You can make your own rinse aid, just use a bit of citric acid (to chelate metal ions to soften the water), a dash of EDTA (also a chelator), and a mild surfactant.
- GuB-42 3y ago
  But isn't it what the commercial rinse aids the article talks about are made of? Doing stuff by yourself is always interesting, but rince aid is cheap, and according to the article, apparently harmless at the concentrations used in household dishwashers, so unless you want something specific, why bother?
Johnny555 3y ago
Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use them I always thought rinse aid was only needed if you have hard water. We have pretty soft water and like you, I found that rinse aid made no difference at all in drying performance or preventing water spots (we have no water spots even without rinse aid).
- jhugo 3y ago
  Very hard water here. There’s a tank for salt in the bottom of the dishwasher, as long as I keep that topped up there’s no need for rinse aid.
GuB-42 3y ago
The study did not find damage at the concentrations typically used in household dishwashers. This is only for professional dishwashers. You may have a point with regard to this article though, as the author uses professional dishwasher rinse aid and detergent without real knowledge of what is happening. If you don't notice any difference when using rince aid, you may have very soft water. On many dishwashers (not sure about Bob), you are supposed to adjust the amount of rinse aid being used depending on your water hardness level, and for very soft water, it may very well be zero.

lebean 3y ago

Oh wow a Juicero of dishwashers!

_aavaa_ 3y ago
That’s not fair, at least this actually works.
- koolba 3y ago
  Just like Juicero, I’m sure you could squeeze the detergent out of the cassette with your bare hands and wash your dishes by hand.
  - thedrbrian 3y ago
    Dunno if I'd really want to put my hands in dishwasher detergent for long periods of time. It's bad enough when I get a bit on my hands refilling Bob
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    Except the juicero approached the squeezing portion with what’s basically a hydraulic press rather than something sane. This just has overpriced detergent but otherwise a seemingly well thought out machine.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    BRB running a survey on SF on how many people can actually do that...

userbinator 3y ago

The more I think of it, the more I can draw parallel between Bob cassettes and those overpriced DRM-enabled inkjet cartridges, often costing more than the printer itself. More than two decades ago, this is the first publicly documented attempt at hacking printer DRM - indeed, also accomplished with EEPROMs in the cartridges: https://eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.html https://eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.html I thought the GUID was put in the cartridge to prevent the machine from accepting the same one but refilled, since I know this is done with ink cartridges (printer remembers last N cartridge's IDs) so it's odd to see no other mention of that.

rob74 3y ago
If hacking cartridges becomes popular enough that it impacts their cartridge sales, they might put out a firmware update that does just that, but it looks like they went with the "lazy option" first?
- hengistbury 3y ago
  Daan Tech broke their firmware update mechanism for lots of dishwashers in the field by losing their keys, more than once too. I own one such dishwasher and can't update the firmware without replacing the main board. They could certainly prevent cartridge resetting in newer dishwashers.
  - kurtoid 3y ago
    Where can I find more details about this?
  - dreamcompiler 3y ago
    Which is one of the main reasons to never let "smart" appliances access the internet.

zadjii 3y ago

This is a great write up, thanks for sharing. I had never heard of these before, and would usually be totally against a subscription based product like that. But the idea of totally bypassing their "drm" for 1/60th the cost? Much more intriguing

johng 3y ago

That project is cool. I decided to check out his other repos and he has done a lot of neat stuff. I really like the duckypad and this thing: https://github.com/dekuNukem/daytripper https://github.com/dekuNukem/daytripper

AdamJacobMuller 3y ago

Shout out here for the youtube channel he mentions turned him onto the bob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVup5ya0WVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVup5ya0WVQ / https://www.youtube.com/user/Techmoan https://www.youtube.com/user/Techmoan Mat/Techmoan has a perfectly eclectic mix of useful current generation hardware reviews (with his reviews skewed to things which Work Well, are well built and resilient vs fancy features) and nostalgic reviews of electronics (sometimes of things you never knew you should be nostalgic about!). I love his channels style as well, bit of funny, lots of facts, not too technically dense, lots of fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0y1pUtPGQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0y1pUtPGQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_XeVSKqSY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_XeVSKqSY Great videos.

thecosmicfrog 3y ago
Agreed wholeheartedly. Techmoan is one of those channels I'm always excited to see a new video from.
05 3y ago
[flagged]
- hengistbury 3y ago
  I feel like DRM is a stretch, the chip in the cartridge is used to track how many washes are left so it knows if it is empty. The dishwasher can be used with regular tablets or powder. I use mine with powder and a small amount of citric acid, and have great results.

Brian_K_White 3y ago

I love this incalculably, and, calculably.

omoikane 3y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27013880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27013880 - Bob Cassette Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM (2021), 404 comments

JamesAdir 3y ago

I'm fascinated by the design of the rewinder. Could someone provide me with some guidance on where to begin learning how to design a board like this?

crote 3y ago
It's quite a basic circuit board. Start with an Arduino tutorial to get a feeling of hooking up electronics (Adafruit is probably a good start), once you've got it working look up a KiCad tutorial to turn it into an actual PCB. The trickiest parts here are dealing with the MCU (look for example schematics to copy, they're probably already in the datasheet), sourcing parts (Mouser/Farnell/Arrow are expensive but have good search tools - LCSC is dirt cheap but has terrible search), and soldering the PCB (stick with through-hole parts, if at all possible). You can get a bare PCB of this size made at JLCPCB or a dozen other places for less than $5 - not including shipping.
- JamesAdir 3y ago
  Thanks for the tips!
- tomn 3y ago
  agree, except for > stick with through-hole parts, if at all possible These days it's more work to avoid SMD than it is to embrace it. Many many parts are not available in through-hole, and dealing with 0805 passives and 0.65mm pitch ICs is not that difficult (unless you assume that it is). As a bonus, you get much easier re-work, access to assembly services, and cheaper components.

maeln 3y ago

It is very ironic that they sell it has "eco-compact dishwasher" when it require disposable chunk of plastic to use it. The amount of water saved will really not make up for the amount of plastic thrash created. From their website: "At Daan Tech, we’ve always believed that a more sustainable and fairer world is possible.", you really have to be cynical to write something like this and then sell a worse washing machine that generate lot of plastic waste.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
CharlesTati 3y ago
It doesn't require the cassettes. You can use regular detergent.
ovi256 3y ago
> "At Daan Tech, we’ve always believed that a more sustainable and fairer world is possible.", you really have to be cynical to write something like this I tend to assume incompetence rather than malice. The marketing person that wrote that piece of copy never worried about the lifecycle waste analysis of the project they were working on, because they trusted the CEO/founder that hired them, who said it was gonna be good for the environment. They probably aren't the type of person that worries about nor has the skills to do a lifecycle waste analysis.
- lupire 3y ago
  Weaponized incompetence.
  - PoignardAzur 3y ago
    Yeah, I'm all for applying Hanlon's Razor, but in this case this seems like a clear case of "they had an incentive to say whatever made them look best and they sure followed it". "Weaponized incompetence" isn't a bad word for it.
3y ago

beirut_bootleg 3y ago

Every time this gets posted to HN, the comments go straight for "DRM bad!", when the Bob dishwasher does NOT in fact require you to use the proprietary cassettes.

SergeAx 3y ago
Can you elaborate? I found nothing on the product website about using off-the-shelf detergent.
- beirut_bootleg 3y ago
  https://daan.tech/discover-bob-cassette/ https://daan.tech/discover-bob-cassette/ Scroll down to FAQ, and expand the first question: Is the use of a Bob cassette mandatory? LE: It's also mentioned in the rewind project's README. > Credit where credit's due, Daan Tech didn't completely lock down the machine with Bob cassettes. Once empty, you can leave it there and add detergents manually. https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder?tab=readme-ov-file#alternatives https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder?tab=readm...
AmVess 3y ago
It is absurd that it exists at all. A DRM'd cassette for dish soap. This world needs an enema.
- johng 3y ago
  I like that joker quote :) but he said town I think?
LadyCailin 3y ago
But the company itself mentions several drawbacks to not using the cassettes. So, yeah, it is absolutely a form of DRM. It doesn’t totally brick your device, but it definitely reduces its functionality.

mhjibon2k24 3y ago

[dead]

1f60c 3y ago

I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but > With shipping and VAT added, it costs a whopping £43 ($60) for 90 washes! That is 48p (67c) per wash. This about matches the cost of "premium" (think Dreft, Finish, etc.) dishwasher detergent tablets in my country.

re 3y ago
Those tablets are sized for a dishwasher that holds about 4 times as many dishes, though.
bayindirh 3y ago
> I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but There are tons of brands. I use an eco-friendly brand when washing a full machine of lightly used dishes (no eggs, for example).
dreamcompiler 3y ago
You can make your own from e.g. Dawn and baking soda. The reason you can't use pure Dawn is that it would fill your dishwasher with foam.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Why bother? Powder dish detergent is so damn cheap and works just as well as any other dish detergent product, and better than packs because those don't use the prewash cycle properly.

jheriko 3y ago

i like the story, but i cant help but notice that the "cassette" is solving a non-existent problem who the fuck has to measure a dishwasher tablet?

uxp100 3y ago
Do you understand it’s a micro countertop dishwasher, that would use less detergent than a full size?
hengistbury 3y ago
This dishwasher is much smaller, so would require smaller tablets to work work efficiently. Certainly possible, and Daan Tech sell small tablets for this use. One benefit of measured detergent is that the wash cycle can dispense the correct amount for different parts of the cycle, for example the pre-wash can dispense a small amount and the main cycle can dispense a larger amount. The rinse at the end can dispense rinse aid. This system offers more control to the machine about when fluids are used, though it would be much better to include refillable tanks instead of the cassette system. I own a Bob and use powder since mine has stopped pumping detergent...
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  Maybe I am just naive, but when I had a table top dishwasher like that I just threw in a tablet or half a tablet depending the dirtiness and amount of dishes and I never had problems. Only reason I changed to full size one was because I got tired of pouring the water in each time
skerit 3y ago
I got a new Miele dishwasher, which is able to use "PowerDisks". I actually find it quite handy.
benjijay 3y ago
It seems that one cassette holds enough detergent for 30 washes, so presumably you'd want to measure 1/30th of the reservoir per load. Just a guess.

jheriko 3y ago

the story is fun, but i can't help but notice the justification for the cassette to being with is nonsense - solving a problem nobody ever had. who the fuck has to measure out a dishwasher tablet? nobody is who

Waterluvian 3y ago

For being sleek and compact, that main door sure is bulbous. Anyone know what’s inside it? The recessed window makes it look like it’s superfluous.

ryankrage77 3y ago
There's some insulation, as it can heat the water.

globular-toast 3y ago

Something doesn't add up here. It says £43 for 90 washes, but the picture shows six cartridges which is 180 washes? On top of that, it contains rinse aid and enough deep cleaning for those 180 washes. Compared to dishwasher tablets from the supermarket it looks like 180 would cost from about £15 for supermarket own brand, all the way up to about £32 for the most expensive. Then on top of that you have the rinse aid, deep cleaner and salt, which seems to account for the other £10. Obviously this thing is significantly smaller but I think the assumption is you'd be running the big dishwasher half empty every day anyway so the cost would be the same. So it doesn't seem to be that far off price wise? I find dishwashers in general to be an example of convenience addiction. The amount of dishes this thing can hold I could wash up by hand in about 5 minutes and, unlike the dishwasher, I can guarantee I'll do it properly. People forget that washing up is a skill like anything else that you can get good at. It only takes a bit of practice. But once you use a dishwasher and forget how to do it yourself you get addicted and think you can't live without it.

alright2565 3y ago
I'm not familiar with mini dishwashers like Bob, but the full size ones are definitely not a "convenience addiction". You may be capable and skilled at using the two/three-sink method for washing up, but the general population isn't and will instead run the tap and waste far greater amounts of heat and water than a dishwasher would require.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Yeah I'm not capable/skilled at playing the piano either because, guess what, I don't play the piano. Are you seriously suggesting washing dishes is some next-level human skill? Dishwasher manufacturers will eagerly tell you they use less water than hand washing. But they're more quiet about the fact that they use more energy. I've honestly never heard anyone complain about their water bill.

masto 3y ago

I was about to make an argument that "there's no DRM" because it's a simple flash memory chip used to keep track of how much detergent is left, and it's totally unencrypted... But wait, could it be that the reason for the bizarre "xor 0x50" is so that they have a "technological protection measure" in place to trigger anti-circumvention rules? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Information_Society_Directive_2001#Technological_protection_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Information_Soci...)

fennecbutt 3y ago
If a regular consumer can't bypass it by themselves then it's drm. If it requires a bypass by the consumer at all then it's drm.

ccppurcell 3y ago

I don't understand the casette pitch. I'm filling the dishwasher anyway. The tablet is like 1 more item in the dishwasher, not having to do that is below 1% improvement.

ryanmcbride 3y ago

Seeing people defend the cassettes is weird. Here's how I look at it: 1. The company say's being eco friendly is important to them. 2. They manufacture, sell, and ship expensive plastic containers for their detergent. 3. The machines don't necessarily need this specific detergent, and will work fine by leaving in one of the "cassettes" and just using normal dish detergent. This means that the cassettes were never necessary, and are purely a separate stream of income for the company. Literally the printer ink method. Which means they didn't have to produce this plastic waste at all, they could have just allowed it to use a smaller amount of liquid or powder detergent (pre-portioned pods are probably too much detergent). Hell even if they wanted to continue with the printer ink approach, they could have used powder detergent in little wax-lined cardboard containers. Regardless of how well they're recycling or re-using the cassettes returned to them, the cassettes never needed to exist. It's more plastic taking up more space in more polluting delivery trucks. At the end of the day this company is selling a dishwasher and a detergent subscription service. It's not the worst thing out there and it's not creating nearly as much plastic waste as the fishing industry but it's still a company greenwashing itself to sell you more garbage.

acomjean 3y ago
Maybe seems like "cheating" to refill as it messes with the business model. My experiences are with Printers and ink. A studio I'm a member of inherited a big epson4880 printer. Its a big heavy machine, well built. It came with a "chip resetter" tool for refilling ink carts. The printer seems to know that its using non-epson inks (it warns me on the little display, and I have to click through) but it allows them (right now filled with cleaning solution, but thats another storry). Newer printers don't allow this (unless you are in Europe). Apparently they are running out of DRM chips, and some of the new printers require a firmware update to use new ink cartridges using the older chips. One can see a day when these printers/dishwashers no longer have ink/detergents manufactured for them, becoming big paperweights. Companies never seem to want offer more expensive products with cheaper use costs. Maybe the problem is people don't think about it enough? Where I live the markets have 2 prices listed on the shelves. 1) the cost of the package, 2) the cost per unit of the package (eg cost per oz, cost per pill etc..). Its much easier to compare. [1] https://shop.inkjetmall.com/Epson-SureColor-P900 https://shop.inkjetmall.com/Epson-SureColor-P900 "We are currently supplying the European Region versions of this printer model. They can work with a simple chip resetter and refillable cartridges (which we do not supply). Unfortunately, the USA Region versions of this printer have been designed by EPSON to prevent the use of non-EPSON chips and are designed to prevent the use of a chip resetter. As a result, we do not believe any 3rd party solutions may become available for the USA region printers for some considerable time until the anti-3rd party mechanism that prevents the use of 3rd party products is discovered and circumvented.."