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I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk abo

I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US military software engineer even self immolated recently in protest of what's happening. I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a very human situation and we are all at risk of falling into these kinds of collective behaviors.

McNutty 3y ago
Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.
- dang 3y ago
  HN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023) Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about the principles we use to decide these questions more generally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
  - leereeves 3y ago
    If this topic merits discussion on HN, can you do something about the flagging? It seems like someone is flagging every comment to prevent discussion.
    - dang 3y ago
      Edit: oh, you were asking about comments. In my haste I missed that and thought you were asking about submissions. There are lots of comments in this thread that aren't flagged, so discussion isn't being prevented. It's true that a lot of the earlier comments were flagged, but that was (or should be) because they were flamebait. It's one of the downsides of internet commenting that the flameiest and most reflexive comments appear first in a thread—because those reactions are the quickest to flare up. Better, more reflective comments always take longer [1]. This goes 1000x for a topic like this one, unfortunately. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... -- original reply -- I've answered that several times in the links I listed; can you take a look and, if there's something specific I haven't addressed, let me know? (I don't mean to be dismissive—it just takes a surprising amount of time to write those things and I can't do it at the moment.)
      - rat9988 3y ago
        It's surprisingly dismissive. It's not that because not all of the comments aren't flagged that discussion isn't being prevented. And the (or should be) does most of the work when you talk about flagged are flagged because they were flamebait. I'm pretty sure it's not an easy task to moderate HN. But I'm still surprised by the answer here.
        dang 3y ago
        I'm sorry, but I don't follow your point here. Keep in mind that I was commenting about the situation very early in the thread. My comment applies only to the very first comments that got posted—perhaps the first couple dozen—no later.
- Qem 3y ago
  For me this article raised a estimation problem that I deem as interesting as the German tank problem[1]. I took a crack at it. Wish to see what people with better statistical knowledge than me think of the data and the conclusions. I think my maths/stats intuition for problems like this is OK, but I lack rigour. [1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem
- aaomidi 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - McNutty 3y ago
    [flagged]
- ciconia 3y ago
  > This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. What's a political post? What's "regular news"? And where do you draw the line? If not interested, you can just move on and ignore. There's plenty of AI articles all over the front page.
  - McNutty 3y ago
    What is the appropriate number of times to "just move on and ignore" before finally deciding to say something because the integrity of hn as a platform is at risk?
    - phone8675309 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - brookst 3y ago
      Is the integrity at risk from allowing difficult controversial subjects? Or from prohibiting them?
      - hef19898 3y ago
        The latter. There are two recent topics that ended in flagging and really low quality doscussions, no curiosity, no open mindedness and sometimes utter disregard of human rights: Caste based discrimination and the war in Gaza. The latter usually has "pro-Gaza" submissions flagged even faster than the former had for stuff critizing castes and caste based discrimination. I am torn, in the one hand those discussions are often rightfully flagged for the coments themselves. On the other hand, this shows a general social development I don't like, especially since HN used to be, or at least is suppossed to be, a place where even hairy topics can be discussed. And I think the "tech" community at large would only benefi from multiple views on those subjects.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  We know and work with Israelis and former Palestinians, and it is difficult enough to navigate the stresses without the added complexity of each side reading totally different news outlets and never talking about it in the same forums. I always try to handle this stuff at work (and political issues are absolutely part of the lunchtime tapestry that impacts the cohesion of engineering teams) by sticking to the facts, but we need to agree on some shared reality for the facts to be a safe "home base" for diplomatic answers to the tough questions we can't avoid... I think it is very important for some amount of news to leak into the common spaces, as long as we can keep from arguing about it on a level higher than its veracity or importance.
  - incognos 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - sharikous 3y ago
      Even accepting that, you can ask what is the limit after which you can say that the occupied does morally reprehensible things
      - incognos 3y ago
        How about when the occupier does morally reprehensible things? how should you react? turn the other cheek? Thank you sir, may I have another... (https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc....) Notably: The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that: The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory. Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period. The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation. The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation. The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces. Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited. Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited. Collective punishment is prohibited. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited. The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited. The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities. Cultural property must be respected. People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charg ed with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible). Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty. None of which are being respected.... so I ask again, who is morally reprehensible? and if you are referring to the debunked lies about october 7th, I urge you to read up
- alexvoda 3y ago
  I believe it is impossible to disentangle non-politics (tech included) from politics because that in itself is a political stance.
  - Wolfenstein98k 3y ago
    That's actually the only way to disentangle it - by disentangling it. "colour-blindness is racism" is postmodernist garbage. Same for "everything is politics", a derivative of the same impulse. You aren't employed to discuss the relative merits of the Hutus or the Tutsis, whether they're at peace or at war!
  - CivBase 3y ago
    When people talk about "politics" they aren't talking about it conceptually. They are talking about the myriad of controversial topics that are fiercely argued about by state political leaders and prominent political parties. But that's a mouthful so we call it "politics". Using the common meaning of "politics", it's very easy to sort the majority of subjects into "politics" and "non-politics".
  - throwawayhate 3y ago
    It took me a while to understand that "not being into politics" or "a political" is still a form of politics. Also, there is very little politics practiced without technology, so it can be harder to make it inextricable.
- immibis 3y ago
  Unfortunately, everything is politics and politics is inescapable. "Ignoring politics" is also a political action and a political statement.
  - brookst 3y ago
    Indeed. Zone of Interest is a very impressive film that really explores the idea of ignoring politics.
  - Wolfenstein98k 3y ago
    No it isn't. You are perhaps obligated to take an interest in your own democracy, although that doesn't mean you're obligated to inject it into your workplace and every facet of life. You are by no means obligated to take an interest in wars on other continents. Especially not to subject your poor coworkers to your Gell-Man Amnesia-ridden opinions on it!
    - jakupovic 3y ago
      This country is actively involved in M.E. discussions and actions. There is no escaping it.
    - bjourne 3y ago
      > You are by no means obligated to take an interest in wars on other continents. The Americans who helped stop Hitler would like to have a word with you.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hathym 3y ago
  The article discussing Russia's invasion of Ukraine has received a significant amount of engagement and upvotes on Hacker News. To be frank, I didn't expect that you would share a similar comment about this particular topic, would you?
- steve_gh 3y ago
  By reading the comments on this post I have learned about non-central hypergeometric distributions - which I didn't know about (and turn out to be relevant to a bunch of problems I am thinking about for my job). HN readers and contributors at least try to think of themselves as the grown-ups in the room. So, by having conversations about contentious topics in a civilized and respectful way, we learn things.
- incognos 3y ago
  Did you strongly disagree on the numerous posts related to Ukraine and Russia which have appeared on this forum in the past? or is it the topic that bothers you? You cannot close your eyes to event in which your country is complicit. Ignorance is not an excuse.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Perhaps. But if not us then who? Maybe it's not a matter of who we are, but who we should be? Easier said than done? Oh yeah, we're soft and lazy from a life diet high on - literally - coconvenience. Put another way, when we collectively decide "we can't talk about X or Y" the control of that topic gets outsourced: outsourced to "leaders" who evidently are less capable. In short, yes there is risk. But the alternatives consistently qualify as insanity.
- feedforward 3y ago
  We see endless posts about the Chinese, the Russians and so on - now it is about Israel though so no more "political posts".
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  I agree with this. With many social networks, we have many platforms to discuss politics directly. IMHO, HN should keep to tech and not politics, with an exception of politics related to tech (eg. EU trying to destroy e2e encryption,... again,... government hacks, etc). We have literally everywhere else to pick sides and point fingers.
- deleted 3y ago
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l3mure 3y ago
Yeah, there's plenty of relevant tech angles, whether that's Israelis utilizing AI to pick targets while acknowledging they know exactly how many civilians they're going to kill in the process [1], Israeli spyware being used to hack people everywhere in the world, etc. [1] https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal...
deleted 3y ago
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aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
throwawayhate 3y ago
[flagged]
- YZF 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bjourne 3y ago
    If you think it is not about punishment or retribution you have not listened to what Israel's own leaders have said. ""I am personally proud of the ruins in Gaza. [...] every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did." https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 What the Israelis are doing now is no different from what the Romans did to quell various rebellions, what the British Empire did in their colonies, or what the Nazis did to the Warsaw ghetto after the uprising.
    - YZF 3y ago
      I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country. Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in Israeli politics. Yes. That proves nothing. Also many of those voices were heard in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th that was so brutal, barbaric, and shocking, that "blood was boiling" and emotions ran high. What you're saying here is basically blood libel. To take your analogies, it's not different than the stories about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children. It's an antisemitic lie in the form you present it. That people have the audacity to draw comparisons between what the Nazis did to the Jews and what's going on in Gaza is mind boggling.
      - bjourne 3y ago
        How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" Israel's fucking prime minister. "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" Israel's president. You have 100 Israeli doctors calling for Israel to bomb a hospital: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctors-calls-for-bombing-al-shifa-hospital-in-gaza/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctor... It is very clear that what is going on is fueled by vengeance. Israel knows it can't destroy Hamas, but it can make the civilians suffer which it thinks will act as a deterrent. "Was it worth it?" they ask and hope that future Palestinians will answer "No". You can accuse me of blood libel all you want, but this is exactly what the Nazis did to resistance groups in the territories they occupied. And the German people cheered them on, just like the Israelis do now.
sitkack 3y ago
Condolences to his family, Aaron murdered a hero. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1234005058/what-we-know-about-the-airman-who-immolated-himself-in-front-of-the-israeli-emba https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1234005058/what-we-know-about...
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Why do you classify his death as a murder and not a suicide? To me it just looked like a foolish act.
whiterknight 3y ago
This line of reasoning is very similar to an infamous post where stackoverflow was used to promote the owners views on elections, and was a watershed moment in that site losing credibility and interest.
deleted 3y ago
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drc500free 3y ago
There is an interesting and delicate conversation about how a twenty-something engineer in the military ends up frequenting anti-military and anti-democracy subreddits. I think that fits in with hn. There is another interesting and delicate conversation about what that person thought about Gaza and about Israeli Jews, and where those ideas came from. He posted on Reddit that Hamas's stated intent to destroy Israel - where 7 million Jews live - would not count as genocide. That is a higher percentage than the extermination of 6 million European Jews in the Holocaust, when there were more Jews alive than now. He based this on the belief that Israel is a US and UK colony, which is hard to take seriously either literally (since it isn't) or figuratively (since none of the many non-middle-eastern waves of Jewish refugees came from the US or UK). He also had a deeply held belief that the violence killing 1% of Palestinians in Gaza IS a genocide (and I think it's safe to assume that he fully accepted Hamas's claims that 30k people have died, and fully rejected IDF's claims that 12k of those were Hamas militants). So deeply held that he burned himself to death over it. To me, the inconsistency of holding those two beliefs so strongly at the same time is a sign of antisemitism believed more deeply than I personally believe in anything. And that contradiction does not survive a moment's rational thought - to me at least. Which makes me assume that someone whose profession is built around thinking rationally was simply unable to think rationally about the Israel-Gaza conflict and see the inherent asymmetry of what he was saying. So I think there is a discussion here. Not about whether he was right that the devastation in Gaza amounts to a genocide, or right about whether democracy is evil, or right about whether America is evil. But the limits of rationality compared to how engineers usually think about themselves, and whether we are more or less susceptible than anyone else when it comes to online echo chambers. And it is incredibly hard to have that conversation without getting into flame wars. Or projecting our personal beliefs about the Israel/Palestine conflict to the point that it prevents useful discourse.
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  In every legal system, intent without capacity is not considered to be intent. It is so laughable and pathetic, frankly, that you brought it up at all.
  - 3y ago
emptyfile 3y ago
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McNutty 3y ago

Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.

dang 3y ago
HN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023) Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about the principles we use to decide these questions more generally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
- leereeves 3y ago
  If this topic merits discussion on HN, can you do something about the flagging? It seems like someone is flagging every comment to prevent discussion.
  - dang 3y ago
    Edit: oh, you were asking about comments. In my haste I missed that and thought you were asking about submissions. There are lots of comments in this thread that aren't flagged, so discussion isn't being prevented. It's true that a lot of the earlier comments were flagged, but that was (or should be) because they were flamebait. It's one of the downsides of internet commenting that the flameiest and most reflexive comments appear first in a thread—because those reactions are the quickest to flare up. Better, more reflective comments always take longer [1]. This goes 1000x for a topic like this one, unfortunately. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... -- original reply -- I've answered that several times in the links I listed; can you take a look and, if there's something specific I haven't addressed, let me know? (I don't mean to be dismissive—it just takes a surprising amount of time to write those things and I can't do it at the moment.)
    - rat9988 3y ago
      It's surprisingly dismissive. It's not that because not all of the comments aren't flagged that discussion isn't being prevented. And the (or should be) does most of the work when you talk about flagged are flagged because they were flamebait. I'm pretty sure it's not an easy task to moderate HN. But I'm still surprised by the answer here.
      - dang 3y ago
        I'm sorry, but I don't follow your point here. Keep in mind that I was commenting about the situation very early in the thread. My comment applies only to the very first comments that got posted—perhaps the first couple dozen—no later.
Qem 3y ago
For me this article raised a estimation problem that I deem as interesting as the German tank problem[1]. I took a crack at it. Wish to see what people with better statistical knowledge than me think of the data and the conclusions. I think my maths/stats intuition for problems like this is OK, but I lack rigour. [1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem
aaomidi 3y ago
[flagged]
- McNutty 3y ago
  [flagged]
ciconia 3y ago
> This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. What's a political post? What's "regular news"? And where do you draw the line? If not interested, you can just move on and ignore. There's plenty of AI articles all over the front page.
- McNutty 3y ago
  What is the appropriate number of times to "just move on and ignore" before finally deciding to say something because the integrity of hn as a platform is at risk?
  - phone8675309 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - brookst 3y ago
    Is the integrity at risk from allowing difficult controversial subjects? Or from prohibiting them?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      The latter. There are two recent topics that ended in flagging and really low quality doscussions, no curiosity, no open mindedness and sometimes utter disregard of human rights: Caste based discrimination and the war in Gaza. The latter usually has "pro-Gaza" submissions flagged even faster than the former had for stuff critizing castes and caste based discrimination. I am torn, in the one hand those discussions are often rightfully flagged for the coments themselves. On the other hand, this shows a general social development I don't like, especially since HN used to be, or at least is suppossed to be, a place where even hairy topics can be discussed. And I think the "tech" community at large would only benefi from multiple views on those subjects.
whatshisface 3y ago
We know and work with Israelis and former Palestinians, and it is difficult enough to navigate the stresses without the added complexity of each side reading totally different news outlets and never talking about it in the same forums. I always try to handle this stuff at work (and political issues are absolutely part of the lunchtime tapestry that impacts the cohesion of engineering teams) by sticking to the facts, but we need to agree on some shared reality for the facts to be a safe "home base" for diplomatic answers to the tough questions we can't avoid... I think it is very important for some amount of news to leak into the common spaces, as long as we can keep from arguing about it on a level higher than its veracity or importance.
- incognos 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - sharikous 3y ago
    Even accepting that, you can ask what is the limit after which you can say that the occupied does morally reprehensible things
    - incognos 3y ago
      How about when the occupier does morally reprehensible things? how should you react? turn the other cheek? Thank you sir, may I have another... (https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc....) Notably: The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that: The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory. Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period. The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation. The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation. The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces. Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited. Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited. Collective punishment is prohibited. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited. The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited. The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities. Cultural property must be respected. People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charg ed with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible). Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty. None of which are being respected.... so I ask again, who is morally reprehensible? and if you are referring to the debunked lies about october 7th, I urge you to read up
alexvoda 3y ago
I believe it is impossible to disentangle non-politics (tech included) from politics because that in itself is a political stance.
- Wolfenstein98k 3y ago
  That's actually the only way to disentangle it - by disentangling it. "colour-blindness is racism" is postmodernist garbage. Same for "everything is politics", a derivative of the same impulse. You aren't employed to discuss the relative merits of the Hutus or the Tutsis, whether they're at peace or at war!
- CivBase 3y ago
  When people talk about "politics" they aren't talking about it conceptually. They are talking about the myriad of controversial topics that are fiercely argued about by state political leaders and prominent political parties. But that's a mouthful so we call it "politics". Using the common meaning of "politics", it's very easy to sort the majority of subjects into "politics" and "non-politics".
- throwawayhate 3y ago
  It took me a while to understand that "not being into politics" or "a political" is still a form of politics. Also, there is very little politics practiced without technology, so it can be harder to make it inextricable.
immibis 3y ago
Unfortunately, everything is politics and politics is inescapable. "Ignoring politics" is also a political action and a political statement.
- brookst 3y ago
  Indeed. Zone of Interest is a very impressive film that really explores the idea of ignoring politics.
- Wolfenstein98k 3y ago
  No it isn't. You are perhaps obligated to take an interest in your own democracy, although that doesn't mean you're obligated to inject it into your workplace and every facet of life. You are by no means obligated to take an interest in wars on other continents. Especially not to subject your poor coworkers to your Gell-Man Amnesia-ridden opinions on it!
  - jakupovic 3y ago
    This country is actively involved in M.E. discussions and actions. There is no escaping it.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    > You are by no means obligated to take an interest in wars on other continents. The Americans who helped stop Hitler would like to have a word with you.
deleted 3y ago
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hathym 3y ago
The article discussing Russia's invasion of Ukraine has received a significant amount of engagement and upvotes on Hacker News. To be frank, I didn't expect that you would share a similar comment about this particular topic, would you?
steve_gh 3y ago
By reading the comments on this post I have learned about non-central hypergeometric distributions - which I didn't know about (and turn out to be relevant to a bunch of problems I am thinking about for my job). HN readers and contributors at least try to think of themselves as the grown-ups in the room. So, by having conversations about contentious topics in a civilized and respectful way, we learn things.
incognos 3y ago
Did you strongly disagree on the numerous posts related to Ukraine and Russia which have appeared on this forum in the past? or is it the topic that bothers you? You cannot close your eyes to event in which your country is complicit. Ignorance is not an excuse.
chiefalchemist 3y ago
Perhaps. But if not us then who? Maybe it's not a matter of who we are, but who we should be? Easier said than done? Oh yeah, we're soft and lazy from a life diet high on - literally - coconvenience. Put another way, when we collectively decide "we can't talk about X or Y" the control of that topic gets outsourced: outsourced to "leaders" who evidently are less capable. In short, yes there is risk. But the alternatives consistently qualify as insanity.
feedforward 3y ago
We see endless posts about the Chinese, the Russians and so on - now it is about Israel though so no more "political posts".
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
I agree with this. With many social networks, we have many platforms to discuss politics directly. IMHO, HN should keep to tech and not politics, with an exception of politics related to tech (eg. EU trying to destroy e2e encryption,... again,... government hacks, etc). We have literally everywhere else to pick sides and point fingers.
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l3mure 3y ago

Yeah, there's plenty of relevant tech angles, whether that's Israelis utilizing AI to pick targets while acknowledging they know exactly how many civilians they're going to kill in the process [1], Israeli spyware being used to hack people everywhere in the world, etc. [1] https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal...

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aaron695 3y ago

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throwawayhate 3y ago

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YZF 3y ago
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- bjourne 3y ago
  If you think it is not about punishment or retribution you have not listened to what Israel's own leaders have said. ""I am personally proud of the ruins in Gaza. [...] every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did." https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1760548502348701804 What the Israelis are doing now is no different from what the Romans did to quell various rebellions, what the British Empire did in their colonies, or what the Nazis did to the Warsaw ghetto after the uprising.
  - YZF 3y ago
    I speak Hebrew and I listen to a broad range of voices coming out of Israel. Do you? If you tell me what country you're from I'll try the same trick on you, take some selective voices from your "leadership" and present them as if they're policy or the official position of your country. Punishment or retribution is not Israel's policy here and is not what's being executed on the ground. Are there some crazy voices in Israeli politics. Yes. That proves nothing. Also many of those voices were heard in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7th that was so brutal, barbaric, and shocking, that "blood was boiling" and emotions ran high. What you're saying here is basically blood libel. To take your analogies, it's not different than the stories about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children. It's an antisemitic lie in the form you present it. That people have the audacity to draw comparisons between what the Nazis did to the Jews and what's going on in Gaza is mind boggling.
    - bjourne 3y ago
      How can you claim that what a minister says is not indicative of government policy? How come you are in a better position to interpret government policy than the ministers themselves? "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed ... we are fighting against human animals" - Israel's defense minister. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" Israel's fucking prime minister. "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible" Israel's president. You have 100 Israeli doctors calling for Israel to bomb a hospital: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctors-calls-for-bombing-al-shifa-hospital-in-gaza/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231106-100-israel-doctor... It is very clear that what is going on is fueled by vengeance. Israel knows it can't destroy Hamas, but it can make the civilians suffer which it thinks will act as a deterrent. "Was it worth it?" they ask and hope that future Palestinians will answer "No". You can accuse me of blood libel all you want, but this is exactly what the Nazis did to resistance groups in the territories they occupied. And the German people cheered them on, just like the Israelis do now.

sitkack 3y ago

Condolences to his family, Aaron murdered a hero. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1234005058/what-we-know-about-the-airman-who-immolated-himself-in-front-of-the-israeli-emba https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1234005058/what-we-know-about...

hellojesus 3y ago
Why do you classify his death as a murder and not a suicide? To me it just looked like a foolish act.

whiterknight 3y ago

This line of reasoning is very similar to an infamous post where stackoverflow was used to promote the owners views on elections, and was a watershed moment in that site losing credibility and interest.

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drc500free 3y ago

There is an interesting and delicate conversation about how a twenty-something engineer in the military ends up frequenting anti-military and anti-democracy subreddits. I think that fits in with hn. There is another interesting and delicate conversation about what that person thought about Gaza and about Israeli Jews, and where those ideas came from. He posted on Reddit that Hamas's stated intent to destroy Israel - where 7 million Jews live - would not count as genocide. That is a higher percentage than the extermination of 6 million European Jews in the Holocaust, when there were more Jews alive than now. He based this on the belief that Israel is a US and UK colony, which is hard to take seriously either literally (since it isn't) or figuratively (since none of the many non-middle-eastern waves of Jewish refugees came from the US or UK). He also had a deeply held belief that the violence killing 1% of Palestinians in Gaza IS a genocide (and I think it's safe to assume that he fully accepted Hamas's claims that 30k people have died, and fully rejected IDF's claims that 12k of those were Hamas militants). So deeply held that he burned himself to death over it. To me, the inconsistency of holding those two beliefs so strongly at the same time is a sign of antisemitism believed more deeply than I personally believe in anything. And that contradiction does not survive a moment's rational thought - to me at least. Which makes me assume that someone whose profession is built around thinking rationally was simply unable to think rationally about the Israel-Gaza conflict and see the inherent asymmetry of what he was saying. So I think there is a discussion here. Not about whether he was right that the devastation in Gaza amounts to a genocide, or right about whether democracy is evil, or right about whether America is evil. But the limits of rationality compared to how engineers usually think about themselves, and whether we are more or less susceptible than anyone else when it comes to online echo chambers. And it is incredibly hard to have that conversation without getting into flame wars. Or projecting our personal beliefs about the Israel/Palestine conflict to the point that it prevents useful discourse.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
In every legal system, intent without capacity is not considered to be intent. It is so laughable and pathetic, frankly, that you brought it up at all.
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emptyfile 3y ago

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